Zen Meditation: Theory and Practice

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Well lets back up here a minute. Zen is a form of meditation correct? I am having such a hard time showing my point so bear with me.

Okay you have to agree Zen is a form of meditation. Now in Zen you empty your throughts totally of everything. Correct?
“Meditation” is an ambiguous term with several analogous meanings. On the one hand, it is a technical term that refers to a stage in Christian mental prayer. In this sense, Zen is not meditation. On the other hand, it can just mean “shutting up and keeping still”. In this sense, Zen is meditation.

St. Thomas Aquinas solved almost all of the problems he tackled in the Summa by making distinctions between analogous uses of words. It is a good method to keep following.
 
What you wrote in #3 for me is hitting the nail on the head. And my question which has never been answered is simply this. What is Christian Prayer lacking that Zen can fulfill?
Who (besides you) said that Christian prayer was lacking anything?

Perhaps other people practice Zen because they would rather do that than pray. It’s not for me to judge their souls. If I ever have the time to practice Zen, it won’t be as a replacement for or confusion with prayer. It will be because I want greater insight into the world - I want to transcend (verbal) philosophy.

It’s like saying “You would only do physics if Christian prayer is lacking something”. I’m not a physicist my prayer is lacking (my prayer may very well be lacking - that’s between me, God, and my spiritual father - but it isn’t the cause of my interest in physics). I do physics because I want to understand the world - I want to do philosophy. Same with Zen, except the degree of insight is much more profound than physics has to offer.
I am told that you are searching for truth within yourself? I ask where is truth? Can we find truth within our self w/o the Holy Spirit? Thats my question?
I seek for truth in physics. That is not within myself, however. I also seek it through the transcendental dialectic (Kant’s philosophy). That is within myself, but it is psychology, not spirituality. I seek truth in art and beauty. And I seek truth in paradox and mystery - whether from natural insights (like you will read in Nagarjuna and Samkara) or supernatural ones (like you will read in the Fathers and Doctors of the Church).
Because my answer is NO. There is no truth in you if it does not come from God. To say that we are the souce of all truth would be to say we can do it alone.
One can perceive truth through natural means (without having recourse to God) without being the “source” of truth. God is the cause of all in an analogous sense, but the natural order is very real. One does not need to appeal to God to understand the natural order.
Where in the word of God are we taught to do this? Thats all I am asking.
But I can show you in the word of God what we are taught to do. Matt 26:36 We are taught to do as Christ does Pray. How did he pray? Why did he Pray? Why did he not just empty his thoughts? I am just asking. Why does the Church not teach this if it can help us? I am again just asking. I am just looking for my answers now is all.
Show me where this is helping me. Show me where this can give me Peace? We are taught to imitate Christ are we not? SHow me where this is imitating Christ, thats all I am asking.
Sola Scriptura heresy, except that even the Protestant formulation of this error usually does not require Scriptural justification for purely non-religious activities.
My answer will be, I am NOT saying this is imitating Christ. Then we will get somewhere who are we imitating then? THere you go. Case Closed.🤷
If you’d be imitating anyone, it would be whoever taught you how to practice Zen. That’s no different than me imitating my physics professors by doing my own physics research. Who said we have to be “imitating” anyone in a special sense at all? You talk as if anything other than prayer is an imitation of the devil. Go eat a peanut butter sandwich, and think about whom you are imitating by doing so. (Actually, that would be a pretty good Zen exercise anyway:thumbsup:.)
 
Who (besides you) said that Christian prayer was lacking anything?

Perhaps other people practice Zen because they would rather do that than pray. It’s not for me to judge their souls. If I ever have the time to practice Zen, it won’t be as a replacement for or confusion with prayer. It will be because I want greater insight into the world - I want to transcend (verbal) philosophy.

It’s like saying “You would only do physics if Christian prayer is lacking something”. I’m not a physicist my prayer is lacking (my prayer may very well be lacking - that’s between me, God, and my spiritual father - but it isn’t the cause of my interest in physics). I do physics because I want to understand the world - I want to do philosophy. Same with Zen, except the degree of insight is much more profound than physics has to offer.

I seek for truth in physics. That is not within myself, however. I also seek it through the transcendental dialectic (Kant’s philosophy). That is within myself, but it is psychology, not spirituality. I seek truth in art and beauty. And I seek truth in paradox and mystery - whether from natural insights (like you will read in Nagarjuna and Samkara) or supernatural ones (like you will read in the Fathers and Doctors of the Church).

One can perceive truth through natural means (without having recourse to God) without being the “source” of truth. God is the cause of all in an analogous sense, but the natural order is very real. One does not need to appeal to God to understand the natural order.

Sola Scriptura heresy, except that even the Protestant formulation of this error usually does not require Scriptural justification for purely non-religious activities.

If you’d be imitating anyone, it would be whoever taught you how to practice Zen. That’s no different than me imitating my physics professors by doing my own physics research. Who said we have to be “imitating” anyone in a special sense at all? You talk as if anything other than prayer is an imitation of the devil. Go eat a peanut butter sandwich, and think about whom you are imitating by doing so. (Actually, that would be a pretty good Zen exercise anyway:thumbsup:.)
The Pope. The Pope said that if we feel the NEED to turn to this, then there is a reason. Christ said that all that is need is Christian Prayer.

Now if you say we are not saying you NEED it, then what is its purpose. What can it do that Christian Prayer cannot.

To put it bluntly it would be slapping our faith in the face you could say. Because this is reaching outside of Christian Prayer and faith do you not agree.

If you do not agree where in the teachings of the Church is it taught to us. Everything that we need is taught to us from Christ. CHrist did it all for us. Now if you can show me where Christ or the CHURCH teaches this, then you have a leg to stand on.

According to the teachings of the CC all that we need is given to us by Christ through Christ. Now how can we receive something that we NEED without the intercession of Christ. Thats my point!😃
 
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Who (besides you) said that Christian prayer was lacking anything?

Perhaps other people practice Zen because they would rather do that than pray. It’s not for me to judge their souls. [SIGN]If I ever have the time to practice Zen, it won’t be as a replacement for or confusion with prayer. It will be because I want greater insight into the [/SIGN]world - I want to transcend (verbal) philosophy.

It’s like saying “You would only do physics if Christian prayer is lacking something”. I’m not a physicist my prayer is lacking (my prayer may very well be lacking - that’s between me, God, and my spiritual father - but it isn’t the cause of my interest in physics). I do physics because I want to understand the world - I want to do philosophy. Same with Zen, except the degree of insight is much more profound than physics has to offer.

I seek for truth in physics. That is not within myself, however. I also seek it through the transcendental dialectic (Kant’s philosophy). That is within myself, but it is psychology, not spirituality. I seek truth in art and beauty. And I seek truth in paradox and mystery - whether from natural insights (like you will read in Nagarjuna and Samkara) or supernatural ones (like you will read in the Fathers and Doctors of the Church).

One can perceive truth through natural means (without having recourse to God) without being the “source” of truth. God is the cause of all in an analogous sense, but the natural order is very real. One does not need to appeal to God to understand the natural order.

Sola Scriptura heresy, except that even the Protestant formulation of this error usually does not require Scriptural justification for purely non-religious activities.

If you’d be imitating anyone, it would be whoever taught you how to practice Zen. That’s no different than me imitating my physics professors by doing my own physics research. Who said we have to be “imitating” anyone in a special sense at all? You talk as if anything other than prayer is an imitation of the devil. Go eat a peanut butter sandwich, and think about whom you are imitating by doing so. (Actually, that would be a pretty good Zen exercise anyway:thumbsup:.)
There it is you just said a mouthful! You just said yourself you feel it would gain you greater insight into the world. How is this possible for anything to gain you greater insight into the world then Prayer? Thats what you have to show me.

How can I perceive truth OUTSIDE OF CHRIST? by natural means when all thing and all truth comes from Christ. Without having recourse to God. SHow me how this is possible. When all things come from God. Again thats all I am asking.
 
Who (besides you) said that Christian prayer was lacking anything?

Perhaps other people practice Zen because they would rather do that than pray. It’s not for me to judge their souls. If I ever have the time to practice Zen, it won’t be as a replacement for or confusion with prayer. It will be because I want greater insight into the world - I want to transcend (verbal) philosophy.

It’s like saying “You would only do physics if Christian prayer is lacking something”. I’m not a physicist my prayer is lacking (my prayer may very well be lacking - that’s between me, God, and my spiritual father - but it isn’t the cause of my interest in physics). I do physics because I want to understand the world - I want to do philosophy. Same with Zen, except the degree of insight is much more profound than physics has to offer.

I seek for truth in physics. That is not within myself, however. I also seek it through the transcendental dialectic (Kant’s philosophy). That is within myself, but it is psychology, not spirituality. I seek truth in art and beauty. And I seek truth in paradox and mystery - whether from natural insights (like you will read in Nagarjuna and Samkara) or supernatural ones (like you will read in the Fathers and Doctors of the Church).

One can perceive truth through natural means (without having recourse to God) without being the “source” of truth. God is the cause of all in an analogous sense, but the natural order is very real. One does not need to appeal to God to understand the natural order.

Sola Scriptura heresy, except that even the Protestant formulation of this error usually does not require Scriptural justification for purely non-religious activities.

If you’d be imitating anyone, it would be whoever taught you how to practice Zen. That’s no different than me imitating my physics professors by doing my own physics research. Who said we have to be “imitating” anyone in a special sense at all? You talk as if anything other than prayer is an imitation of the devil. Go eat a peanut butter sandwich, and think about whom you are imitating by doing so. (Actually, that would be a pretty good Zen exercise anyway:thumbsup:.)
I agree and where did Zen come from. Who was the teacher of Zen? Just like the Pope who does the Pope imitate. Where does all of his teaching’s stem from. 😉

Where is the source of Zen?
 
And where am I speaking out of the theory and practice of Zen put me in the position of playing God.

Where did I ever judge any souls here. All I did was do my best to show it is not in line with our faith. And if we are Christian we are to believe that all truth is revealed to us from Jesus Christ and through Jesus Christ. And there IS no other means.
 
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There it is you just said a mouthful! You just said yourself you feel it would gain you greater insight into the world. How is this possible for anything to gain you greater insight into the world then Prayer? Thats what you have to show me.

How can I perceive truth OUTSIDE OF CHRIST? by natural means when all thing and all truth comes from Christ. Without having recourse to God. SHow me how this is possible. When all things come from God. Again thats all I am asking.
Here is what scripture says.

See to it that no one captivate you with an empty seductive philosophy according to human tradition according to the elemental powers of the world and not according to Christ.

For IN HIM dwells the whole fullness of the deity bodily and you share in this fullness in him who is the head of EVERY principality and Power.
 
Zen’s master is not Buddha. On the continuum of strains of Buddhism ranging from the most dependent on self-effort to the ones most dependent on faith, Zen is the extreme on the “Pelagian” end. You must be your own master in order to attain satori, as with any other intellectual illumination. No philosophy professor can teach me a difficult concept in philosophy; I either come to and understanding on my own intellectual efforts or I don’t. The professor can’t do my thinking for me. As far as I can tell, satori is just a very intense and higher form of intellectio, or simple illumination.
I was told that the first person to use the Zen Method to attain enlightment was Siddharta Gautama or Shakyamuni Budda. Is this true or not. IF not then who was the first who claimed to master it?

If you are not imitating him who are you imitating? Where did you learn it from?
 
I’m (of course) late to this discussion, but I’d like to posit this from my former New Age life and reading the writings of many fellow New Agers/Buddhists/Pagans (two of the best are our own Sharon Lee Giganti and the former Astrologer turned Protestant Marcia Montenegro—both of whom have excellent websites that talk about what I’m going to briefly discuss), it is generally accepted by most of these people (who have practiced meditation and have actual experience with it):
A question from the peanut gallery - why does everyone group Buddhism with the New Age movement or Paganism in its modern format?

Or is it that the contact that a person has in the West limited to a type of Buddhism that panders to such crowds versus traditional asian buddhism? (which actually has a lot more in common with you guys in terms of ethical beliefs than with either NeoPagans or the New Age movement)
 
“Meditation” is an ambiguous term with several analogous meanings. On the one hand, it is a technical term that refers to a stage in Christian mental prayer. In this sense, Zen is not meditation. On the other hand, it can just mean “shutting up and keeping still”. In this sense, Zen is meditation.

St. Thomas Aquinas solved almost all of the problems he tackled in the Summa by making distinctions between analogous uses of words. It is a good method to keep following.
Okay lets have it your way zen is not meditation but on the other hand zen is meditation. How about you quit arguing with yourself then you can begin to argue with me.

I told you point blank not one hand or another hand I said I agree Zen is not prayer. Why do you continue to say its not Christian Prayer. We are cool with that. ITs not.

Christian pray has Jesus Christ at the center. I asked you a Simple question what can Zen do for me that Christan Prayer cannot. Lets start there first. Okay. I did my part I showed you what I was taught by my Catholic faith. SHow me where I am wrong.

SHow me where Zen can HELP me where Christian Prayer Cannot. Lets begin there. You continue to fumble the ball. Now you either pass the ball and make a completion or you Punt. Game on!
 
A question from the peanut gallery - why does everyone group Buddhism with the New Age movement or Paganism in its modern format?

Or is it that the contact that a person has in the West limited to a type of Buddhism that panders to such crowds versus traditional asian buddhism? (which actually has a lot more in common with you guys in terms of ethical beliefs than with either NeoPagans or the New Age movement)
Could it possibly be because thats where it came from?:idea: Could you show me that it did not come from Buddhism and is not Yoga a New age movement of Buddhism?
 
What can Zen do that prayer can’t?

Satori.

And even before you reach satori, freshened or renewed awareness of the beauty of the world. Reading accounts by practitioners of Zen, it seems that they all see the world with the same clarity, joy, and intensity as Chesterton did. Like Chesterton, practitioners of Zen seek the “transcendentalization of the everyday object”, to borrow the terminology of Novalis. That’s really the closest word there is to describe it, though I suppose unless you’re familiar with critical philosophy it probably doesn’t help you much to understand it. (Kant makes a very clear distinction in the Critique of Pure Reason between the “transcendent” and the “transcendental”, and Novalis is following the second term.)

Zen never promises “that peace which surpasseth understanding”, and that was part of my whole point about Zen and prayer being different. You shouldn’t replace prayer with Zen. Physics doesn’t promise that peace either. But that isn’t going to keep me from doing it.

Could you please clarify what you mean by “nothingless”? Do you mean “nothingness”, or something different?

Also, nota bene, we are not supposed to imitate Buddha, according to Buddhism. “If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him.”
Again you refuse to answer my question. what did Christian prayer not meet? ANd you are right it is not helping me much. I like to keep it simple. How about you do this for me.

Bring it down to my level. Make it simple, show me in simple terms what Christ cannot do for me that Zen can. It that too difficult for you to do. Because from what you are posting it seems to be.

I can make the teaching’s of Christ simple. Simply because I really do understand Christian prayer.

So in order to really understand something you can make it simple that anyone can understand. First rule in teaching. If you do not understand something you cannot teach it! But if you understand it you can make it simple.

Everyone can understand that when we pray we believe that we are praying to God the that it is through the intercession of his SON JESUS CHRIST. Pretty clear what Christian Prayer is. Do you not agree.

Also according to Buddhism if you meet Buddha on the road KILL HIM. What kind of talk is that really. Did you ever hear a Christian say if you meet Jesus Christ on the road kill him?:eek:

Let me tell you this. If you ever meet Jesus Christ on the Road, you bow down and you ask him to forgive your sin. You Worship him. Thats what you do. Pretty simple isn’t it.

Now you turn show me what Zen can do for me in Layman terms that Christian Prayer Cannot. Is that better?
 
By the Way Christ does promise Peace through Prayer. Christ does promise GRACE through Prayer. What can the Grace that I acquire through prayer not do for me that Zen can?

Again Laymans terms please. So all can understand. Jesus never had to dance to preach or confuse people he was PONT BLANK right between the eyes. How about you try that. 😃
 
A question from the peanut gallery - why does everyone group Buddhism with the New Age movement or Paganism in its modern format?

Or is it that the contact that a person has in the West limited to a type of Buddhism that panders to such crowds versus traditional asian buddhism? (which actually has a lot more in common with you guys in terms of ethical beliefs than with either NeoPagans or the New Age movement)
The “New Age” movement as we know it today derives strongly (and majorly) from buddhistic, hindu, esoteric, and other eastern, oriental sources. “Blame” Helena Blavatsky and the Theosophical movement for that, which grafted eastern philosophies/religions into christian concepts. That and occult ideas going (supposedly) back to Lemurian and Atlantean times.🤷

The New Age itself has atheistic overtones, in case you didn’t know. At least bordering on it. Study Eckhart Tolle’s writings. They are pantheistic but with a strong buddhistic (atheistic) flavor. 👍🙂
 
The “New Age” movement as we know it today derives strongly (and majorly) from buddhistic, hindu, esoteric, and other eastern, oriental sources. “Blame” Helena Blavatsky and the Theosophical movement for that, which grafted eastern philosophies/religions into christian concepts. That and occult ideas going (supposedly) back to Lemurian and Atlantean times.🤷

The New Age itself has atheistic overtones, in case you didn’t know. At least bordering on it. Study Eckhart Tolle’s writings. They are pantheistic but with a strong buddhistic (atheistic) flavor. 👍🙂
Understandable. However, when you cast Buddhism in amongst that crowd, you do so without making distinctions within the whole tradition as if it were monolithic.

To me its like trying to hold you and all of Christianity as a wider tradition accountable for the actions and belief systems of David Koresh.

As for its categorization as “atheistic” - my only reply to that (and please bear in mind the label i carry) is to say “Which Version?”

that’s a very important question.

If your saying that Buddhism is atheistic in the sense that it denies an all powerful creator deity, sure…but i can point a bunch of tribal and shamanic religions who follow in suit and still would be more properly called Polytheistic.

The predominant forms of Buddhism in Asia are devotional. The whole subsection of Mahayana Buddhism believes in buddhas and bodhisattvas in as much as you believe in your Saints.

Case in point, Pure Land Buddhism which is an incredibly popular version of Buddhism in East Asia (possibly the most popular version) is built around the promise of Buddha named Amithaba who would build a pure land outside of space/time wherein if you are reborn into such a place by placing devotion in his name - you will escape the cycle of reincarnation.

Nichiren, Tendai, and other forms of Buddhism believe in the revelation of the Lotus Sutra, which states that the Buddha is “omnipresent, omniscient, and eternal.” Having Faith in the Lotus Sutra can save you from a bad reincarnation and put you on the path toward enlightenment.

And I think the most glaring observation to be made is Tibetan Buddhism, which has a similar institutional structure. I would be hard pressed to call the Dalai Lama an atheist when he’s supposed to be an emanation of the Bodhisattva Avalokitesvara. I mean heck, there’s a reason why he gets invites to the Vatican under JPII and the current occupant of the papal throne - he gets invited not as a philosopher but as a religious leader.

If the characterization of Buddhism is solely in that phase of "New Age-ism,"if the two could be equated together totally, i swear to you the Dalai Lama wouldn’t even make it past the front door in the same way no NeoPagan leader has ever had an audience within the Vatican.

I’m starting to wonder if this is a matter of some sort of cognitive dissonance between the way Western Catholics view eastern religion versus Eastern Catholics.

For you folks, Eastern religion in general is bound up in some bizarre occultism.

For your Catholic brethren living in China or Japan, etc. They are simply different religions - like Islam or Judaism.

There’s a distinct lack of a sense of threat coming from them. They’ve also been noted to work together politically in places like South Korea against what you might describe as “liberal secularists”

A thought occurs to me - the New Agers are usually identify themselves amongst the liberal secularists in the West…while the traditional practitioners of Buddhism tend to be seen as the stalwart defenders of a conservative morality in the East.

I guess where i’m getting confused is there’s something paradoxical about the picture you paint in regards to Buddhism as practiced in the West versus its original stomping grounds.

it as different as night and day…or Catholicism and Protestantism if you like 😉
 
I have to agree with The Athiest on this one. It is not fair to group all of this together under " New Age"whatever thar even is. I really have found no real organization or concrete idea of the New Age movement. That is really dangerous considering people are gullible and any person out there can say “follow me and I will give you salvation”. We see how that can turn out. Buddhisim is one of those time tested ancient religions or philosophies that I think, even as a Catholic deserve respect. Look at all the Chinese government has put them through. For many the Dali lama is a symbol of hope for people living in a society often ruled by fear. The notion of having more than just the material is something that can keep people from being controlled by fear and force. When people are reduced to the level of animals and just mere survival they can become easily controlled and loose moral codes. There is a lot of Truth to something that lasts. The beliefs in Loving and respecting all of creation and seeing the interconnectedness of all is very beautiful. The ideas of how to behave in order to maintain personal peace and thus spread that to others also is very useful. I think that as Christians we agree with these principals. So by practicing an idea that is shared by both faiths can hardly be harmful. For all we know we could be doing something a Buddhist would do without even knowing it, then would it be wrong? Or is it only when someone happens to be educated on other cultures.
 
I know it’s not a 1 to 1 comparison but “it is no longer I that live but Christ that lives in me” and “being one with the Tao” are quite similair.
 
I’m starting to wonder if this is a matter of some sort of cognitive dissonance between the way Western Catholics view eastern religion versus Eastern Catholics.

For you folks, Eastern religion in general is bound up in some bizarre occultism.

For your Catholic brethren living in China or Japan, etc. They are simply different religions - like Islam or Judaism.

I find this very interesting. I have spent quite a bit of time studying the effects of spiritual phenoma amongst different religions and cultures. From what I have seen so far is that western Christians have the hardest time dealing with the effects. (I am not sure if you are interested in this because you are an Athiest) but I will throw this out there. The majority of Christian saints have at one point or another lived a contemplative or monastic type life. After this time in isolation and reflection they all seem to have a
moment where they feel the prescense of God, very similar to a Sadmahi experiance. The difference comes in when the changes occurring after this typically are frightening and somewhat torturous to Western Catholics. St. John of the cross gives a great description.
Even our late Pope has admitted to a similar occurrence. He also desired to live the monastic type life. Now for a Buddhist or someone practicing certain types of Yoga these things are expected and they know what is going on and how to handle it. They typically have much less upheaval after a spiritual phenomena or none if they were on a disciplined path from an earlier age. The interesting difference I think is the structure. The more structured the spiritual path pertaining to normal everyday activities the better the outcome. This also includes structure in meditation they don’t just say “meditate on this” they learn how, thus reaping the more positive benifits.
 
I find this very interesting. I have spent quite a bit of time studying the effects of spiritual phenoma amongst different religions and cultures. From what I have seen so far is that western Christians have the hardest time dealing with the effects. (I am not sure if you are interested in this because you are an Athiest) but I will throw this out there. The majority of Christian saints have at one point or another lived a contemplative or monastic type life. After this time in isolation and reflection they all seem to have a
moment where they feel the prescense of God, very similar to a Sadmahi experiance. The difference comes in when the changes occurring after this typically are frightening and somewhat torturous to Western Catholics. St. John of the cross gives a great description.
Even our late Pope has admitted to a similar occurrence. He also desired to live the monastic type life. Now for a Buddhist or someone practicing certain types of Yoga these things are expected and they know what is going on and how to handle it. They typically have much less upheaval after a spiritual phenomena or none if they were on a disciplined path from an earlier age. The interesting difference I think is the structure. The more structured the spiritual path pertaining to normal everyday activities the better the outcome. This also includes structure in meditation they don’t just say “meditate on this” they learn how, thus reaping the more positive benifits.
Well, you have a bunch of ideas but i’ll need to address them in a more concrete format.

1.) well, the section where you quoted me was speaking toward a kind of sociological phenomena i’m finding. Let me try to make this into a concrete example:

Say i’m talking about the effects of certain buddhist meditation practices to a Western audience. The moment i mention “buddhist” it sets off a chain of associations in your head - notions acquired from your encounter with the term.

If i can take certain respondents claims to be indicative of the “average lay Catholic” ~ Buddhism, Hinduism, and Daoism come wrapped in this greater label of “New Age.” And the response seems to be to castigate these religious traditions under that label. It is grouped in together with fears of religious syncretism, occultism, and very odd beliefs.

So I hop a plane and give the same talk say in downtown Tokyo, Japan or Chennai, India and give the same exact talk to an audience there. The “average lay Catholic” in those areas is not going to associate those 3 religions with some sort of “Age of Aquarius” ideas.

The Buddhist or Hindu or Daoist is their neighbor - not a cultist. They live very normal average lives, have the same practical concerns they do (job, taxes, health, education, etc), and in times of moral and spiritual turmoil go to their respective places of worship and pray.

And more often than not their mannerisms and beliefs are very traditional…and thereby very anti-New Age.

However…in regards to what you’ve stated above…

2.) I can’t speak to spiritual experiences - but i can speak to the investigation of one’s brain states while your having those experiences (and whether i believe in them or not is irrelevant because i’m concentrated on your physiological reaction rather than the phenomena itself)

I will say this though, your observation seems sound.

Western Christianity in general seems to eschew looking deep inside within the mind, or even the approved traditional forms of meditation. If i recall correctly, even people you admire as saints such as Teresa of Avila or St. John of the Cross got more than a couple look overs by the Spanish Inquisition - especially regarding their mystical experiences.

Suspicion. Always an air of suspicion.

I can contrast this for instance not with an Asian religion, but with Orthodox Christianity.

You had mentioned for instance, about having a distinct lack of a set program of meditation right? Well - Orthodox Christianity seems to have some:

1.) St. John Climachus’ “The Ladder of Divine Ascent”

2.) Hesychasm (which i’ve been told is a sticking point in terms of Catholic-Orthodox dialogue)

They seem a lot more willing to provide structure and a lot less suspicious of meditation than either Catholicism or the various Protestant sects.

.
 
1.) well, the section where you quoted me was speaking toward a kind of sociological phenomena i’m finding. Let me try to make this into a concrete example:
I know that is what you meant but it made me think of the same pattern regarding spiritual phenomena. And you ,I think are right. Regardless of a persons religion they are going to be very influenced by their culture. The suspicion in our country regarding different religions has been around from the start look at the Puritans. Just like when I was growing up and baptists said the pope was the anti-Christ. Catholics in general are less close minded, but we live in a very Protestant nation and it has an influence. Just like my neighbor thinks I have demons in my house because I have a pet snake.
 
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