Zen Meditation: Theory and Practice

[rinnie]

I find this all so confusing. What is the big deal. We are influenced by everything we encounter. In order to be a good Catholic some people make it seem as if we should lock ourselves in a box with the bible. I went to Catholic school and we learned about other religions I was never told " beware of the ravenous forces trying to destroy the faith" that mindset makes for scared puppets not people of God.

I also went to a Catholic school and we were. We were taught that in the word of God it started with the O.T.

And the first Ravenous force I know you were taught rather you admit it or not. And that was the devil, and to beware of him he is the master of disguise. To always have God in you mimd soul and throught. With God all things are possible with/o God nothing is possible.

And I disagree with you completely that for one to turn away from their faith or get lost in their faith are scared puppets. Many cults have fooled many good people. What do you think of the Scripture that our Lord wrote that at the end of time many will be fooled by the devil. Do you feel they would be scared puppets and not people of God? The devil is real and anytime you open up your mind and do not have God iin the center, he can move in. I am sorry you feel because I reject a teaching that is told to me to reject by my Pope and not opening my mind up to this makes me a scared puppet.

 

[ryanoneil]

Well, what I’m saying is that by consciously focusing on the present moment, you can expose yourself to more details than you would normally ever take in. You won’t ever get a total picture of your surroundings or a 100% accurate view of reality, but you might greatly increase the amount of reality you perceive.

I’d be hesitant to describe it as “mystery.” It’s just the real world, rather than the junk in your head.

I’m just thinking that a few more details might give us a 2% accurate view of reality instead of the 1% we might perceive otherwise.

Don’t get me wrong, I agree we can come up with some junk in our heads. But the overwhelming majority of what is real is more than we can understand. That is why I think of mystery. Isn’t there something to be said for relating to those things that cannot be understood?

 

[1voice]

See you there!

LOL!!!
OOPS!!!

Reminds me of the guy that said he had a knock knock joke and asked me to start it …

 

[Sufjon]

What do you think of the Scripture that our Lord wrote that at the end of time many will be fooled by the devil.

Are you talking about Luke 21: 8-11?

 

[Sufjon]

What do you think of the Scripture that our Lord wrote that at the end of time many will be fooled by the devil.

Are you talking about Luke 21: 8-11?

 

[Cecilianus]

Cecilianus;7743365:

Lectio divina - a Latin word for reading the Bible - is not the only form of Christian “meditation”, though. Other Roman Catholic forms of meditation include the Rosary (which is not lectio divine per se

) and methods such as those of St. Francis de Sales. In Greek Catholicism, we do empty our minds of all that comes from us - of all that is human finite - so that our imagination does not produce a false image of God that gets in the way of our prayer. The early Egyptian Desert Fathers caution strongly against the use of imagination in prayer, regarding it simply as a distraction. Zen therefore does not seem to me completely incompatible with Christian prayer - it just doesn’t happen to be prayer itself. Sitting still and clearing your mind of distractions isn’t itself prayer, but it could hardly hurt.

It’s not incompatible with prayer because it’s something completely different from it. You’re making something like a category confusion. You might as well say physics is incompatible with prayer because there is no God you are praying to in physics. Fact is however that one can pray and one can also do physics without any contradiction. Zen isn’t prayer because its practioners are not seeking God, but seeking satori - insight or intellectio into the nature of reality beyond a level expressable by words. Zen is more like physics than prayer. I happen to like both.

 

[AntiTheist]

It’s not incompatible with prayer because it’s something completely different from it.

I’ve been pretty quiet on this thread because Cecilianus has been on target.

Zen meditation is entirely different from prayer, so to criticize it because it’s “not prayer” is as nonsensical as criticizing the practice of polishing a mirror because it’s “not prayer.”

The fact that it’s “not prayer” doesn’t change the fact that it’s useful to take actions that allow us to see more clearly.

 

[rinnie]

I’ve been pretty quiet on this thread because Cecilianus has been on target.

Zen meditation is entirely different from prayer, so to criticize it because it’s “not prayer” is as nonsensical as criticizing the practice of polishing a mirror because it’s “not prayer.”

The fact that it’s “not prayer” doesn’t change the fact that it’s useful to take actions that allow us to see more clearly.

I am saying that the Church tells us not to practice anything in meditation that does not center on Christ.

That is the teaching;s of my Church. You claim that it can take actions to make us see more clearly and the teaching’s of the Church disagrees.

According to the teachings of Jesus Christ there is nothing that can help you to see more clearly then the help and Grace of God by the power of the Holy Spirit.

What is the purpose of this, you stated it yourself to help you see more clearly. Nothing is possible without the Grace and power of the Holy Spirit to lead us. Nothing is possible w/o God. So I disagree that you can see things more clearly w/o the grace and help of God. So what you say goes against the word of God.

All GOOD things come from God. SO to say that zen can achieve a good w/o God is not possible and goes against scripture.

 

[rinnie]

rinnie;7748395:

It’s not incompatible with prayer because it’s something completely different from it. You’re making something like a category confusion. You might as well say physics is incompatible with prayer because there is no God you are praying to in physics. Fact is however that one can pray and one can also do physics without any contradiction. Zen isn’t prayer because its practioners are not seeking God, but seeking satori - insight or intellectio

into the nature of reality beyond a level expressable by words. Zen is more like physics than prayer. I happen to like both.

Whatever you want to call it the Pope advises against it.

 

[AntiTheist]

Again, your point is noted. As it was the last twenty times.

Now, does anyone have any other points to make about the OP?

 

[ryanoneil]

Maybe the perceived differences between prayer and zen meditation are only an illusion.

Does the horizon seperate anything?

 

[AntiTheist]

Maybe the perceived differences between prayer and zen meditation are only an illusion.

No, I’m actually with Rinnie on this point – I’m just wishing she would stop repeating the same exact thing over and over again.

Zen meditation is different than prayer. Prayer involves reinscribing yourself in a narrative – telling yourself a story about talking to an imaginary entity and receiving an “answer” of some kind. Zen is about putting all of the stories you tell yourself – all of them – aside for a moment and experiencing reality.

Now, as others have been noting, the fact that Zen is different than prayer shouldn’t be an obstacle to anyone deciding that they want to practice it, any more than the fact that brushing your teeth is different than prayer shouldn’t be an obstacle to anyone deciding they want to brush.

 

[ryanoneil]

No, I’m actually with Rinnie on this point – I’m just wishing she would stop repeating the same exact thing over and over again.

Zen meditation is different than prayer. Prayer involves reinscribing yourself in a narrative – telling yourself a story about talking to an imaginary entity and receiving an “answer” of some kind. Zen is about putting all of the stories you tell yourself – all of them – aside for a moment and experiencing reality.

Now, as others have been noting, the fact that Zen is different than prayer shouldn’t be an obstacle to anyone deciding that they want to practice it, any more than the fact that brushing your teeth is different than prayer shouldn’t be an obstacle to anyone deciding they want to brush.

The point of both is to experience what is real. The rest is a matter of perception. There is definately some differences in theory and practice between the two, but Zen meditation could be just as much a mind trick “in reality” as you claim prayer is. But who am I to say?

 

[rinnie]

No, I’m actually with Rinnie on this point – I’m just wishing she would stop repeating the same exact thing over and over again.

Zen meditation is different than prayer. Prayer involves reinscribing yourself in a narrative – telling yourself a story about talking to an imaginary entity and receiving an “answer” of some kind. Zen is about putting all of the stories you tell yourself – all of them – aside for a moment and experiencing reality.

Now, as others have been noting, the fact that Zen is different than prayer shouldn’t be an obstacle to anyone deciding that they want to practice it, any more than the fact that brushing your teeth is different than prayer shouldn’t be an obstacle to anyone deciding they want to brush.

See Anittheist I am being a good girl and not repeating myself like you asked and now you are doing it for me

 

[TheAtheist]

Now this is the thread i’ve been looking for!

Ok, look, im a busy bee in the Neurosciences and Buddhism kind of hit us like a bombshell. A really big bombshell.

I’m not saying we’ve all decided to convert (i think the name tag should give that away) insofar as the fact that traditional Buddhists tend to believe in a lot metaphysical propositions that cannot be tested for (Dharma, Karma, reincarnation, blah blah blah).

Without going through a painstaking account - a lot of the things that many in the neurosciences thought were unlikely or impossible…they’ve been slowly been giving proof for. Let me emphasize: Proof, not arguments - as in we’ve been fMRIng them or doing CT Scans on them and been getting a lot of tasty data.

So from secularized non-faith perspective - it looks like Siddartha Gautama is less a savior figure or divine being and more like Newton or Einstein. He essentially invented Cognitive Science ahead of the West about oh say a few 1,000 years. He died but his followers inherited a technique which they refined and built upon - just like the way someone would for for Physics or Chemistry.

The current modern “fruit” of his work can be seen in Mindfulness Based Therapy - which involves nothing more than monitoring your own mental state.

So all this verification and advancement gets greeted by other Asian religious traditions with a nod, as they also use similar techniques for different purposes - pointing out that the Buddha did not invent meditation, only codfiied it in a certain manner.

I’ve also seen members of all major Jewish sects also nod in approval - “Its like a mental exercise essentially.” to paraphrase one Conservative Jewish rabbi. If your not doing it to “gain Enlightenment” but for a concrete practical purpose, it doesn’t conflict at all with the Law of Moses.

Then there’s Christianity and Islam…which has a much more varied idea of what’s going on.

In terms of it, Mainstream Islam is incredibly wary of any sort of meditation (arguably even types that grew up within their own tradition!).

Christianity’s encounter with eastern meditation is much more varied. I can find people saying that practicing this or Yoga and you’ll be possessed by Demons. I can find others who’ve essentially melded the two traditions together.

I am interested in the Catholic response to these developments - if only because i have a number of Catholic colleagues who are looking at these meditative practices with interest for furthering the investigation of the human mind but may run afoul of their theological relations. Are they at the point where they must choose between their career and their faith?

I’m aware of your Pope’s statement on the matters of meditation, but i wonder if a distinction exists in well…anybody’s heads whose contemplating these things over at the Vatican. Namely that people do different things for different reasons.

Take Yoga for instance - there are some people who do it to achieve Enlightenment in terms of the Hindu conception of it. There are (alot) more others who just see it as an exercise.

The other thing is this tricky word regarding “meditaiton” - you use it describe a variety of practices that kinda sorta look the same as the type of things done in the religious traditions of the West but really aren’t…

No i’m serious about that point - esp. in terms of the fact that what parts of the brain that receive increased activity may show up in one type but do not in the other…

 

[Cecilianus]

I am saying that the Church tells us not to practice anything in meditation that does not center on Christ.

That is the teaching;s of my Church. You claim that it can take actions to make us see more clearly and the teaching’s of the Church disagrees.

According to the teachings of Jesus Christ there is nothing that can help you to see more clearly then the help and Grace of God by the power of the Holy Spirit.

What is the purpose of this, you stated it yourself to help you see more clearly. Nothing is possible without the Grace and power of the Holy Spirit to lead us. Nothing is possible w/o God. So I disagree that you can see things more clearly w/o the grace and help of God. So what you say goes against the word of God.

All GOOD things come from God. SO to say that zen can achieve a good w/o God is not possible and goes against scripture.

Rinnie, you’re not getting it. “Meditation” in Roman Catholic spiritual writing is a technical term that refers to a type of prayer, specifically one in which the person praying actively thinks about and reflects on spiritual matters.

Zen is not meditation in this sense. Zen is a way to focus and clear your mind. You criticize it for not being prayer, but there is no reason for it to be prayer to begin with. And the Church has never condemned this. What the Church has condemned is syncretistic spirituality. You are misrepresenting Catholic teaching.

Your argument that zen cannot achieve a good without God is superficial. If God exists (as I acknowledge), then all good things including advancement in secular knowledge (whether it be zen or physics) come from Him. But that doesn’t mean that these good things are religious, or that this knowledge comes from divine revelation, or that it’s a form of prayer. In fact, you don’t need to know that God exists in order to achieve such goods, because the fact is frankly irrelevant. An atheist can do just as good physics as the believer.

I am also bewildered why you are constantly bringing up Scripture. It’s completely irrelevant to the discussion. AntiTheist is obviously not going to accept the authority of Scripture as his name might suggest, so it’s not a cogent debating point, and it’s not relevant to the topic under discussion either. Scripture says nothing about Zen. The authors of Scripture had never heard of Zen. As Catholics we believe in the unity of faith and reason, and in Catholic apologetics we help to prepare unbelievers to be receptive to divine grace by working with their reason and will, not by throwing Bible verses at them sub modo Protestantis. I’m objecting because it can be really counterproductive to use Evangelical Protestant tactics on people who pride themselves on their use of reason, especially when it’s something that we as Catholics share with them. I didn’t say anything earlier because AntiTheist responded to your points with perfect reasoning (and very good epistemology, imo). Just a friendly suggestion - my apologies if I crossed the line.

 

[rossum]

Without going through a painstaking account - a lot of the things that many in the neurosciences thought were unlikely or impossible…they’ve been slowly been giving proof for. Let me emphasize: Proof, not arguments - as in we’ve been fMRIng them or doing CT Scans on them and been getting a lot of tasty data.

Thank you for that. It confirms the impression I had been getting.

So from secularized non-faith perspective - it looks like Siddartha Gautama is less a savior figure or divine being and more like Newton or Einstein. He essentially invented Cognitive Science ahead of the West about oh say a few 1,000 years. He died but his followers inherited a technique which they refined and built upon - just like the way someone would for for Physics or Chemistry.

One of the more commonly quoted suttas, the Kalama sutta, is an approach to the scientific method; it tells people to rely on results rather than just on authority.

The Kalamas were puzzled. A lot of preachers came to them to preach, and each preacher said, “I am right and the other preachers are wrong.” When the Buddha arrived in their town they asked him, “Sir, we are confused. Which preachers are right and which preachers are wrong?” The Buddha answered:"Yes, Kalamas, it is proper that you have doubt, that you have perplexity, for a doubt has arisen in a matter which is doubtful. Now, look you Kalamas, do not be led by reports, or tradition, or hearsay. Be not led by the authority of religious texts, nor by mere logic or inference, nor by considering appearances, nor by the delight in speculative opinions, nor by seeming possibilities, nor by the idea ‘this is our teacher’. Kalamas, when you yourselves know: ‘These things are bad; these things are blameable; these things are censured by the wise; undertaken and observed, these things lead to harm and ill,’ abandon them. …

“Kalamas, when you yourselves know: ‘These things are good; these things are not blameable; these things are praised by the wise; undertaken and observed, these things lead to benefit and happiness,’ enter on and abide in them.”

• Kalama sutta, Anguttara Nikaya, 3.65

I am interested in the Catholic response to these developments - if only because i have a number of Catholic colleagues who are looking at these meditative practices with interest for furthering the investigation of the human mind but may run afoul of their theological relations. Are they at the point where they must choose between their career and their faith?

As a Buddhist looking at Christianity from the outside, it is the Catholic and Orthodox Churches that seem to have kept most of the Christian meditative tradition. Perhaps because both of them have preserved the monastic tradition of early Christianity. Meditation is more often practised by monks and nuns than by lay people. There are enough Buddhist techniques that effectively have zero religious content, such as counting breaths, to be useful as well as Christian meditations such as the Jesus Prayer. Obviously I cannot comment on the therapeutic use of those specific techniques.

rossum

 

[Mary_Jessica]

I agree. Meditation in general is not spiritual unless that is the intent of the individual. It is like eating healthy is good for your body and can make a person more productive at practicing their faith or whatever they are doing. Meditation is good for the brain and this improves every part of life including the spiritual. Zen is useful in that is gives us the how in a very effective way, they are just steps. Now in doing the steps like breathing, and clearing your mind (how is this anti anything) you can make the choice to center on Christ before starting or a tree.

 

[Cecilianus]

I agree. Meditation in general is not spiritual unless that is the intent of the individual. It is like eating healthy is good for your body and can make a person more productive at practicing their faith or whatever they are doing. Meditation is good for the brain and this improves every part of life including the spiritual. Zen is useful in that is gives us the how in a very effective way, they are just steps. Now in doing the steps like breathing, and clearing your mind (how is this anti anything) you can make the choice to center on Christ before starting or a tree.

Your words suggested an analogy to me. Meditation (zen, etc.) is to prayer as dieting is to fasting. We don’t criticize dieting for being non-Christ centered - but we would caution against Hindu ascetic practices as a religious practice. Likewise, we shouldn’t criticize Zen (as a mental exercise) for being non-Christ-centered, but I would have a problem with someone using it as prayer or trying to achieve some sort of spiritual salvation through it.

 

[ryanoneil]

Prayer involves reinscribing yourself in a narrative – telling yourself a story about talking to an imaginary entity and receiving an “answer” of some kind.

Is this the what Zen theory says about prayer or are this what you say about it (in regards to an imaginary entity)?