Zen Meditation: Theory and Practice

[AntiTheist]

Is this the what Zen theory says about prayer or are this what you say about it (in regards to an imaginary entity)?

Sorry for being unclear: that’s all me. I’ve taken relatively little from Zen, except for the actual practice in question.

 

[Mary_Jessica]

I do not think salvation is dependent on meditation, particularly from a Catholic viewpoint. For me it has been a very helpful tool. It reminds me of the Book of Matthew where Jesus, when speaking of the children says “the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these”. Today we are challenged in a different way then the people of the bible. We are flooded with information all the time. We place so much value on our many thoughts and the thoughts of others. In learning to stop them to an extent it reminded me not to rely on them so much and trust in God. We have been told not to worry and trust in God. Our own reasoning is not even close to the magnificence of the Lords. Meditation definaltely helps with the dillema of learning to let go of ourselves and our nonsense.

 

[ryanoneil]

Sorry for being unclear: that’s all me. I’ve taken relatively little from Zen, except for the actual practice in question.

Ok, thanks!

 

[rinnie]

Rinnie, you’re not getting it. “Meditation” in Roman Catholic spiritual writing is a technical term that refers to a type of prayer, specifically one in which the person praying actively thinks about and reflects on spiritual matters.

Zen is not meditation in this sense. Zen is a way to focus and clear your mind. You criticize it for not being prayer, but there is no reason for it to be prayer to begin with. And the Church has never condemned this. What the Church has condemned is syncretistic spirituality. You are misrepresenting Catholic teaching.

Your argument that zen cannot achieve a good without God is superficial. If God exists (as I acknowledge), then all good things including advancement in secular knowledge (whether it be zen or physics) come from Him. But that doesn’t mean that these good things are religious, or that this knowledge comes from divine revelation, or that it’s a form of prayer. In fact, you don’t need to know that God exists in order to achieve such goods, because the fact is frankly irrelevant. An atheist can do just as good physics as the believer.

I am also bewildered why you are constantly bringing up Scripture. It’s completely irrelevant to the discussion. AntiTheist is obviously not going to accept the authority of Scripture as his name might suggest, so it’s not a cogent debating point, and it’s not relevant to the topic under discussion either. Scripture says nothing about Zen. The authors of Scripture had never heard of Zen. As Catholics we believe in the unity of faith and reason, and in Catholic apologetics we help to prepare unbelievers to be receptive to divine grace by working with their reason and will, not by throwing Bible verses at them sub modo Protestantis. I’m objecting because it can be really counterproductive to use Evangelical Protestant tactics on people who pride themselves on their use of reason, especially when it’s something that we as Catholics share with them. I didn’t say anything earlier because AntiTheist responded to your points with perfect reasoning (and very good epistemology, imo). Just a friendly suggestion - my apologies if I crossed the line.

No, you are not hearing what I am saying. I understand what it is. I am saying that in Zen you are putting your mind in a state of emptyness. I completely understand Prayer is On Christ and only Christ.

But what I am saying we should not open our mind to absolutely nothing. That is not recommended. When the mind is completely cleared of nothingless evil can find its way in. That is what I am trying to say.

More or less the devil can come at any opportunity he can find.

 

[TheAtheist]

Zen is not meditation in this sense. Zen is a way to focus and clear your mind. You criticize it for not being prayer, but there is no reason for it to be prayer to begin with. And the Church has never condemned this. What the Church has condemned is syncretistic spirituality. You are misrepresenting Catholic teaching.

Is that what it is Cecilianus? I’m often left bewildered as to what exactly they are objecting to.

Although i have done a little double blind testing (can you blame me, it comes like second nature at this point) on Christian audiences regarding the issue:

1.) In scenario 1 i explain the concept of mindfulness and other meditative techniques to the best of my ability (full disclosure: i don’t meditate - it helps to avoid bias in my line of work) to the assembled group in question using only research data and cognitive theories.

Not a hint of religiousity anywhere in the presentation.

And most people come out of it agreeing with you and Mary - Diet/Exercise, something that can be done that’s beneficial for oneself.

2.) Scenario 2 - I do the above, but add a little emphasis on the origins and maybe even take a quote from a sutta…

You had better believe me when i say the game completely changes when a certain adjective is placed in front of “meditation…”

Oddly for the same exact phenomena!

 

[TheAtheist]

Thank you for that. It confirms the impression I had been getting.

There are still a few things that remain well in the realm of skepticism, such as the claim of certain practitioners ability to change your mental focus 17 times before snapping one’s fingers.

Whether that’s humanely possible or not - well, :turns on the fMRI: we’ll figure it out soon enough.

As a Buddhist looking at Christianity from the outside, it is the Catholic and Orthodox Churches that seem to have kept most of the Christian meditative tradition. Perhaps because both of them have preserved the monastic tradition of early Christianity. Meditation is more often practised by monks and nuns than by lay people. There are enough Buddhist techniques that effectively have zero religious content, such as counting breaths, to be useful as well as Christian meditations such as the Jesus Prayer. Obviously I cannot comment on the therapeutic use of those specific techniques.

rossum

Ah, but Rossum, at least from my perspective - its incredibly hard to coax them to “come out and play.” The Dalai Lama practically broke down our door more or less and threw it on the table - "Hey - do some experiments, we’ll prove ourselves right!’

There are enough Buddhist techniques that effectively have zero religious content, such as counting breaths,

Very unsure about that - while I might not consider it religious saying it “Buddhist” seems to automatically raise the alarm in many Christian groups.

 

[Cecilianus]

But what I am saying we should not open our mind to absolutely nothing. That is not recommended. When the mind is completely cleared of nothingless evil can find its way in. That is what I am trying to say.

More or less the devil can come at any opportunity he can find.

All right, now we are making progress in coming to a meeting of our minds. I agree that it can be dangerous to open your mind without knowing what you are opening your mind to. I think that yoga and transcendental meditation share in this danger (and note that a “danger” does not make something automatically morally forbidden in all circumstances). I am not sure that Zen does, because I don’t think Zen tries to hypnotize somebody - in fact, I don’t think it tries to “open” your mind at all except to clear it of junk, as AntiTheist explained. Zen seeks conceptual and perceptual clarity, not passivity to whatever spiritual energies may happen to come along and try to influence you.

 

[Cecilianus]

Is that what it is Cecilianus? I’m often left bewildered as to what exactly they are objecting to.

Yes; “meditation” is the beginning stage of mental prayer in Catholic spirituality, a more advanced form of prayer than vocal prayer but still an active stage rather than an infused grace like the highest stage, contemplation. (Of course, this three-stage model is very simplistic, but that’s the general outline of it.)

There are actually two different concerns that a Catholic may (and should) have before accepting something like Zen.

The first is religious syncretism. The goal of Catholic prayer - the Catholic concept of salvation - is slightly different than that of Oriental religions. Catholics seek to be united personally to God through grace given by God by virtue of Christ’s Incarnation which cannot be achieved through human effort or by natural, psychophysical techniques. Oriental religions generally assume that the ego must be seen through or extinguished, and they generally assume (with exceptions, of course) that this is some sort of natural process. In Catholic theology only Christ by being both fully human and fully God can bridge the gap between God and creation, and so sanctifying grace (that which unites us to God) can only come through Him - and not therefore through yoga or zen or transcendental meditation or what have you. And the fact that yoga and zen and transcendental meditation do not pretend to do what the Christian sacraments do is all the more reason not to try to combine the two, using Eastern meditation techniques as a form of prayer.

The second concern is that opening up the mind beyond what is naturally normal can be dangerous, because we believe in the existence of demons - purely intellectual (non-physical) minds which differ from the angels in being malicious. They can’t normally affect someone’s body (because they aren’t physical), but they can affect your mind in an adverse way, and by “adverse way” I don’t mean by causing natural psychological disorders which have a physical cause; I mean the devil can impede one’s spiritual progress and tempt one away from divine grace. And they are pure evil. You don’t want to mess around with the devil.

Secular hospitals routinely recommend exorcisms and turn their patients over to the Catholic Church when they have found that there is no natural cause for their patient’s disturbance - and exorcisms work. I can’t prove to you that the devil exists, any more than I can prove equally solid facts like the Big Bang. But I’m a scientist; I follow the most reasonable hypothesis. Having personally known people who have been exorcised and unfortunately personally witnessed phenomena for which there is no convincing natural explanation (and been given a clean psychological bill of health - I’m not schizophrenic and don’t have any other disorder causing hallucinations), I follow the most reasonable hypothesis.

That’s tangential though. You don’t need to be a Catholic to understand what we believe - and those are the two reasons why we would be at least wary of Zen before accepting it. It’s a foreign “religious” practice and Eastern meditation techniques are known for opening up the mind.

 

[Mary_Jessica]

I completely understand what you are saying and why. The only question I have is why you seem to fear opening up the mind. What is it that can vear one off track? I have found that it is a problem of my own that needs to be faced, my own weakness that I was not yet aware of. My personal deamons were brought to light through meditation so I could see them and reconize what they were. Granted taking on this challenge is hell. It is terrible, but some people see through it, some do not cower away at mere discomfort, some want to understand why it is there and how they can fix it. Some rare people are willing to see their faults and deamons and take them on and find truth. Not cower away because it may have been unpleasant for a while. That truth made me love the catholic faith even more these deamons are awful they are of our own making. Look at what man can do. But we all have them and just pretend they are not there. Maybe we should
look and see our own faults instead of finding them elsewhere. If
Anyone here believes in God and science they would know that god made all and the only reson evil exists is because we forgot that.

 

[OrdinaryMelkite]

I’m (of course) late to this discussion, but I’d like to posit this from my former New Age life and reading the writings of many fellow New Agers/Buddhists/Pagans (two of the best are our own Sharon Lee Giganti and the former Astrologer turned Protestant Marcia Montenegro—both of whom have excellent websites that talk about what I’m going to briefly discuss), it is generally accepted by most of these people (who have practiced meditation and have actual experience with it):

1. Meditation causes one to into a “no thought, mild trance state” where the concepts of “Good and Evil” no longer apply.
2. Critical thinking is done away with and everything is subjective.
3. It leaves one open to influence from “entities” and “spirits” that may or may not come from God. One can only guess where they come from. Remember what Paul said-----“Test the spirits” and “Not all spirits come from God.” That “channeled entity” named Bryce that you THINK is an “ascended master,” and which “came to you” while in the state of Meditation----and who says “he” is out to help you and humanity may actually be either a a) demon, B) bad spirit, or c) just plain entity that does not come from God and is really out to HARM you. So PLEASE, folks, be aware of that side of Meditation.

An example of the “subjectivity” that comes after engaging in eastern meditation or just plain New Age-type rituals that incorporate a form of mediationcomes from an interview that Shirley Mcclaine did with Joy Behar two days ago. Mcclaine claimed that the reason that she came to believe that a “past life” that came to her during hypnotic regression was real was because she became emotional while seeing it-----and “I would not have gotten so emotional about it if it wasn’t real.” I guess she forgets that the devil and his attendant spirits can make you do a LOT of things one would not think of doing if one is “open” to that type of manipulation.
And hypnosis is a form of trance and can involve meditation-type techniques. So ultimately, there you have it----I “feel” it, therefore it must be true. Total subjectivity.

 

[Cecilianus]

I’m (of course) late to this discussion, but I’d like to posit this from my former New Age life and reading the writings of many fellow New Agers/Buddhists/Pagans (two of the best are our own Sharon Lee Giganti and the former Astrologer turned Protestant Marcia Montenegro—both of whom have excellent websites that talk about what I’m going to briefly discuss), it is generally accepted by most of these people (who have practiced meditation and have actual experience with it):

1. Meditation causes one to into a “no thought, mild trance state” where the concepts of “Good and Evil” no longer apply.
2. Critical thinking is done away with and everything is subjective.
3. It leaves one open to influence from “entities” and “spirits” that may or may not come from God. One can only guess where they come from. Remember what Paul said-----“Test the spirits” and “Not all spirits come from God.” That “channeled entity” named Bryce that you THINK is an “ascended master,” and which “came to you” while in the state of Meditation----and who says “he” is out to help you and humanity may actually be either a a) demon, B) bad spirit, or c) just plain entity that does not come from God and is really out to HARM you. So PLEASE, folks, be aware of that side of Meditation.

An example of the “subjectivity” that comes after engaging in eastern meditation or just plain New Age-type rituals that incorporate a form of mediationcomes from an interview that Shirley Mcclaine did with Joy Behar two days ago. Mcclaine claimed that the reason that she came to believe that a “past life” that came to her during hypnotic regression was real was because she became emotional while seeing it-----and “I would not have gotten so emotional about it if it wasn’t real.” I guess she forgets that the devil and his attendant spirits can make you do a LOT of things one would not think of doing if one is “open” to that type of manipulation.
And hypnosis is a form of trance and can involve meditation-type techniques. So ultimately, there you have it----I “feel” it, therefore it must be true. Total subjectivity.

The question though is to whether Zen does this. I don’t practice it; I don’t know. I would have strong objection to something like transcendental meditation or centering prayer where these fears are definitely justified, but my understanding of Zen is that it’s more of a philosophical exercise. Zen kept coming to mind when I was reading about phenomenology - satori seemed to be awfully similar to the some of the experiences Edmund Husserl was describing. And most primary sources I have read from Zen practioners did not strike me as being at all subjective or opposed to critical thinking. Critical thinking isn’t what Zen does, but that’s because they think on a deeper level that transcends words - as does Christian prayer (a comparison I’m perfectly capable of making without turning Zen into a form of prayer). If you grasp a Zen paradox, you’re not setting aside critical thinking, you’re just grasping something that can’t be said in words. I’ve experienced this sort of thing before (not necessarily Zen koans, but other insights that you can’t say in words).

The concerns you mentioned are certainly things one should be aware of and on the watch for, though.

 

[OrdinaryMelkite]

The question though is to whether Zen does this. I don’t practice it; I don’t know. I would have strong objection to something like transcendental meditation or centering prayer where these fears are definitely justified, but my understanding of Zen is that it’s more of a philosophical exercise. Zen kept coming to mind when I was reading about phenomenology - satori seemed to be awfully similar to the some of the experiences Edmund Husserl was describing. And most primary sources I have read from Zen practioners did not strike me as being at all subjective or opposed to critical thinking. Critical thinking isn’t what Zen does, but that’s because they think on a deeper level that transcends words - as does Christian prayer (a comparison I’m perfectly capable of making without turning Zen into a form of prayer). If you grasp a Zen paradox, you’re not setting aside critical thinking, you’re just grasping something that can’t be said in words. I’ve experienced this sort of thing before (not necessarily Zen koans, but other insights that you can’t say in words).

The concerns you mentioned are certainly things one should be aware of and on the watch for, though.

Fair enough.
One thing, though, some koans’s meaning CAN be said in words.

Consider the most famous koan of all-----“when you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him.” That ultimately is mostly translated by most interpreters as saying “go beyond teaching----even the teaching of the buddha. Go into ‘not-knowing’ and knowledge will drop right into your lap.” Buddha himself said “question everything”—even his teaching. If it didn’t apply to one’s experience, discard it and find something else-----in other words, “kill the Buddha.”
It is not literally saying----“kill an already dead person named Buddha.”

Back to the subject, though-----
What I meant to say was that Orthodox Cahtolic understanding posits a mostly OBJECTIVE view of reality and knowledge—which can be arrived at by the use of reason and critical thinking, among other things.
Contemplation (particulalry the Christian kind) is different than meditation and can incorporate those things without leaving one vulnerable to possible attack by unknown and nameless entities that can do all kinds of things to you without you even knowing it.

Going beyond the famous “monkey mind” is counterproductive since our thoughts jump all over the place exactly because that is why they were designed to do----be part of the mind. Going beyond “mind” opens you up to “nothingness” or “the void”----the theory is that “not-knowing” will cause enlightenment to flash into your mind like a comet and you attain TRUE knowledge, peace, and wisdom. unfortunately, without “critical thinking” or at least some sense of “perspective” to fall back on instead of “direct experience,” HOW do you know that what you are experiencing IS really all of that? Or that it is ULTIMATE knowledge? IOW, the “truth?”
Like I said----it is very dangerous to beyond “mind”------because if all you get is “emptiness,” then who knows what or who is going to FILL that emptiness?

Also as well-----the Bible specifically forbids engaging in meditation-like practices. Read Deuteronomy. It is in there somewhere. So it is against God’s law as well. God mentions certain things in the Bible for a reason

 

[rinnie]

All right, now we are making progress in coming to a meeting of our minds. I agree that it can be dangerous to open your mind without knowing what you are opening your mind to. I think that yoga and transcendental meditation share in this danger (and note that a “danger” does not make something automatically morally forbidden in all circumstances). I am not sure that Zen does, because I don’t think Zen tries to hypnotize somebody - in fact, I don’t think it tries to “open” your mind at all except to clear it of junk, as AntiTheist explained. Zen seeks conceptual and perceptual clarity, not passivity to whatever spiritual energies may happen to come along and try to influence you.

Okay now here is my understanding from a Christian view point now. This is actually the best time of year to talk about it, Remember when Jesus went alone to Pray. (when the apostles fell asleep etc)? Okay. Now what the Church is saying in my understanding of Zen, if you feel the need for this practice what are you not getting out of Prayer.

Do you see my point here. The Way I understand it to be taught to me if you feel the need for Zen then there is something that is LACKING in prayer.

Those are the 2 rreasons it is not recommended by the church.

Again I have never compared it to prayer its not even on the same page. LIke I believe we both agree opposite sides of the fence per say.

One is to meditate on Christ the other is nothing. We are not taught as Christians to empty our minds of all throughts etc. We are taught as Jesus taught us to spend any free time we have on Prayer.

It is from Prayer that we receive all good things not just quite nothngless time as they say. We are taught to imitate Jesus Christ not Budda.

Or another way of putting this what can Zen do that Prayer can’t. Can Zen promise you help from the Holy Spirit? Peace that Christ Promises us from Prayer. Do you see what I mean?

 

[rinnie]

Sorry for being unclear: that’s all me. I’ve taken relatively little from Zen, except for the actual practice in question.

Okay now here is the teaching our my faith for Meditation.

2707 There are as many and varied methods of meditation as there are spiritual masters. Christians OWE it to themselves to develope the desire to meditate regularly lest they come to resemble the 3 kinds of soil in the parable of the sower. But a method is ONLY A GUIDE, the IMPORTANT thing is to ADVANCE with the HOLY SPRIIT along the ONE WAY of Prayer CHRIST JESUS.

Do you see now how we are taught the THeory and Practice of Meditation should be practiced. Your way is out, Jesus way is In!

Who is going to be our Master in Meditation? Someone has to. We make ours Christ. Zens master is Budda, that is all I am saying.

 

[rinnie]

Rinnie, you’re not getting it. “Meditation” in Roman Catholic spiritual writing is a technical term that refers to a type of prayer, specifically one in which the person praying actively thinks about and reflects on spiritual matters.

Zen is not meditation in this sense. Zen is a way to focus and clear your mind. You criticize it for not being prayer, but there is no reason for it to be prayer to begin with. And the Church has never condemned this. What the Church has condemned is syncretistic spirituality. You are misrepresenting Catholic teaching.

Your argument that zen cannot achieve a good without God is superficial. If God exists (as I acknowledge), then all good things including advancement in secular knowledge (whether it be zen or physics) come from Him. But that doesn’t mean that these good things are religious, or that this knowledge comes from divine revelation, or that it’s a form of prayer. In fact, you don’t need to know that God exists in order to achieve such goods, because the fact is frankly irrelevant. An atheist can do just as good physics as the believer.

I am also bewildered why you are constantly bringing up Scripture. It’s completely irrelevant to the discussion. AntiTheist is obviously not going to accept the authority of Scripture as his name might suggest, so it’s not a cogent debating point, and it’s not relevant to the topic under discussion either. Scripture says nothing about Zen. The authors of Scripture had never heard of Zen. As Catholics we believe in the unity of faith and reason, and in Catholic apologetics we help to prepare unbelievers to be receptive to divine grace by working with their reason and will, not by throwing Bible verses at them sub modo Protestantis. I’m objecting because it can be really counterproductive to use Evangelical Protestant tactics on people who pride themselves on their use of reason, especially when it’s something that we as Catholics share with them. I didn’t say anything earlier because AntiTheist responded to your points with perfect reasoning (and very good epistemology, imo). Just a friendly suggestion - my apologies if I crossed the line.

Well lets back up here a minute. Zen is a form of meditation correct? I am having such a hard time showing my point so bear with me.

Okay you have to agree Zen is a form of meditation. Now in Zen you empty your throughts totally of everything. Correct?

 

[rinnie]

I’m (of course) late to this discussion, but I’d like to posit this from my former New Age life and reading the writings of many fellow New Agers/Buddhists/Pagans (two of the best are our own Sharon Lee Giganti and the former Astrologer turned Protestant Marcia Montenegro—both of whom have excellent websites that talk about what I’m going to briefly discuss), it is generally accepted by most of these people (who have practiced meditation and have actual experience with it):

1. Meditation causes one to into a “no thought, mild trance state” where the concepts of “Good and Evil” no longer apply.
2. Critical thinking is done away with and everything is subjective.
3. It leaves one open to influence from “entities” and “spirits” that may or may not come from God. One can only guess where they come from. Remember what Paul said-----“Test the spirits” and “Not all spirits come from God.” That “channeled entity” named Bryce that you THINK is an “ascended master,” and which “came to you” while in the state of Meditation----and who says “he” is out to help you and humanity may actually be either a a) demon, B) bad spirit, or c) just plain entity that does not come from God and is really out to HARM you. So PLEASE, folks, be aware of that side of Meditation.

An example of the “subjectivity” that comes after engaging in eastern meditation or just plain New Age-type rituals that incorporate a form of mediationcomes from an interview that Shirley Mcclaine did with Joy Behar two days ago. Mcclaine claimed that the reason that she came to believe that a “past life” that came to her during hypnotic regression was real was because she became emotional while seeing it-----and “I would not have gotten so emotional about it if it wasn’t real.” I guess she forgets that the devil and his attendant spirits can make you do a LOT of things one would not think of doing if one is “open” to that type of manipulation.
And hypnosis is a form of trance and can involve meditation-type techniques. So ultimately, there you have it----I “feel” it, therefore it must be true. Total subjectivity.

What you wrote in #3 for me is hitting the nail on the head. And my question which has never been answered is simply this. What is Christian Prayer lacking that Zen can fulfill?

SImple as that. All I get is, Rinne you disagree for the million time we know. But I am not getting any answers to my questions. Or I get Rinnie it is not Prayer. I know that also.

I am just asking someone to show me where this can help better then Christian Prayer is all. Actually where this can help us at all?

I am told that you are searching for truth within yourself? I ask where is truth? Can we find truth within our self w/o the Holy Spirit? Thats my question?

Because my answer is NO. There is no truth in you if it does not come from God. To say that we are the souce of all truth would be to say we can do it alone.

Where in the word of God are we taught to do this? Thats all I am asking.

But I can show you in the word of God what we are taught to do. Matt 26:36 We are taught to do as Christ does Pray. How did he pray? Why did he Pray? Why did he not just empty his thoughts? I am just asking. Why does the Church not teach this if it can help us? I am again just asking. I am just looking for my answers now is all.

Show me where this is helping me. Show me where this can give me Peace? We are taught to imitate Christ are we not? SHow me where this is imitating Christ, thats all I am asking.

My answer will be, I am NOT saying this is imitating Christ. Then we will get somewhere who are we imitating then? THere you go. Case Closed.

 

[rinnie]

Zen is a special transmission beyond word and letter and is passed down from generation to generation. A person who passes on what is called pharma heir.

 

[OrdinaryMelkite]

What you wrote in #3 for me is hitting the nail on the head. And my question which has never been answered is simply this. What is Christian Prayer lacking that Zen can fulfill?

SImple as that. All I get is, Rinne you disagree for the million time we know. But I am not getting any answers to my questions. Or I get Rinnie it is not Prayer. I know that also.

I am just asking someone to show me where this can help better then Christian Prayer is all. Actually where this can help us at all?

I am told that you are searching for truth within yourself? I ask where is truth? Can we find truth within our self w/o the Holy Spirit? Thats my question?

Because my answer is NO. There is no truth in you if it does not come from God. To say that we are the souce of all truth would be to say we can do it alone.

Where in the word of God are we taught to do this? Thats all I am asking.

But I can show you in the word of God what we are taught to do. Matt 26:36 We are taught to do as Christ does Pray. How did he pray? Why did he Pray? Why did he not just empty his thoughts? I am just asking. Why does the Church not teach this if it can help us? I am again just asking. I am just looking for my answers now is all.

Show me where this is helping me. Show me where this can give me Peace? We are taught to imitate Christ are we not? SHow me where this is imitating Christ, thats all I am asking.

My answer will be, I am NOT saying this is imitating Christ. Then we will get somewhere who are we imitating then? THere you go. Case Closed.

You make some good points there, Rinnie. Good post.

 

[Cecilianus]

Okay now here is my understanding from a Christian view point now. This is actually the best time of year to talk about it, Remember when Jesus went alone to Pray. (when the apostles fell asleep etc)? Okay. Now what the Church is saying in my understanding of Zen, if you feel the need for this practice what are you not getting out of Prayer.

Do you see my point here. The Way I understand it to be taught to me if you feel the need for Zen then there is something that is LACKING in prayer.

Those are the 2 rreasons it is not recommended by the church.

Again I have never compared it to prayer its not even on the same page. LIke I believe we both agree opposite sides of the fence per say.

One is to meditate on Christ the other is nothing. We are not taught as Christians to empty our minds of all throughts etc. We are taught as Jesus taught us to spend any free time we have on Prayer.

It is from Prayer that we receive all good things not just quite nothngless time as they say. We are taught to imitate Jesus Christ not Budda.

Or another way of putting this what can Zen do that Prayer can’t. Can Zen promise you help from the Holy Spirit? Peace that Christ Promises us from Prayer. Do you see what I mean?

What can Zen do that prayer can’t?

Satori.

And even before you reach satori, freshened or renewed awareness of the beauty of the world. Reading accounts by practitioners of Zen, it seems that they all see the world with the same clarity, joy, and intensity as Chesterton did. Like Chesterton, practitioners of Zen seek the “transcendentalization of the everyday object”, to borrow the terminology of Novalis. That’s really the closest word there is to describe it, though I suppose unless you’re familiar with critical philosophy it probably doesn’t help you much to understand it. (Kant makes a very clear distinction in the Critique of Pure Reason between the “transcendent” and the “transcendental”, and Novalis is following the second term.)

Zen never promises “that peace which surpasseth understanding”, and that was part of my whole point about Zen and prayer being different. You shouldn’t replace prayer with Zen. Physics doesn’t promise that peace either. But that isn’t going to keep me from doing it.

Could you please clarify what you mean by “nothingless”? Do you mean “nothingness”, or something different?

Also, nota bene, we are not supposed to imitate Buddha, according to Buddhism. “If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him.”

 

[Cecilianus]

Zens master is Budda, that is all I am saying.

Zen’s master is not Buddha. On the continuum of strains of Buddhism ranging from the most dependent on self-effort to the ones most dependent on faith, Zen is the extreme on the “Pelagian” end. You must be your own master in order to attain satori, as with any other intellectual illumination. No philosophy professor can teach me a difficult concept in philosophy; I either come to and understanding on my own intellectual efforts or I don’t. The professor can’t do my thinking for me. As far as I can tell, satori is just a very intense and higher form of intellectio, or simple illumination.