Zen Meditation: Theory and Practice

[AntiTheist]

From my understanding Zen is realizing what you are not, which makes sense. We are not our thoughts, we are not our bodies.

Yes. In a very real sense, “you” are not identical with your thoughts, your emotions, or your physical body. “You” are something more than those things, and – I’ll let you in on a little secret – one of the final realizations is that “you” aren’t anything at all.

If you keep up with meditation, you’ll understand what that means. I could explain further, but it’s not terribly relevant from the perspective of most people, for whom liberation from the world of their thoughts is already a major and herculean effort.

Pure consiousness (God) is the only consistent reality.

No. Reality is reality. Consciousness is one of the things that has arisen in reality, and it allows us to contemplate and have experience and all these other wonderful things, but it also allows us to fool ourselves in the manner I’ve been describing in the OP. If you want to find reality, you have to look outside of consciousness, not deeper into it.

As humans we have the will to shape the reality we experiance so in a sense then that is our reality at the time.

This is an example of how the mind fools us. We don’t “shape the reality we experience.” Reality is reality. The mind tells us stories about reality, usually stories that are colored with emotions or religiously-inspired enthusiasm or whatever. We can learn, however, to gradually pay less attention to the stories that the mind is spinning and focus more on reality.

To discount experiance as nonsense I do not think is productive.

To be clear, I wasn’t “discounting” anyone’s experience – I was correctly labeling a particular idea about reality as a nonsense story about reality, rather than reality itself.

The experience of, let’s call them “spiritual feelings” or whatever, is a perfectly real experience and a good chance for practice, in the same way that my rising thoughts of anger when I get cut off in traffic is a real experience that is a good chance for practice.

But my angry thoughts are just thoughts, and your trippy spiritual experiences are just thoughts – when you start believing those thoughts or believing that you should be embracing those thoughts, instead of putting them aside and learning to look at reality, then you’re just going to completely confuse yoruself.

That’s why I made it a point in the OP to say that the practice of meditation will generate “mental fireworks” like the “one with everything feeling” and a host of other phenomena that are sometimes described as “trances.” That’s fine – you should expect that and experience them fully. But if you start believing those experiences or stories based on those experiences (“I saw a bright light! It must be a sign from God! I am the chosen enlightened one here to bring his message to mankind!”) you’re going to miss the boat entirely and go off wallowing in your own mental prison.

 

[AntiTheist]

Wu!

 

[mark_avery]

Zen is also the meaning of ten like the ten commandments,so then you are actually practising religion.

Oooops

Blessings…

 

[1voice]

Dear being born again is Baptism. When you are baptised you are baptised usually for a Catholic, right after you are born from a human stand point.

When we are born into the world we need be be cleansed from Original Sin that is being re-born in Christ cleansed from that sin. Sorry to de-rail, But had to make this point.

If you need to continue this make a new thread and we can continue to discuss it.

Sure I’ll be glad to …

forums.catholic-questions.org/newthread.php?do=newthread&f=14

 

[AntiTheist]

through meditation with a specific purpose of focusing on his creator … he achieved a state of being that was and is an amazing story. …] At the beginning it was a struggle to focus … He talkes about the distractions that you mention … but when he finally broke through that wall the personal relationship that he found with God was awe inspiring.

Though I haven’t read his account, what you’re describing here sounds very much like the practice of Dharana, where the person meditating restricts the mind to one specific thought or visualization and tries not to let the mind wander.

This is similar – but not identical – to the “sit still and shut up” method I’ve been describing: both are different paths to quieting thoughts. I prefer my method simply because there’s less strain and because there’s far less danger of incorrectly thinking that the thing you’re focusing on – in this case, a godform – is in any way real or inherently generating the experience.

For the record, this practice works regardless of what you focus on. It works equally well if you focus on a Hindu god or a coffee cup.

The very act of restricting the mind to one thought for a long period of time – regardless of what the thought is – will actually cause some incredibly trippy results, but again, if you start believing in those experiences, or the stories you tell yourself about those experiences, you’ll be lost.

 

[rinnie]

Um, Just to comment on the last statememt of we are nothing at all?

Nope that is completely against the word of God.

1 Cor 6:15 Do you not know that whoever is joined to the Lord becomes ONE SPIRIT with him. 6:20 You have been purchased for a price Therefore glorify GOD in your body.

Do you no know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spriit within you, whom you have from God and that you are not YOUR OWN.

Sorry this nothing at all stuff emptying oneself just don’t cut it for me. When I am in prayer, working, no matter what I am doing or where I am the Lord is always with me. Because I pray for the Holy Spirit to dwell in my soul at ALL TIMES.

Our relationship with God is with Christ and his Spirit. IT is very intimately expressed in us, he is either highly Glorified or deeply offended.

St Paul teaches us never to over-estimate our own strength. We are nothing without God.

 

[rinnie]

Though I haven’t read his account, what you’re describing here sounds very much like the practice of Dharana, where the person meditating restricts the mind to one specific thought or visualization and tries not to let the mind wander.

This is similar – but not identical – to the “sit still and shut up” method I’ve been describing: both are different paths to quieting thoughts. I prefer my method simply because there’s less strain and because there’s far less danger of incorrectly thinking that the thing you’re focusing on – in this case, a godform – is in any way real or inherently generating the experience.

For the record, this practice works regardless of what you focus on. It works equally well if you focus on a Hindu god or a coffee cup.

The very act of restricting the mind to one thought for a long period of time – regardless of what the thought is – will actually cause some incredibly trippy results, but again, if you start believing in those experiences, or the stories you tell yourself about those experiences, you’ll be lost.

If you open up your mind to ANYTHING except Christ AT ALL TIMES you will be Lost!!

There is NEVER any danger in sitting down and opening your mind up to the Holy Spirit. It is the Holy Spirit that will guide us to all truth.

You are to be FOCUSED on GOD AT ALL TIMES. God will never put strain on you or stress, God will take away strain or stress.

Matt 22:36 Teacher which commamdment is the Greatest. You shall LOVE the Lord with ALL your heart, with ALL your soul, and with ALL your mind. Now how can you do this if you do not have God in mind? God is to be IN OUR MIND every single second of our lives.

 

[rinnie]

[SIGN][/SIGN]

Though I haven’t read his account, what you’re describing here sounds very much like the practice of Dharana, where the person meditating restricts the mind to one specific thought or visualization and tries not to let the mind wander.

This is similar – but not identical – to the “sit still and shut up” method I’ve been describing: both are different paths to quieting thoughts. I prefer my method simply because there’s less strain and because there’s far less danger of incorrectly thinking that the thing you’re focusing on – in this case, a godform – is in any way real or inherently generating the experience.

For the record, this practice works regardless of what you focus on. It[SIGN] works equally well if you focus on a Hindu god or a coffee cup.[/SIGN]The very act of restricting the mind to one thought for a long period of time – regardless of what the thought is – will actually cause some incredibly trippy results, but again, if you start believing in those experiences, or the stories you tell yourself about those experiences, you’ll be lost.

Yes I am sure it does. Because if you focus on the hindu god or the coffee cup you cannot be in Union with the One GOd and the Holy Spirit at all times now can you!

Christians never wanted to be separated from the Holy Spirit we want the Power of ONE SPIRIT to dwell in us at all times. ANd that is God. God the Father, God the SOn, and God the HOLY SPIRIT.

Dear Lord please never let anyone separate us from you and the power of your Holy Spirit. Amen.

 

[rinnie]

Sure I’ll be glad to …

forums.catholic-questions.org/newthread.php?do=newthread&f=14

See you there!

 

[rinnie]

When we meditate our mind if not empty. It is on one Thing and that is God.

Do not be fooled to open your mind up to just sittin down and shutting up. That is not what praying is?

What is praying? SItting quietly and opening up your mind TO GOD. Nothing else.

When you sit quietly you have GOD on your mind at all times. Do not let him go. If you have GOD on your mind he will not leave you and will give you all the peace you need. If you do not have God on your mind nothing is possible.

Because if you think you can sit down and not have him in your heart and soul and mind at all times then you are saying you can accomplish something w/o him. Don’t be fooled.

Nothing good is possible without God. If you sit down and have him on your mind you will find peace, You cannot find peace without him.

 

[AntiTheist]

Ok, Rinnie. I appreciate the fact that you’re a “prayer warrior” or whatever and that you want to make sure that the faithful aren’t being deceived by the big, bad, eloquent, rational AntiTheist, but five posts in a row that say the same thing over and over again – the same exact thing you’ve been repeating since you first posted in this thread – is too much.

I think you’ve made your point. Please stop or at least add something substantial to the conversation (that is – some new thought that you haven’t said already).

 

[rinnie]

Ok, Rinnie. I appreciate the fact that you’re a “prayer warrior” or whatever and that you want to make sure that the faithful aren’t being deceived by the big, bad, eloquent, rational AntiTheist, but five posts in a row that say the same thing over and over again – the same exact thing you’ve been repeating since you first posted in this thread – is too much.

I think you’ve made your point. Please stop or at least add something substantial to the conversation (that is – some new thought that you haven’t said already).

Glad you asked. You show me how anyone can find anything GOOD out of doing what you are saying without GOD at the center of it. Because everything that is GOOD comes from God.

Now you answer me this, and I will quit. One simple question.

How can any goodness not come from God? How can any good Grace not come from God. Then how is is possible to do anything good without the presence of GOD’S GRACE. Answer that

How can you find truth within yourself if all truth comes from God. SO if there is no GOD in you how can there be truth in you. And how can this be accomplished without God?

 

[po18guy]

Ok, Rinnie. I appreciate the fact that you’re a “prayer warrior” or whatever and that you want to make sure that the faithful aren’t being deceived by the big, bad, eloquent, rational AntiTheist, but five posts in a row that say the same thing over and over again – the same exact thing you’ve been repeating since you first posted in this thread – is too much.

You might hold this post up to the mirror.

 

[rinnie]

Part 2 of 2:

So what’s the cure for our tendency to do this? Why, Zen Meditation of course.

Here’s how to do it:

1. Find a quiet place where you can be alone for five minutes (start with only five minutes of practice…don’t push yourself too hard).
2. Sit in a comfortable position. Sitting in a chair with your hands on your lap works perfectly fine.
3. Let go of all of your thought[SIGN][/SIGN]

Ok, so I’ve ranted for long enough on this subject. I’ll open the floor to comments and questions. Discuss.

There you go. You are asking us to break the first commandment of God. You shall love the lord your God with ALL your heart your soul and your MIND. How can you let go of ALL of your thoughts and not break the first commandment.

 

[AntiTheist]

Glad you asked. You show me how anyone can find anything GOOD out of doing what you are saying without GOD at the center of it. Because everything that is GOOD comes from God.

You’re confused on a lot of basic points here:

1. I’m not asserting that the practice is “good” – merely that it will put people in touch with reality and that, for most people, it’s desirable (or at least more useful) to be more in touch with reality than less.
2. Even if I were claiming the practice is good, you can’t start out by assuming “everything that is good comes from” something other than the practice and then argue with me on that basis. This is the equivalent of me telling you that “nothing good can come from brushing your teeth because brushing your teeth doesn’t involve unicorns and everything good comes from unicorns, so you better stop brushing your teeth.”

What you’re saying is a just a ridiculous and convoluted circular non-sequitur.

1. Even if it were true that “everything that is good comes from” some undemonstrable supernatural entity, it’s still the case that people who don’t believe in that undemonstrable supernatural entity do and experience things that they label with the word “good.”

Now, you might baselessly assert that their idea of the “good” ultimately derives from the undemonstrable supernatural entity, but you are again begging the question by just assuming that your position is true.

In short, you’re filled with a lot of energy and enthusiasm, but you don’t have a really clear idea of what it is you’re doing. This is, perhaps, one of the best examples I could have asked for of someone who is paying attention to the world she’s carved out in her head instead of reality.

Someone paying attention to reality would have figured out all of the stuff I was saying above. You, however, can’t see it because you’re running around in circles in this world you’ve crafted inside your head, a world that begins and ends with undemonstrable premises that you accept as true just because they make you feel good.

What I’m saying is that enlightenment – real, actual, honest-to-goodness enlightenment – is about escaping from a mental prison like that and actually dealing with reality on reality’s terms.

 

[rinnie]

You’re confused on a lot of basic points here:

1. I’m not asserting that the practice is “good” – merely that it will put people in touch with reality and that, for most people, it’s desirable (or at least more useful) to be more in touch with reality than less.
2. Even if I were claiming the practice is good, you can’t start out by assuming “everything that is good comes from” something other than the practice and then argue with me on that basis. This is the equivalent of me telling you that “nothing good can come from brushing your teeth because brushing your teeth doesn’t involve unicorns and everything good comes from unicorns, so you better stop brushing your teeth.”

What you’re saying is a just a ridiculous and convoluted circular non-sequitur.

1. Even if it were true that “everything that is good comes from” some undemonstrable supernatural entity, it’s still the case that people who don’t believe in that undemonstrable supernatural entity do and experience things that they label with the word “good.”

Now, you might baselessly assert that their idea of the “good” ultimately derives from the undemonstrable supernatural entity, but you are again begging the question by just assuming that your position is true.

In short, you’re filled with a lot of energy and enthusiasm, but you don’t have a really clear idea of what it is you’re doing. This is, perhaps, one of the best examples I could have asked for of someone who is paying attention to the world she’s carved out in her head instead of reality.

Someone paying attention to reality would have figured out all of stuff I was saying above. You, however, can’t see it because you’re running around in circles in this world you’ve crafted inside your head, a world that begins and ends with undemonstrable premises that you accept as true just because they make you feel good.

What I’m saying is that enlightenment – real, actual, honest-to-goodness enlightenment – is about escaping from a mental prison like that and actually dealing with reality on reality’s terms.

You can tell me anything you want. I am telling you that a Christian cannot separate themself from God and expect to find goodness never ever.

I am not telling you that you have to accept God or his goodess. But I am saying you cannot do what you are saying without breaking the first commandment.

You must have God at the center of your mind at all times. You must be united with him in Spirit or you are in a state of sin. So if we are to not be united with him you are telling us to sin,

And I am telling you that if you are in a mental prison and you are a Christian you do not believe there is any excape without God.

SO what you are saying is not true for a Christian. You cannot take this practice and separate yourself from God and not be in a state of sin. If you are looking for truth and not looking to God you have broken the first commandment. THere is no truth without God.

I am just saying this is not possible for a Christian. Our thoughts should be to look to God for help at all times. OR look for Gods grace to do his work at all times. Every spare moment we have should be to pray and thank God for his grace. And if we do not have peace seek God to receive his Grace for the peace that is needed.

 

[rinnie]

[SIGN][/SIGN]

You’re confused on a lot of basic points here:

1. I’m not asserting that the practice is “good” – merely that it will put people in touch with reality and that, for most people, it’s desirable (or at least more useful) to be more in touch with reality than less.
2. Even if I were claiming the practice is good, you can’t start out by assuming “everything that is good comes from” something other than the practice and then argue with me on that basis. This is the equivalent of me telling you that “nothing good can come from brushing your teeth because brushing your teeth doesn’t involve unicorns and everything good comes from unicorns, so you better stop brushing your teeth.”

What you’re saying is a just a ridiculous and convoluted circular non-sequitur.

1. Even if it were true that “everything that is good comes from” some undemonstrable supernatural entity, it’s still the case that people who don’t believe in that undemonstrable supernatural entity do and experience things that they label with the word “good.”

Now, you might baselessly assert that their idea of the “good” ultimately derives from the undemonstrable supernatural entity, but you are again begging the question by just assuming that your position is true.

In short, you’re filled with a lot of energy and enthusiasm, but you don’t have a really clear idea of what it is you’re doing. This is, perhaps, one of the best examples I could have asked for of someone who is paying attention to the world she’s carved out in her head instead of reality.

Someone paying attention to reality would have figured out all of the stuff I was saying above. You, however, can’t see it because you’re running around in circles in this world you’ve crafted inside your head, a world that begins and ends with undemonstrable premises that you accept as true just because they make you feel good.

[SIGN]What I’m saying is that enlightenment – real, actual, honest-to-goodness enlightenment – is about escaping from a mental prison like that and actually dealing with reality on reality’s terms.

[/SIGN]

And I am saying this is in total conflict with the word of God. There is NO enlightment without LIGHT and the LIGHT is God.

Lets be blunt here. Do you agree that you can find Peace without Putting Jesus Christ at the center of your mind. Yes or No.

 

[rinnie]

[SIGN][/SIGN]

You’re confused on a lot of basic points here:

1. [SIGN]I’m not asserting that the practice is “good”[/SIGN] – merely that it will put people in touch with reality and that, for most people, it’s desirable (or at least more useful) to be more in touch with reality than less.
2. Even if I were claiming the practice is good, you can’t start out by assuming “everything that is good comes from” something other than the practice and then argue with me on that basis. This is the equivalent of me telling you that “nothing good can come from brushing your teeth because brushing your teeth doesn’t involve unicorns and everything good comes from unicorns, so you better stop brushing your teeth.”

What you’re saying is a just a ridiculous and convoluted circular non-sequitur.

1. Even if it were true that “everything that is good comes from” some undemonstrable supernatural entity, it’s still the case that people who don’t believe in that undemonstrable supernatural entity do and experience things that they label with the word “good.”

Now, you might baselessly assert that their idea of the “good” ultimately derives from the undemonstrable supernatural entity, but you are again begging the question by just assuming that your position is true.

In short, you’re filled with a lot of energy and enthusiasm, but you don’t have a really clear idea of what it is you’re doing. This is, perhaps, one of the best examples I could have asked for of someone who is paying attention to the world she’s carved out in her head instead of reality.

Someone paying attention to reality would have figured out all of the stuff I was saying above. You, however, can’t see it because you’re running around in circles in this world you’ve crafted inside your head, a world that begins and ends with undemonstrable premises that you accept as true just because they make you feel good.

What I’m saying is that enlightenment – real, actual, honest-to-goodness enlightenment – is about escaping from a mental prison like that and actually dealing with reality on reality’s terms.

 

[rinnie]

Johm 14:6

I am the way the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Now you show me scripture that states we can find the fruth without CHrist. Thats all I am asking.

If you love me KEEP my commandments. Lets start with number one.

I am the Lord your God…

Now if Christ say that whoever believes will do the words that I do, and will do greater ones then these because I am going to the Father. And whatever you ask in MY NAME I will do. so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you ask anything in my name I will do it. What is lacking here then?

The Advocate the Holy Spirit the Father will send in my nmae he will teach you everything and remind you of all I told you.

Peace I leave you, peace I give you not as the world gives do I give it to you. Do not be afraid.

Now I know I have asked and keep asking only because you do not answer, is it possible to do anything w/o Christ.

Scripture says No one comes to the Father except through Me. Now how can we find anything without going through Christ thats all I am asking? Because that come FROM Christ come THROUGH Christ. And all Goodness comes from Christ.

If you can show me how this is possible I will agree a Christian can participate in this practice. If you cannot then as I stated it is not possible.

 

[rinnie]

[SIGN][/SIGN]

You’re confused on a lot of basic points here:

1. I’m not asserting that the practice is “good” – merely that it will put people in touch with reality and that, for most people, it’s desirable (or at least more useful) to be more in touch with reality than less.
2. Even if I were claiming the practice is good, you can’t start out by assuming “everything [SIGN]that is good comes from” something other than the practice and then argue with me on that basis. This is the equivalent of me telling you that “nothing good can come from [/SIGN]brushing your teeth because brushing your teeth doesn’t involve unicorns and everything good comes from unicorns, so you better stop brushing your teeth.”

What you’re saying is a just a ridiculous and convoluted circular non-sequitur.

1. Even if it were true that “everything that is good comes from” some undemonstrable supernatural entity, it’s still the case that people who don’t believe in that undemonstrable supernatural entity do and experience things that they label with the word “good.”

Now, you might baselessly assert that their idea of the “good” ultimately derives from the undemonstrable supernatural entity, but you are again begging the question by just assuming that your position is true.

In short, you’re filled with a lot of energy and enthusiasm, but you don’t have a really clear idea of what it is you’re doing. This is, perhaps, one of the best examples I could have asked for of someone who is paying attention to the world she’s carved out in her head instead of reality.

Someone paying attention to reality would have figured out all of the stuff I was saying above. You, however, can’t see it because you’re running around in circles in this world you’ve crafted inside your head, a world that begins and ends with undemonstrable premises that you accept as true just because they make you feel good.

What I’m saying is that enlightenment – real, actual, honest-to-goodness enlightenment – is about escaping from a mental prison like that and actually dealing with reality on reality’s terms.

Yes I can. On the word of God. The word of God states all that is good comes from God.