Youth and the Extraordinary Form

[floresco]

The Episcopal liturgy is also based on the TLM.
Having studied the differences between the EF and the OF, it should be obvious to anyone that certain parts were removed. Not parts of the Consecration, but Offertory Prayers and such. The new version of the OF that came out last year is actually even far more closer to the Latin Mass than many realize.
Part of the problem is having an historical understanding of the formation of liturgy, both from Catholic and Protestant churches. If one understands that, they would not make rash statements like “the OF is based on Luther’s Mass”. And a “feeling” one has when one attends a Lutheran service just doesn’t cut it. I asked for documentation, and never got it because none exists.

I think claims that the OF is based on a Lutheran or Anglican service are due to oversimplification. Perhaps you have come across the book by Michael Davies (a Catholic in good standing) called Cranmer’s Godly Order: The Destruction of Catholicism Through Liturgical Change. As I understand his thesis, he claims that the OF is based on liturgical principles similar to those used in developing the Anglican liturgy. If this topic is of interest to you, I recommend this book. You can always expect books by this author to be well-researched.

 

[JustaServant]

I think claims that the OF is based on a Lutheran or Anglican service are due to oversimplification. Perhaps you have come across the book by Michael Davies (a Catholic in good standing) called Cranmer’s Godly Order: The Destruction of Catholicism Through Liturgical Change. As I understand his thesis, he claims that the OF is based on liturgical principles similar to those used in developing the Anglican liturgy. If this topic is of interest to you, I recommend this book. You can always expect books by this author to be well-researched.

I have a few books by Davies in my library, Cramners Gody Order is among them, although its more of a booklet.
Had to have something to replace all those Baptist books I used to have.

 

[floresco]

I have a few books by Davies in my library, Cramners Gody Order is among them, although its more of a booklet.
Had to have something to replace all those Baptist books I used to have.

Then you know what I am talking about. Good. I suspect that this is the theory that people are referring to when they say that the OF is based on the Anglican service. The actual theory put forward by Davies makes more sense. Does this match your assessment?

 

[MissRose73]

If my diocese offered an EF Mass that was in Communion with Rome, I would gladly go without hesitation. I am in my late 30’s and I am so blessed to be able to go to the EF Mass even if it involves some traveling on my part but with my current work schedule, I am not able to go to an EF Mass but I do try to search out Ordinary Form done as reverently as possible.

 

[10thCrusader]

If my diocese offered an EF Mass that was in Communion with Rome, I would gladly go without hesitation. I am in my late 30’s and I am so blessed to be able to go to the EF Mass even if it involves some traveling on my part but with my current work schedule, I am not able to go to an EF Mass but I do try to search out Ordinary Form done as reverently as possible.

You might try finding other people who think the same and petitioning your local Bishop about it. We did this in my old diocese, where everything was super-liberal, and it was during the time when all we had going for us was Ecclesia Dei. We got the Tridentine Latin Mass. First only on two Sundays, but later they added the other Sundays (in other churches - we were a spread-out country diocese.). It only took about 30 people on the petition and a couple of meetings of our representatives with the Bishop…

Now you have Pope Benedict XVI, who is very friendly to the Tridentine Latin Mass, so you have even more of a leg to stand on.

 

[MissRose73]

You might try finding other people who think the same and petitioning your local Bishop about it. We did this in my old diocese, where everything was super-liberal, and it was during the time when all we had going for us was Ecclesia Dei. We got the Tridentine Latin Mass. First only on two Sundays, but later they added the other Sundays (in other churches - we were a spread-out country diocese.). It only took about 30 people on the petition and a couple of meetings of our representatives with the Bishop…

Now you have Pope Benedict XVI, who is very friendly to the Tridentine Latin Mass, so you have even more of a leg to stand on.

I have written to the local diocese and bishop, and did not get a favorable reply regarding getting the TLM here. It is hard to find other Catholics in my diocese that support the TLM, maybe they are out there and cannot be easily found.

When I wrote to the bishop of the neighboring diocese (Lansing Michigan) who supports the EF Mass, and celebrates himself from time to time, he wrote me back personally with a positive reply. If only I was able to live in that bishop’s diocese as there are multiple parishes that offer at least 1 TLM weekly (and some also a few days a week have daily TLMs, some even for Holy Days), some offer a few TLM’s a month, and there is even a parish that is EF Mass only that meets in the crypt of the diocesan cathedral that may have around 100 or so in attendance weekly.

 

[Cat]

Cat, you have really hit the nail on the head here. This supports my whole observation about the youth and the Tridentine Latin Mass.

Note: So what’s wrong with Gregorian chant? I have sung in a schola without organ for a Solemn High Latin Mass before. It was a little country church where there wasn’t anyone who could play the organ.

Most people can’t sing it, and most people don’t know how to sing it. This will possibly be alleviated in the future if more young people go to college and learn about Gregorian chant. The key words are “In the future.” People can’t sing what they don’t know.

As I mentioned previously, the Novus Ordo Mass was formulated in the 1960’s to make it more relevant to the times, so it did appeal to the “boomer” generation and got them back into the Church (for the most part). Although there were a significant number of people who left the Church because of the changes to the Mass (and they were significant). Like I said, even secular society made a movie about the controversy.
youtube.com/watch?v=3i_Pm1iPkR4

OK, here’s where I must disagree. It’s true you can get them to church while they’re in High School or home from College, Christmas, Easter, etc. but even you admit this sort of music doesn’t really appeal to them. It’s old fogey music in their eyes. You think you’re hanging on to your youth, but it’s the boomers that have become the “squares,” the Establishment. I was the “wave” generation, and for us there was nothing more embarrassing than an aging hippie.

Once they become young adults they are looking with something with more depth, and certainly not something driven by nostalgia for the “flower power” days. This is why when they become young adults they are gravitating to the Tridentine Latin Mass, especially the young adult men.

As a side note, if young Catholic women are looking to get married, you might want to go to the Tridentine Latin Mass in your area. There’s always a large crowd of single, young adult men.

Forgive me. What I meant is that boomers who have YOUNG children and grandchildren will no doubt bring them to church with them. Yes, they might just leave them home with a relative or sitter, but that’s doubtful. They’ll just pack them in the SUV and drive them to church.

There are plenty of boomers born in the late 50s and early 60s who are have young children. It’s amazing how many people are waiting until their late 30s, 40s, or even 50s to have their first children. (Yes, most women in their 50s are no longer fertile, but when a 50-something man gets with a younger woman, he can still father babies.)

And many boomers have grandchildren.

I agree, it’s not likely that boomer parents will be able to persuade their teenaged children to come to church if the teens have not been exposed to church throughout their childhood. It has nothing to do with the music. It’s more about what the teens see as being relevant and useful, and if they haven’t been to church regularly, many don’t see the point.

But hopefully, little children can still be told what to do by their parents and grandparents, at least, most of the time. I believe that we are rapidly losing authority over our children, as more and more parents are abdicating their parental “authority” because they have weird ideas that children shouldn’t have to “obey” an “authority figure,” but should be allowed to lead their parents in helping them to develop naturally and beautifully. I predict a lot of very sad parents in 10-15 years, because their children won’t have any concept of “authority” and may, in fact, be opposed to the concept.

But I digress. I hope I have clarified my original post.

 

[Eric_Olsen]

Most people can’t sing it, and most people don’t know how to sing it. This will possibly be alleviated in the future if more young people go to college and learn about Gregorian chant. The key words are “In the future.” People can’t sing what they don’t know.

thats because they were NEVER taught chant and the majority of OF churches wouldn’t dare even suggest it because it goes agains the grain of the “spirit of v2”.

 

[Eric_Olsen]

actually the OF mass was created to appeal to the protestants.
Bugnini said the church had to remove those stumbling blocks in the mass to make
it more acceptable to them. in other words, water it down.

actually here is the quote and link

“We must strip from our Catholic prayers and from the Catholic liturgy everything which can be the shadow of a stumbling block for our separated brethren that is for the Prostestants.” - Archbishop Annibale Bugnini, main author of the New Mass, L’Osservatore Romano, March 19, 1965 "

catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/newmass/bugnini.html

Cat, you have really hit the nail on the head here. This supports my whole observation about the youth and the Tridentine Latin Mass.

Note: So what’s wrong with Gregorian chant? I have sung in a schola without organ for a Solemn High Latin Mass before. It was a little country church where there wasn’t anyone who could play the organ.

As I mentioned previously, the Novus Ordo Mass was formulated in the 1960’s to make it more relevant to the times, so it did appeal to the “boomer” generation and got them back into the Church (for the most part). Although there were a significant number of people who left the Church because of the changes to the Mass (and they were significant). Like I said, even secular society made a movie about the controversy.
youtube.com/watch?v=3i_Pm1iPkR4

OK, here’s where I must disagree. It’s true you can get them to church while they’re in High School or home from College, Christmas, Easter, etc. but even you admit this sort of music doesn’t really appeal to them. It’s old fogey music in their eyes. You think you’re hanging on to your youth, but it’s the boomers that have become the “squares,” the Establishment. I was the “wave” generation, and for us there was nothing more embarrassing than an aging hippie.

Once they become young adults they are looking with something with more depth, and certainly not something driven by nostalgia for the “flower power” days. This is why when they become young adults they are gravitating to the Tridentine Latin Mass, especially the young adult men.

As a side note, if young Catholic women are looking to get married, you might want to go to the Tridentine Latin Mass in your area. There’s always a large crowd of single, young adult men.

 

[Eric_Olsen]

having been on the Lutheran side of the church for 20 years I can tell you that the OF mass is 99% identical to the Lutheran service.

Exactly, and this is why I asked him for documentation.
The Episcopal liturgy is also based on the TLM.
Having studied the differences between the EF and the OF, it should be obvious to anyone that certain parts were removed. Not parts of the Consecration, but Offertory Prayers and such. The new version of the OF that came out last year is actually even far more closer to the Latin Mass than many realize.
Part of the problem is having an historical understanding of the formation of liturgy, both from Catholic and Protestant churches. If one understands that, they would not make rash statements like “the OF is based on Luther’s Mass”. And a “feeling” one has when one attends a Lutheran service just doesn’t cut it. I asked for documentation, and never got it because none exists.

 

[Melchior_1]

actually the OF mass was created to appeal to the protestants.
Bugnini said the church had to remove those stumbling blocks in the mass to make
it more acceptable to them. in other words, water it down.

actually here is the quote and link

“We must strip from our Catholic prayers and from the Catholic liturgy everything which can be the shadow of a stumbling block for our separated brethren that is for the Prostestants.” - Archbishop Annibale Bugnini, main author of the New Mass, L’Osservatore Romano, March 19, 1965 "

catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/newmass/bugnini.html

Because any time you can quote from a site that posts sede materials you have to do it!

And how about you use the actual quote, instead of the fabricated one:

*Critics falsely attribute to Annibale Bugnini, secretary of the body that Pope Paul VI set up to implement the Second Vatican Council’s decree on the liturgy, the statement: “We must strip from our Catholic prayers and from the Catholic liturgy everything which can be the shadow of a stumbling block for our separated brethren, that is for the Protestants”, and claim that this was published on L’Osservatore Romano of 19 March 1965.

The bad-faith attribution to Father Bugnini of these words is evident, when they are compared with what he actually wrote on that issue of L’Osservatore Romano: “Love of souls and the desire to facilitate in every way, by removing anything that could even remotely be an impediment or make them feel ill at ease, the road to union on the part of separated brethren, has induced the Church to make even these painful sacrifices” (page 6, column 4).

The sacrifices that Father Bugnini felt were painful to make concerned some familiar words omitted from one particular prayer in the Good Friday liturgy. This prayer, previously titled “For the unity of the Church”, is now headed “For the unity of Christians” (the Church is always one). Instead of “heretics” and “schismatics”, it now speaks of “all our brethren who believe in Jesus Christ” and asks "that God may gather and keep together in his one Church all those who seek the truth in sinceri*

 

[Eric_Olsen]

learn to read thoroughly before you make such a statement.

Because any time you can quote from a site that posts sede materials you have to do it!

And how about you use the actual quote, instead of the fabricated one:

 

[Melchior_1]

learn to read thoroughly before you make such a statement.

I did read thoroughly. The site you posted has sede materials on it, and articles questioning the validity of the Ordinary Form. You also used a fabricated quote.

The Archbishop was talking about the Good Friday liturgy, not the entire Mass. Looking at the language of the current Good Friday liturgy, I don’t see what the objection is.

 

[Rich_C]

I keep getting the feeling that I am being held responsible for every trad who has ever behaved like a jerk. People respond to my posts to make points they have argued about with other trads that have little or nothing to do with what I said. It is as if, once I have called myself a trad, I have ceased to be an individual.

You’re not the only one who feels that way, trust me.

Take a month off. It’s like a breath of fresh air. Prayer will put things into perspective. Your standing on CAF counts for nothing here or in Eternity. Use it if it helps you, or don’t. I am on the fence myself.

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

Well I can tell you why it doesn’t work. Because it was quite popular in the 1970s, and by the 1980s I left the CC for almost two decades. Of course I couldn’t see the reason why back then because I was young and cocky.
Here’s what I think: human beings are intrinsically lazy. It’s far easier to warm your behind in a pew and listen to music or a preacher than be required to do things during the worship service (kneeling, standing, crossing, bowing, reciting prayer or a creed, actually getting up for communion instead of waiting for it to come to you.).
At what passes for a mega-church here in our hamlet, they attract scores of young people. They have a “million dollar sound system” lotsa music and concerts…oh an a preacher.
Kids are attracted to that kind of “excitement”.
They won’t accept a hybrid of liturgy and non-liturgical. The two simply do not mix. Take my word for it, I tried it as a Baptist pastor.
When one gets older, one wants something deeper than a “milliion dollar sound system”.
I believe youth can be attacted to the TLM because it is so other than what they experience at the local “Jesus Concert Hall”.
Dare I say, it could be that they are encountering genunine worship.

Having come back to the Church after 20+ years in Protestant land …in mega churches. I came back not because of the sound…or TLM…or any of that…

I came back for the Eucharist. I was drawn back because of the reverence around communion…although at the time I didn’t understand it (or the doctrine of the real presence). I just knew SOMETHING special was happening…and this was at OF Masses…the horror of it all…

If some youth are drawn to the TLM…good. Who said it was just for old ladies:shrug:

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

Note: So what’s wrong with Gregorian chant? I have sung in a schola without organ for a Solemn High Latin Mass before. It was a little country church where there wasn’t anyone who could play the organ.

.

Well…with our new Archbishop coming to Portland and overseeing the Oregon Catholic Press (OCP), you might be seeing more of that…

 

[YoungTradCath]

Well…with our new Archbishop coming to Portland and overseeing the Oregon Catholic Press (OCP), you might be seeing more of that…

Yes, thank God, although I suspect that, since Abp. Sample is a kind and gentle man, it will be a very gradual process.

 

[jacobhalo]

when I went to my first Latin mass in reading i couldn’t believe how full the church was

We have an almost 100% attendance at our Latin mass. The early mass has a ton of young people.

 

[floresco]

You’re not the only one who feels that way, trust me.

Take a month off. It’s like a breath of fresh air. Prayer will put things into perspective. Your standing on CAF counts for nothing here or in Eternity. Use it if it helps you, or don’t. I am on the fence myself.

I think your posts here are a valuable contribution. I hope that you do not become discouraged.

 

[Esrb99]

I did read thoroughly. The site you posted has sede materials on it.

While I agree that certain quotes are constantly taken out of context, Merely being Sede apologetics or being a critical review by a sede does not make an argument or point moot in and of itself, not even in the eyes of the vatican.

As I mentioned in post #37 of this thread, the Vatican itself has liturgists who have praised critical scholarly work regarding the formation of the OF, including those that have been written by sedes such as Fr. Cekada. In fact, members in the vatican have even recommended that more in the church should read it

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=10300082#post10300082

I am not trying to pit one form of the mass over another-heck, I attend the OF most weeks myself! But to say that attempting to take a scholarly critical eye at the OF is un-catholic, then you lump Msgr. Wadsworth and Dr. Alucin Reid in as well.

I would also like to point out that the first person in this thread who spoke in any way polemical about ANY form of the mass was in post #16 (top of page 2) in this thread:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=10295590&postcount=16

and yet when others pointed out how this post was intentionally inciting discourse on the EF over the OF, people jumped and said, “pro-EF/anti-OF” people started it.