Zen Meditation: Theory and Practice

[rinnie]

Hi Sufjon, I just want you to know that I am going away for the week-end (alone time for me and hubby, going to enjoy spa, hot tub, etc need it, it has been a horrible cold winter this year) but anyway want you to know that even though we do not have the same belief’s it was a pure JOY talking to you. I mean that from the bottom of my heart.

One thing that we do have in common is we do agree its not what you know about your faith that counts it is how you live it, and how you treat other people. And if you are anything like what you write, you are doing a very good job.

I am not posititve, but if I am correct Zen Meditation is no doubt a practice of Buddhism. If there IS another kind of Zen out there, there yes I am mistaken. But I believe it is indeed practicing Buddhism. And I also believe Budd, believes in recarnation. I am not sure is your faith believes in reincarnation, but I kind of have a feeling it does because of the drops of water. You can let me know.

I am not sure if this thread will be open or closed when I get back.

But also when I said alot of this is called new age, in this country that is just what it is called. I understand that you are not taught to mask your faith per say, unfortunatly others do. If you say the Occult a Christian knows to run.

Today they have what is called Holistic Medicine, alternative med, etc. Not that all of them are other religion practices. But many mask behind them,

While the Catholic faith do believe in Spiritual healing, always has, it is amazing what a good confession to a Priest can do for the soul. It can rid us of all sins, and it is an amazing feeling to walk out of mass and be completely free from all of your sins. Its like a clean slate, the burden lifted off of your back, a heavy load taken away. You could only imagine what it does for your mental health, alone your physical. Father said not long ago if more Catholic’s would practice their faith, it could cut the health care in half. Unfortunally they do not exercise this right. THey look elseware.

But anyway that is why it is called new age medicine, or new age. I just wanted to make it clear why I said that.

But we do have much differences, We believe that when we die, we are judged by not only a Supreme Being, that person has a name and it is Jesus Christ our loving Father. And yes we do have fear, we have fear that if we kill, steal, etc in this world we may get away with it, but not in the next and will pay for that. That is why we are taught to live a clean and good Christ like life so we can go with our Father in heaven and live in complete happines forever and ever.

We believe there is not end to life, When we die in this world, only the body dies, the soul is lifted up, and if made worthy we can live with our other brothers and sisters who have left this world already in the Lords friendship. That is why no reincarnation for us. Jesus took away death and gives us eternal life. Who would want to come back

We are more to our Father then drop of water in the Ocean, we are full beings that are loved by a Father so much that he would lay down his own life for us. He has counted every single hair on our head, and is the most loving forgiving Father in the world. With a love for us that is so perfect and wonderful it can’t even be imagined in this world, A such a perfect world in the next that the beauty of it can not even be imagined, A world of no pain, no hate, no suffering, no death. That is what our Dear Lord made possible for us. That is why we must live our life the best we can so we can someday come to live with him.

But also he is our Lord and Master. He is our Father, and we will never become him, that is most important that we know this. He created US in his imagine. Not to be him. but to be as much like him as we possible can. And that means to love one another, forgive one another and be kind and turn the other cheek etc.

God bless you and may you have a great week-end/

 

[rinnie]

Cecilianus, It was also great talking to you. I hope I did not insult you in anyway.

If so it was never meant to be that way. If as I said there is another kind of Zen that is not of Buddhism I have never heard of it.

Daily meditation in prayer is completely different from Zen.

What may help you is to google the teachings of the Pope on Zen Buddhism and that will help you more to understand alot of what I have said.

The reason of said Budda is a state of nothingless is at the end there is no where. You just die, In Christianity death is not a state of nothingless, it is the real beginning of a different life, a complete loving life with our True Father in heaven. That is why it is an atheistic System. There is no higher being then oneself.

We can never elevate ourself into our higher being. Which is Jesus Christ. We can never be in fit to even as St John says strap his sandles. He is our creater, he is our beginning and end, He is our everything, We not only Love him, and try to live our life to imitate him we adore him. He is something we know we could never be. But only strive to be a part of.

Like I said earlier, please read up on these things, because when you say thing’s there are others in your faith who do not know their faith well, And then they will say, well, he is the same faith as I, and he says its cool.

As much as we are taught that God loves even others who are not of our faith, and we are taught to love and respect them, we are also taught to stick up for the Teaching’s of the Church and not be swayed by other beliefs. We must stand up for Christ, and if its to be made fun of. or hated, its okay. God will find us the grace to forgive then in our hearts and move on.

That is why it is such a Joy to speak with one and Suijon for a change, for while she does not understand our faith, and is studying it, she isn’t telling us what it teaches, She asks. What does this mean or that.

And I know our faith is complex. That is why we as Christians cannot interpret it for ourself, and God left us the Apostles and thier successors to help us to understand. So please investigate this more, and I am sure you will find out what I am saying is true.

We cannot become God, I am sure you agree with me on that. We can welcome him into our hearts by the power of his Holy Spriit and let his Spirit live through us, but that does not make us in any way equal to him as I said. We do not meditate in the way that Zen is practiced because we do not open our soul and our hearts to anyone or anything except God. We do not let our soul open to any outside source except God, or other things that are not of God could enter. Do you see what I am saying.

The truth is not bedded deep down into us, unless it is by the grace of God. So when we look down deep into our hearts and we are searching for the truth what is Truth. Yes It is God. SO when we meditate and empty ourself that is only because we are looking to fill ourself with what God wants.

He is always the CENTER of our meditation. So I believe that is the easiest way I can say we may empty our hearts of the uglyness and hate and human sins we have, but our mind is never rested and with nothing thoughts as they say. It should always be with good thoughts and thoughts of one thing, Our dear Lord and Savior. Does that make sense to you.

Remember when the mind is completly empty and not full of God you are vulverable to anything that is not of God. Again please take the time to read up on this, and take Suljon’s advice, so you can teach as your Pope teaches.

Again if I insulted you in anyway It was not to hurt you, I only wanted to really get your attention to get you to really read up and understand what you were saying.

Again as I said I am heading out fo the weekend and we may never get a chance to talk again, But hopefully though the years I can talk to the both of you alot

ANd can find I have found 2 new friends. God Bless you both. And for now maybe pray for me also that I can find God’s peace and love with my time alone with my husband. We don’t get that much anymore. We like the rest of the world have work, our dutys with the Church, our kids. and our Mother’s who are getting up in age, etc. Life is sometimes to busy in this world.

Sometimes a mindless TV show, or book, can just be the ticket.

 

[Sufjon]

Hi Sufjon, I just want you to know that I am going away for the week-end (alone time for me and hubby, going to enjoy spa, hot tub, etc need it, it has been a horrible cold winter this year) but anyway want you to know that even though we do not have the same belief’s it was a pure JOY talking to you. I mean that from the bottom of my heart.

One thing that we do have in common is we do agree its not what you know about your faith that counts it is how you live it, and how you treat other people. And if you are anything like what you write, you are doing a very good job.

I am not posititve, but if I am correct Zen Meditation is no doubt a practice of Buddhism. If there IS another kind of Zen out there, there yes I am mistaken. But I believe it is indeed practicing Buddhism. And I also believe Budd, believes in recarnation. I am not sure is your faith believes in reincarnation, but I kind of have a feeling it does because of the drops of water. You can let me know.

I am not sure if this thread will be open or closed when I get back.

But also when I said alot of this is called new age, in this country that is just what it is called. I understand that you are not taught to mask your faith per say, unfortunatly others do. If you say the Occult a Christian knows to run.

Today they have what is called Holistic Medicine, alternative med, etc. Not that all of them are other religion practices. But many mask behind them,

While the Catholic faith do believe in Spiritual healing, always has, it is amazing what a good confession to a Priest can do for the soul. It can rid us of all sins, and it is an amazing feeling to walk out of mass and be completely free from all of your sins. Its like a clean slate, the burden lifted off of your back, a heavy load taken away. You could only imagine what it does for your mental health, alone your physical. Father said not long ago if more Catholic’s would practice their faith, it could cut the health care in half. Unfortunally they do not exercise this right. THey look elseware.

But anyway that is why it is called new age medicine, or new age. I just wanted to make it clear why I said that.

But we do have much differences, We believe that when we die, we are judged by not only a Supreme Being, that person has a name and it is Jesus Christ our loving Father. And yes we do have fear, we have fear that if we kill, steal, etc in this world we may get away with it, but not in the next and will pay for that. That is why we are taught to live a clean and good Christ like life so we can go with our Father in heaven and live in complete happines forever and ever.

We believe there is not end to life, When we die in this world, only the body dies, the soul is lifted up, and if made worthy we can live with our other brothers and sisters who have left this world already in the Lords friendship. That is why no reincarnation for us. Jesus took away death and gives us eternal life. Who would want to come back

We are more to our Father then drop of water in the Ocean, we are full beings that are loved by a Father so much that he would lay down his own life for us. He has counted every single hair on our head, and is the most loving forgiving Father in the world. With a love for us that is so perfect and wonderful it can’t even be imagined in this world, A such a perfect world in the next that the beauty of it can not even be imagined, A world of no pain, no hate, no suffering, no death. That is what our Dear Lord made possible for us. That is why we must live our life the best we can so we can someday come to live with him.

But also he is our Lord and Master. He is our Father, and we will never become him, that is most important that we know this. He created US in his imagine. Not to be him. but to be as much like him as we possible can. And that means to love one another, forgive one another and be kind and turn the other cheek etc.

God bless you and may you have a great week-end/

Hi Rinnie: It’s been great talking to you as well, and have a great time on your trip!

Your friend
Sufjon

 

[SedesDomi]

…I mean I am disagreeing with those schools within Hinduism that do take a pantheistic interpretation…

No Hindu tradition takes a pantheistic interpretation: no Hindu tradition argues for a simple, one-to-one identity of “matter-energy” and “the Divine”. Such an argument would mean that freedom from being limited by “matter-energy” is not possible.

 

[AntiTheist]

OK, now that enough time has passed and the group hug has subsided, perhaps we can get back to discussing my interesting OP without the intrusion of Hindu theology.

 

[ryanoneil]

It’s a well-known fact that our senses take in more information than our brains can process. What our minds do is to form a mental map of the environment, and it’s this map that we’re usually caught up in evaluating, rather than the world that’s in front of our noses. As a result, we’re liable to miss details in the real world, and, in our rush to filter the world through our mental map, we’re very likely to misperceive.

If the world that’s in front of our noses is really more information than our brains can process we are going to misperceive reality by definition (because we miss details), correct?

If so, what is really being realized in meditation then?

That which is mystery, perhaps?

Thanks!

 

[mark_avery]

OK, now that enough time has passed and the group hug has subsided, perhaps we can get back to discussing my interesting OP without the intrusion of Hindu theology.

Have you never really grasped they understanding of actually hearing god,like our lord has said my disciples hear my voice.Just let him in and maybe acknowledge your not always right even if a certain practice serves you well!

peace be upon you,…

 

[AntiTheist]

If the world that’s in front of our noses is really more information than our brains can process we are going to misperceive reality by definition (because we miss details), correct?

If so, what is really being realized in meditation then?

Well, what I’m saying is that by consciously focusing on the present moment, you can expose yourself to more details than you would normally ever take in. You won’t ever get a total picture of your surroundings or a 100% accurate view of reality, but you might greatly increase the amount of reality you perceive.

That which is mystery, perhaps?

I’d be hesitant to describe it as “mystery.” It’s just the real world, rather than the junk in your head.

 

[SedesDomi]

It’s just the real world, rather than the junk in your head.

By “junk in your head,” do you mean images, thoughts, and ideas?

 

[1voice]

Quote:
Originally Posted by gmcbroom
For many, demons simply aren’t seen. That however doesn’t mean they don’t exist, their just beyond the scientific ability to quantifiy or catalogue them.

Well, no. Something that “exists” but doesn’t manifest in any way that is detectable or measurable is no different than something that doesn’t exist at all.

Jesus did amazing things during his lifetime on Earth. Things for which science has no explanation. He did them to prove his credentials. Nicodemus was convinced (he said: we know that you are from God because of the things that you do) … Nicodemus was a very high level … highly educated Jewish religious leader (like a Cardinal or a Bishop today) … Yet … he freely admitted that he, and all of his fellow Jewish leaders, didnt have the first clue as to how to understand how Jesus came to understand and walk in the power that he demonstrated so easily. Jesus’ told him that first of all … "Unless a person is born again (in other words… unless a person allows the spirit of God to indwell him/her and lets God’s spirit guide and increase his/her understanding) … Unless a person is born again he/she cant even begin to comprehend the most rudimentary basics of true reality… the spiritual reality that contains and controls nature and all that exists. In other words Jesus was explaining to Nicodemus that there was no basis for conversation. There was no way for Jesus to even begin to communicate even the basics until Nicodemus had the Spirit of God inside to receive and disseminate the information. …

Jesus couldnt even send the email because Nicodemus didnt contain the software to receive the message.

 

[Mary_Jessica]

I am curious as to what you mean by “Born Again”? How is it that you know you are born again? Is it a choice you made? Was it because you did enough studying and felt you were following the gudilines of the church? Or was it something else? Was it something perhaps that you alone could never do?

 

[1voice]

I am curious as to what you mean by “Born Again”? How is it that you know you are born again? Is it a choice you made? Was it because you did enough studying and felt you were following the gudilines of the church? Or was it something else? Was it something perhaps that you alone could never do?

St Peter talks directly to Christians about the subject and he tells them that they are born again. He indicates that it is not only do-able but a very important part of his infallible teaching to his flock.

1 Peter 1:3
Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth…

1Peter 1:23
For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

… Peter described the way to be born again in his first address to the people of Jerusalem on Pentecost:
Acts:2
36 “Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah.”

37 When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?”

38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.”

… Jesus said … If you obey my words, you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free. The people that obeyed the word of God that St Peter spoke to them that day were guaranteed that they were born again because Gods word is true and Peter and Jesus would never tel a lie.

St Peter spoke by the power of the Holy Spirit on that Pentecost because he and all those in the upper room had just been filled with the Holy Spirit ( Jesus had instructed them to wait for the Holy Spirit, whom he would send and who would bring power)

 

[AntiTheist]

By “junk in your head,” do you mean images, thoughts, and ideas?

Yes, and emotions and all of the other stuff that we overlay ontop of reality all the time without being aware of it.

Well over 90% of the time, the world you “perceive” is not the real world but in fact a mental map – that can be more or less faulty – that your mind constructs of the real world. Some people have mental maps that are fairly close to the real world, and some people – like that guy yammering on about scary demons that are gonna eat your soul if you sit quietly in a chair for a few minutes or that more recent guy who claims that “reality” has something to do with being “born again” and seeing “spiritual” nonsense – have mental maps that border on being completely disconnected from reality.

Most people are somewhere in the middle: you might have a pretty accurate view of reality, but every now and again, something will happen like you get cut off in traffic and all of a sudden – wham! You’re seeing a hundred different things that aren’t really there…just thoughts in your head that you insist on believing, thoughts like “This guy is a total jerk!” and half-conscious feelings like, “He’s insulting my manhood!” and ridiculous promptings like, “Someone ought to teach a jerk like that a lesson!”

Now, I’m of course not saying that you shouldn’t feel that way, but there’s a difference – a huge difference – between someone who experiences those thoughts as merely thoughts and someone who believes those thoughts.

It’s the people who believe those thoughts that end up replaying the incident in their heads for the next twenty minutes, getting angrier and angrier the whole time. In some cases, it’s been known to cause injuries and even death (“road rage”).

When you first start practicing, you’ll be surprised at how often you get lost in traps of your mind, but with time, you’ll be able to actually catch your mind doing it. That’s when you know you’re on the right track.

 

[1voice]

Yes, and emotions and all of the other stuff that we overlay ontop of reality all the time without being aware of it.

Well over 90% of the time, the world you “perceive” is not the real world but in fact a mental map – that can be more or less faulty – that your mind constructs of the real world. Some people have mental maps that are fairly close to the real world, and some people – like that guy yammering on about scary demons that are gonna eat your soul if you sit quietly in a chair for a few minutes or that more recent guy who claims that “reality” has something to do with being “born again” and seeing “spiritual” nonsense – have mental maps that border on being completely disconnected from reality.

Most people are somewhere in the middle: you might have a pretty accurate view of reality, but every now and again, something will happen like you get cut off in traffic and all of a sudden – wham! You’re seeing a hundred different things that aren’t really there…just thoughts in your head that you insist on believing, thoughts like “This guy is a total jerk!” and half-conscious feelings like, “He’s insulting my manhood!” and ridiculous promptings like, “Someone ought to teach a jerk like that a lesson!”

Now, I’m of course not saying that you shouldn’t feel that way, but there’s a difference – a huge difference – between someone who experiences those thoughts as merely thoughts and someone who believes those thoughts.

It’s the people who believe those thoughts that end up replaying the incident in their heads for the next twenty minutes, getting angrier and angrier the whole time. In some cases, it’s been known to cause injuries and even death (“road rage”).

When you first start practicing, you’ll be surprised at how often you get lost in traps of your mind, but with time, you’ll be able to actually catch your mind doing it. That’s when you know you’re on the right track.

That is exactly why Paul, the writer of the Epistle said… ‘Be transformed… through the renewing of your mind … by the washing of (meditation on) the word’.

… and Jesus said: If you will obey my words… you will see the truth in them… and that truth will set you completely free.

… I learned to love people that I had absolutely despised for years … by applying the above principles in meditation.

 

[Mary_Jessica]

Well over 90% of the time, the world you “perceive” is not the real world but in fact a mental map – that can be more or less faulty – that your mind constructs of the real world. Some people have mental maps that are fairly close to the real world, and some people – like that guy yammering on about scary demons that are gonna eat your soul if you sit quietly in a chair for a few minutes or that more recent guy who claims that “reality” has something to do with being “born again” and seeing “spiritual” nonsense – have mental maps that border on being completely disconnected from reality.

(First of all I would like everyone to know that I will do my best put this into a
Christian context, it is just not as easy to explain that way at times
I am really surprised at this statement. From my understanding Zen is realizing what you are not, which makes sense. We are not our thoughts, we are not our bodies. Pure consiousness (God) is the only consistent reality. As humans we have the will to shape the reality we experiance so in a sense then that is our reality at the time. To discount experiance as nonsense I do not think is productive. We are not born enlightened so experiance is needed to learn. If we are so worried about having the right or wrong experiance we cannot appreciate the depth of the every moment and opportunity to learn. Also when someone uses a term like “born again” you cannot know what it means in thier reality. If you practice zen and have a sadmahi experiance I am sure it changed the sense of reality. It could very likely give the feeling of being born again. I think these occurrences are grace. God Bless, Mary

 

[Mary_Jessica]

Also I think Zen and Christian practices in theory can be seen as similar in a certain sense. Through humility, surrender, and letting go of our sense of pride we no longer attach ourselves to an experiance and can then accept where we are at the time. We learn to truly be in the moment rather than fearing it. I think sometimes some Christians, not all do not like the concept of meditation because of the idea that if the “fruit” is not good then it must not be from God. This is not correct I think when it comes to meditating which typically as Catholics we do practice to a degree. The “deamons” that come up may not be immediately pleasant but perhaps need to be recognized for what they are, manifestations of our own illusions which hinder our ability to become closer to God. If we cannot see and reconize them then how can they be expelled? As most Catholics know to follow Christ means to an extent we will suffer at times. Often I think this suffering can been seen as a gift in a way, an opportunity to learn and grow closer to Christ. If we do not suffer than we never get the chance to see where we could improve and remain buried beneath our egos. Materialistic people who never suffer would never be pushed to see the thruth of who they really are. But since material is never constant if we loose a lot of our attachments all of a sudden than we will suffer but we also have the beautiful chance to attach ourselves to something that was there all along that we can never lose.

 

[SedesDomi]

Does God have Buddha-Nature?

 

[rossum]

Does God have Buddha-Nature?

Wu!

rossum

 

[1voice]

Also I think Zen and Christian practices in theory can be seen as similar in a certain sense. Through humility, surrender, and letting go of our sense of pride we no longer attach ourselves to an experiance and can then accept where we are at the time. We learn to truly be in the moment rather than fearing it. I think sometimes some Christians, not all do not like the concept of meditation because of the idea that if the “fruit” is not good then it must not be from God. This is not correct I think when it comes to meditating which typically as Catholics we do practice to a degree. The “deamons” that come up may not be immediately pleasant but perhaps need to be recognized for what they are, manifestations of our own illusions which hinder our ability to become closer to God. If we cannot see and reconize them then how can they be expelled? As most Catholics know to follow Christ means to an extent we will suffer at times. Often I think this suffering can been seen as a gift in a way, an opportunity to learn and grow closer to Christ. If we do not suffer than we never get the chance to see where we could improve and remain buried beneath our egos. Materialistic people who never suffer would never be pushed to see the thruth of who they really are. But since material is never constant if we loose a lot of our attachments all of a sudden than we will suffer but we also have the beautiful chance to attach ourselves to something that was there all along that we can never lose.

Here is the classic description of Christian meditation and its amazing results. In the 1600s … Brother Lawrence was a man that led a very simple life … yet, through meditation with a specific purpose of focusing on his creator … he achieved a state of being that was and is an amazing story. I have personally studied and practiced this method … and I have experienced the same results. He developed a way of living a focused life that became his very nature. At the beginning it was a struggle to focus … He talkes about the distractions that you mention … but when he finally broke through that wall the personal relationship that he found with God was awe inspiring. As I said, I studied and focused as Brother Lawrence describes … and I can attest to the results. The sense of communion with God is very real and his love and continual presence and guidance are captivating … overwhelming. I love Brother Lawrence for having told his story. It changed my life… I would say that it is achievable by anyone that chooses to commit themselves.

Here is a brief description of the man:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brother_Lawrence

Here is the online book… it’s a short, easy read…
gutenberg.org/ebooks/5657

 

[rinnie]

St Peter talks directly to Christians about the subject and he tells them that they are born again. He indicates that it is not only do-able but a very important part of his infallible teaching to his flock.

1 Peter 1:3
Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth…

1Peter 1:23
For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

… Peter described the way to be born again in his first address to the people of Jerusalem on Pentecost:
Acts:2
36 “Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah.”

37 When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?”

38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.”

… Jesus said … If you obey my words, you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free. The people that obeyed the word of God that St Peter spoke to them that day were guaranteed that they were born again because Gods word is true and Peter and Jesus would never tel a lie.

St Peter spoke by the power of the Holy Spirit on that Pentecost because he and all those in the upper room had just been filled with the Holy Spirit ( Jesus had instructed them to wait for the Holy Spirit, whom he would send and who would bring power)

Dear being born again is Baptism. When you are baptised you are baptised usually for a Catholic, right after you are born from a human stand point.

When we are born into the world we need be be cleansed from Original Sin that is being re-born in Christ cleansed from that sin. Sorry to de-rail, But had to make this point.

If you need to continue this make a new thread and we can continue to discuss it.