Zen Meditation: Theory and Practice

[AntiTheist]

So I might more correctly have stated “… happening to “you” as another body” as we have “nothing” in common. Knowing that, you still drink beer, change the kid’s diapers, and smooch the wife. And maybe work at a soup kitchen for nothing.

Yes. We just do stuff. When asked about Zen, some teacher whose name I can’t recall said, “When we’re hungry, we eat. When we get dressed, we put on our clothes.”

That’s it – it’s just the stuff you always do, but you do it with pointed awareness.

So whether you work at a soup kitchen or a drink a beer, you do it because that’s what you do. You just do it, and you pay attention. If, however, you start thinking thoughts like, “Oh, gee, look how holy I am,” then you’re narrating a story about yourself, and that can easily distract you from the moment or lead you astray. So you notice these stories as stories that you’re telling yourself and bring your mind back to reality. You wouldn’t think you’re so special and so holy for drinking a beer, and you have no more reason to have those thoughts about working at a soup kitchen.

Sufjon:

Another good start is alternate nostril breathing, which is a form of pranayama. It helps calm your mind down and raises your energy levels so you can fight off sleep later in your meditation.

Yeah, there are all kinds of breath exercises you can do in meditation. I tend to just watch my breath and see what it does rather than try to force it into a particular pattern of counting, but that’s just a preference on my part. Pranayama works very well for some people, and I’m sure it’s very good at creating those “mental fireworks” I’ve spoken of (when I tried some pranayama practices, it made me a little light-headed; there’s nothing like taking really deep breaths and flooding your brain with oxygen if you’re looking to generate cosmic feelings and far out experiences).

 

[benidict]

So whether you work at a soup kitchen or a drink a beer, you do it because that’s what you do. You just do it, and you pay attention. If, however, you start thinking thoughts like, “Oh, gee, look how holy I am,” then you’re narrating a story about yourself, and that can easily distract you from the moment or lead you astray. So you notice these stories as stories that you’re telling yourself and bring your mind back to reality. You wouldn’t think you’re so special and so holy for drinking a beer, and you have no more reason to have those thoughts about working at a soup kitchen
ME- Nicely put. What you say is true. If in fact you are practicing any form of meditation properly, then the “I” becomes less, and the “Collective We” becomes more. Its tied in with equanimity. You should feel the same no matter what. You should feel the exact same way weather someone curses you, or blesses you. If a person does happen to have these feelings of superiority, they are missing the whole point of this practice. Its designed to get us out of ourselves, and in touch with something larger. Peace

 

[Ranklyfrank]

So whether you work at a soup kitchen or a drink a beer, you do it because that’s what you do. You just do it, and you pay attention. If, however, you start thinking thoughts like, “Oh, gee, look how holy I am,” then you’re narrating a story about yourself, and that can easily distract you from the moment or lead you astray. So you notice these stories as stories that you’re telling yourself and bring your mind back to reality. You wouldn’t think you’re so special and so holy for drinking a beer, and you have no more reason to have those thoughts about working at a soup kitchen.

Yes, and that is my main gripe with religion, and maybe it is one of the stories I need to let go: faithers tell themselves a story that bifurcates the mind. In my tradition the Jesus story is understood as a myth–in its original sense of symbolic teaching–about Man as such, not solely a “person” who is historical, though he may have existed and either taught exemplified the myth.

 

[AntiTheist]

Yes, and that is my main gripe with religion, and maybe it is one of the stories I need to let go: faithers tell themselves a story that bifurcates the mind. In my tradition the Jesus story is understood as a myth–in its original sense of symbolic teaching–about Man as such, not solely a “person” who is historical, though he may have existed and either taught exemplified the myth.

Well, I don’t see any problems with having a story inspire you – fundamentally, it’s no different than being inspired by a movie or a comic book or a movie based on a comic book based loosely on a myth (Mighty Thor fans, I’m looking at you this summer movie season).

The problem only arises when you start thinking that the story is special – or, rather, that you’re special for emulating the story while these other poor saps are stuck in their miserable lives…

You’re a guy who likes the Jesus story and gets something out of it. Cool. Others are different, and that’s equally cool.

 

[Ranklyfrank]

Well, I don’t see any problems with having a story inspire you – fundamentally, it’s no different than being inspired by a movie or a comic book or a movie based on a comic book based loosely on a myth (Mighty Thor fans, I’m looking at you this summer movie season).

The problem only arises when you start thinking that the story is special – or, rather, that you’re special for emulating the story while these other poor saps are stuck in their miserable lives…

You’re a guy who likes the Jesus story and gets something out of it. Cool. Others are different, and that’s equally cool.

Yes, as you say. But while that is the significance my tradition gives to that story, it is not what my tradition consists of or relies on. That’s just a perspective on some educational material one might or might not choose to use. I feel way more kinship with the Zen Way that that story.

 

[Sufjon]

Sufjon: Yeah, there are all kinds of breath exercises you can do in meditation. I tend to just watch my breath and see what it does rather than try to force it into a particular pattern of counting, but that’s just a preference on my part. Pranayama works very well for some people, and I’m sure it’s very good at creating those “mental fireworks” I’ve spoken of (when I tried some pranayama practices, it made me a little light-headed; there’s nothing like taking really deep breaths and flooding your brain with oxygen if you’re looking to generate cosmic feelings and far out experiences).

Hi AntiTheist: I’m familiar with the technique you use. I use it when I start meditation. We classify that method as tantric. It works fine!

Your friend
Sufjon

 

[benidict]

Hi AntiTheist: I’m familiar with the technique you use. I use it when I start meditation. We classify that method as tantric. It works fine!

Your friend
Sufjon

There are other things about tantric meditative techniques that are absolutely amazing. But we will not go there… If you are married though, they are worth looking into! Sufjon, if I ever make it to where you are, we are going to have to sit and have some Chai together. I bet we would have much to discuss. I dont really think there is that much difference between the Meditation techniques of the East, or the techniques used by us who are Catholic or Jewish. they seem to have a common link. God bless you and yours.

 

[Sufjon]

There are other things about tantric meditative techniques that are absolutely amazing. But we will not go there… If you are married though, they are worth looking into! Sufjon, if I ever make it to where you are, we are going to have to sit and have some Chai together. I bet we would have much to discuss. I dont really think there is that much difference between the Meditation techniques of the East, or the techniques used by us who are Catholic or Jewish. they seem to have a common link. God bless you and yours.

Hi Benedict: Absolutely! Chai of coffee.

Your friend,
Sufjon

 

[gmcbroom]

AntiTheist,
While I applaud your motives as you sincerely want to help by teaching this techique and there are indeed some catholic clergy that practice a similar techinique it can be dangerous.

 First, by creating a space within.  How can this be dangerous one may ask?  Simple,  it can lead to  self delusion.  Thinking that one is having a spiritual experience when in fact they're just under a purely physiological condition that can be scientifically observed in real life usually as a lower heart rate and breathe control, with no response to physical stimuli.  
 Second, It can open one up to  demonic possession.  Your making a mental void within yourself and as with any void, it creates a vacuum that sucks anything into it in an effort to fill it.  Now, the christians that practice these think they have to make an inner space for God to fill them up speak.  God, doesn't need that space; but demons do, they have to be invited in and if they perfectly possess someone its hard if almost impossible to exorise them.  Exorcists have been warning of this for years.  Now there are certain prayers such as the Jesus prayer that can be beneficial if done correctly but they should only be done under the guidance of a spiritual father ie a priest who knows what to look for and can keep one from sliding into delusion or worse.

Now if one isn’t a faither, as one here termed it they may not be able to tell what’s happening.

Peace be with you.
gmcbroom

 

[Sufjon]

AntiTheist,
While I applaud your motives as you sincerely want to help by teaching this techique and there are indeed some catholic clergy that practice a similar techinique it can be dangerous.

 First, by creating a space within.  How can this be dangerous one may ask?  Simple,  it can lead to  self delusion.  Thinking that one is having a spiritual experience when in fact they're just under a purely physiological condition that can be scientifically observed in real life usually as a lower heart rate and breathe control, with no response to physical stimuli.  
 Second, It can open one up to  demonic possession.  Your making a mental void within yourself and as with any void, it creates a vacuum that sucks anything into it in an effort to fill it.  Now, the christians that practice these think they have to make an inner space for God to fill them up speak.  God, doesn't need that space; but demons do, they have to be invited in and if they perfectly possess someone its hard if almost impossible to exorise them.  Exorcists have been warning of this for years.  Now there are certain prayers such as the Jesus prayer that can be beneficial if done correctly but they should only be done under the guidance of a spiritual father ie a priest who knows what to look for and can keep one from sliding into delusion or worse.

Now if one isn’t a faither, as one here termed it they may not be able to tell what’s happening.

Peace be with you.
gmcbroom

Hi GMCBROOM: I just wanted to comment that your concern for the welfare of others reveals your inner goodness. We have been doing these practices in my faith for thousands of years, and there is indeed a good deal or formal training recommended. Many people have done a lot of physical and psychological harm to themselves doing some of these practices, and you have to be keenly aware of your own personal limits. On the other hand, the things that Antitheist has mentioned have been found to be beneficial and not very dangerous for normal well-adjusted people. But you are certainly right about going much past that, and certainly kind to worry about others.

Your friend,
Sufjon

 

[gmcbroom]

Thankyou Sufjon.

 

[AntiTheist]

AntiTheist,
While I applaud your motives as you sincerely want to help by teaching this techique and there are indeed some catholic clergy that practice a similar techinique it can be dangerous.

No, it can’t be dangerous. Sitting quietly and observing the present moment won’t hurt you a darn bit, but it may start to put a few dents in the mental map that you insist on viewing reality through.

First, by creating a space within. How can this be dangerous one may ask? Simple, it can lead to self delusion. Thinking that one is having a spiritual experience when in fact they’re just under a purely physiological condition

Well, one is always at risk of deluding oneself. This is why I specifically made it a point to say that you will experience “mental fireworks” if you practice this technique often enough and that it is a mistake to attach any importance to these experiences or think that anything magical is happening.

Second, It can open one up to demonic possession.

No, it can’t because demons aren’t real. They’re part of a story that you tell yourself about reality. The surest way to banish demons is to stop thinking about them because it’s only your thoughts that create and sustain the idea of demons.

 

[gmcbroom]

Antitheist,
Now my friend we enter into where the our religious views are different. To you and those that share your view you say that demons aren’t real. In all humility I accept that that is your opinion and those of the atheistic persuasion.

 As a Christian you'll understand I don't share that opinion.  Atleast to those of us here who are catholic its spelled out in the Apostles Creed what we have as a core belief.

We believe in One God the Father the All Mighty, maker of heaven and earth of all things seen and unseen.

For many, demons simply aren’t seen. That however doesn’t mean they don’t exist, their just beyond the scientific ability to quantifiy or catalogue them.

Peace be with you
gmcbroom

 

[GaryTaylor]

TM? Oh it can be dangerous. You can put in the same catagory with Ouji boards and Tarot Cards.

Your not centered on Christ/God. How is that good? Because it has the ability to transcend and feels good?

The exact same thing can be accomplished without placing yourself at risk through prayer.

I never gave it much thought till I listened to a Jesuit Priest lecture on exorcism and evil. Today I believe he was correct, you can accomplish the same goal in a much more positive way.

 

[Sufjon]

TM? Oh it can be dangerous. You can put in the same catagory with Ouji boards and Tarot Cards.

Your not centered on Christ/God. How is that good? Because it has the ability to transcend and feels good?

The exact same thing can be accomplished without placing yourself at risk through prayer.

I never gave it much thought till I listened to a Jesuit Priest lecture on exorcism and evil. Today I believe he was correct, you can accomplish the same goal in a much more positive way.

Hi Gary: I just wanted to point out if I may that while TM for Buddhists may not be God centered, for my faith it very much is. For us, it was a method given to us directly by God for realization of Him in ourselves and in the world around us. We do know that there are certain physical aspects that can be harmful if done without proper guidance, and some aspects can be harmful psychologically if one progresses beyond their capabilities. As for demonic possession, I respect the Christian wariness of that, however, we do not believe that a jivatman can be owned by anything but God. For instance, knowing that I am a jivatman, I know that I belong to God and knowing this, I should never act out of fear.
Your cautions for Christian may be very valid, and I respect that. For atheists I think TM can be a very good practice as well, because being an atheist doesn’t necessarily make one non-spiritual, and certainly one doesn’t even have to consider themselves to be spiritual to desire and be entitled happiness and love.

So anyway, you are not wrong, and have cited good advice for Christians. I just wanted to point out that there are other faiths or non-faiths involved. As always, it’s good to hear from you!

Your friend,
Sufjon

 

[Ranklyfrank]

TM? Oh it can be dangerous. You can put in the same catagory with Ouji boards and Tarot Cards.

Your not centered on Christ/God. How is that good? Because it has the ability to transcend and feels good?

The exact same thing can be accomplished without placing yourself at risk through prayer.

I never gave it much thought till I listened to a Jesuit Priest lecture on exorcism and evil. Today I believe he was correct, you can accomplish the same goal in a much more positive way.

My experience with TM is, if anything, that it exorcised a demon from me, if you will. I was married with two children, an infant and a toddler, both boys. I was having trouble in my life with money and with the marriage itself. None of the usual recourses were working for me, including prayers, masses, etc. One day I became extremely upset with the baby, my fault, but I started to fling him around. Perhaps you have heard of SBS or shaken baby syndrome? Well, I lucked out; I didn’t kill my child and today he is a healthy and productive person, married himself with a lovely family.

But that was a wake-up call for me. I had to do something. I was, I felt, out of options. I happened to read an article on the effects of TM on violent behavior. I got myself down to the center and shortly thereafter was doing the simple practice twice a day and just feeling calmer, without the sense of doom over my head or in my heart. I did not tell my wife what I had done; it was my secret. Three days after I started, she said to me “What’s happened with you?” When I asked her what she meant, she said "I don’t understand it–you’'re acting different, especially with the kids.What’s going on?

So I told her. Now here is a woman of pious faith. Straight devoted Roman Catholic all the way. She listened to me a bit incredulously, but from then on I felt ok with meditating when she was around. A couple of weeks in from my starting the practice, she said “I want to know more…” Long story short, though the effects of the practice were explained in terms of Indian mysticism, neither of us saw anything in the practice itself that was contrary. The explanations had to do with the nature of awareness, not with any particular belief system, and we met people of many faiths and on faith there. That was nearly 40 years ago, and she practices to this day. Despite your concerns, GT, she is hale, healthy, and very devoted.

Fro my part, I attended a lecture on cardiac health about a year after I started. I volunteered to be the subject for the EKG demo. I thought I’d just see if any of the physiologic claims made for the technique were true. Right there in front of everybody, fully awake, I went into meditation all hooked up to the equipment. After the lecture I got a berating from the speaker for messing up her demonstration. She said “I don’t know what was going on, but you heart rate and breathing were way low; I had to improvise as to what was showing on the oscilloscopes. Never do that someone again!”

Now for what it’s worth, GT, I was a champ through high school in catechism. Honors. So between that and my experience, I’m having a hard time figuring out what on earth that priest said to you an what it was based on other that falsely pious conjecture. And yes, I know about demons. I’ve been attacked by one; it physically moved me while I was resting alone on the bed. And a friend claims that one broke his ankle, he saw it wrap around his foot and snap it. I can’t swear in either case it was an actual entity, but we both saw something. They didn’t stick around for an interview or I’d tell you more.

So having practiced several forms of meditation, TM being the most innocuous of them, I can’t convince you perhaps that you you might look deeper, but as far as I’m concerned, meditation, any sort, Christian or not, has only produced beneficial results in those who practiced as instructed, whether or not they had strange experiences during their meditation. And if I’m not mistaken, weren’t some Catholic mystics attacked by demons at times? Were they not prayerful and devout Catholics praying as you recommend? So maybe that can be included in your list of dangers as well?

I might add that while there is voluminous research done on the benefits of various methods of meditation, you chose to believe a single lecturer who had, along with you, no experience in the matter, and at least on your part, no research. Do you feel that you came to an sufficiently informed decision?

 

[Sufjon]

My experience with TM is, if anything, that it exorcised a demon from me, if you will. I was married with two children, an infant and a toddler, both boys. I was having trouble in my life with money and with the marriage itself. None of the usual recourses were working for me, including prayers, masses, etc. One day I became extremely upset with the baby, my fault, but I started to fling him around. Perhaps you have heard of SBS or shaken baby syndrome? Well, I lucked out; I didn’t kill my child and today he is a healthy and productive person, married himself with a lovely family.

But that was a wake-up call for me. I had to do something. I was, I felt, out of options. I happened to read an article on the effects of TM on violent behavior. I got myself down to the center and shortly thereafter was doing the simple practice twice a day and just feeling calmer, without the sense of doom over my head or in my heart. I did not tell my wife what I had done; it was my secret. Three days after I started, she said to me “What’s happened with you?” When I asked her what she meant, she said "I don’t understand it–you’'re acting different, especially with the kids.What’s going on?

So I told her. Now here is a woman of pious faith. Straight devoted Roman Catholic all the way. She listened to me a bit incredulously, but from then on I felt ok with meditating when she was around. A couple of weeks in from my starting the practice, she said “I want to know more…” Long story short, though the effects of the practice were explained in terms of Indian mysticism, neither of us saw anything in the practice itself that was contrary. The explanations had to do with the nature of awareness, not with any particular belief system, and we met people of many faiths and on faith there. That was nearly 40 years ago, and she practices to this day. Despite your concerns, GT, she is hale, healthy, and very devoted.

Fro my part, I attended a lecture on cardiac health about a year after I started. I volunteered to be the subject for the EKG demo. I thought I’d just see if any of the physiologic claims made for the technique were true. Right there in front of everybody, fully awake, I went into meditation all hooked up to the equipment. After the lecture I got a berating from the speaker for messing up her demonstration. She said “I don’t know what was going on, but you heart rate and breathing were way low; I had to improvise as to what was showing on the oscilloscopes. Never do that someone again!”

Now for what it’s worth, GT, I was a champ through high school in catechism. Honors. So between that and my experience, I’m having a hard time figuring out what on earth that priest said to you an what it was based on other that falsely pious conjecture. And yes, I know about demons. I’ve been attacked by one; it physically moved me while I was resting alone on the bed. And a friend claims that one broke his ankle, he saw it wrap around his foot and snap it. I can’t swear in either case it was an actual entity, but we both saw something. They didn’t stick around for an interview or I’d tell you more.

So having practiced several forms of meditation, TM being the most innocuous of them, I can’t convince you perhaps that you you might look deeper, but as far as I’m concerned, meditation, any sort, Christian or not, has only produced beneficial results in those who practiced as instructed, whether or not they had strange experiences during their meditation. And if I’m not mistaken, weren’t some Catholic mystics attacked by demons at times? Were they not prayerful and devout Catholics praying as you recommend? So maybe that can be included in your list of dangers as well?

I might add that while there is voluminous research done on the benefits of various methods of meditation, you chose to believe a single lecturer who had, along with you, no experience in the matter, and at least on your part, no research. Do you feel that you came to an sufficiently informed decision?

Hi RanklyFrank: I am so glad to hear that you were helped by TM, and I do agree that it can easily work with any religious inclinations and also with a non-religious focus if that’s where you are. I do see a good deal of merit in what Gary is saying though, because like anything else, simple meditation can give you the urge to progress into more advanced practices of meditation or realization. I have personally had physical injury from some of these practices. You can also start to experience a lot of psychic side effects, like pre-cognition and a host of others. The danger in these is that they can be so intriguing that they lead you away from the initial reason for your practice. They can also give you a fat head and lead you into trouble that you’re unprepared for. I have have had a few such fat head experiences. Fortunately, I have overcome the physical damages to date, and have been able to veer away from the psychic aspects when I see them coming on. Anyway, I just think it’s a thing that should be done with care. I am very glad for the way your life turned out, whether it was through TM or whatever way you needed.

Your friend
Sufjon

 

[benidict]

TM? Oh it can be dangerous. You can put in the same catagory with Ouji boards and Tarot Cards.

Your not centered on Christ/God. How is that good? Because it has the ability to transcend and feels good?

The exact same thing can be accomplished without placing yourself at risk through prayer.

I never gave it much thought till I listened to a Jesuit Priest lecture on exorcism and evil. Today I believe he was correct, you can accomplish the same goal in a much more positive way.

Hi Gary, I Agree and disagree to some extent. I disagree that we can put Meditation on par with Ouiji boards. Tarot is a whole nother issue, I wont get into here. I will Agree however, that for someone un initiated into some of these meditative techniques without the guidance of a person more advanced can and sometimes do, put themselves at risk. Even with Christian meditation techniques and Kabbalistic techniques there is some risk depending on the method you are using. I find the Rosary to be the best safest way, especially in conjunction with Eucharistic Adoration to Achieve this state. However many times, I just want to contemplate what Christ has done for us, and I can use it for that too. It is always good, if someone is going to look into these things they consult and follow the guidance of their priest, if they are Catholic, or find an Advanced teacher such as Sufjon if of a more eastern persuasion. I for one, am glad you posted the warning here. It is something we were overlooking. Peace to you my Brother.

 

[benidict]

My experience with TM is, if anything, that it exorcised a demon from me, if you will. I was married with two children, an infant and a toddler, both boys. I was having trouble in my life with money and with the marriage itself. None of the usual recourses were working for me, including prayers, masses, etc. One day I became extremely upset with the baby, my fault, but I started to fling him around. Perhaps you have heard of SBS or shaken baby syndrome? Well, I lucked out; I didn’t kill my child and today he is a healthy and productive person, married himself with a lovely family.

But that was a wake-up call for me. I had to do something. I was, I felt, out of options. I happened to read an article on the effects of TM on violent behavior. I got myself down to the center and shortly thereafter was doing the simple practice twice a day and just feeling calmer, without the sense of doom over my head or in my heart. I did not tell my wife what I had done; it was my secret. Three days after I started, she said to me “What’s happened with you?” When I asked her what she meant, she said "I don’t understand it–you’'re acting different, especially with the kids.What’s going on?

So I told her. Now here is a woman of pious faith. Straight devoted Roman Catholic all the way. She listened to me a bit incredulously, but from then on I felt ok with meditating when she was around. A couple of weeks in from my starting the practice, she said “I want to know more…” Long story short, though the effects of the practice were explained in terms of Indian mysticism, neither of us saw anything in the practice itself that was contrary. The explanations had to do with the nature of awareness, not with any particular belief system, and we met people of many faiths and on faith there. That was nearly 40 years ago, and she practices to this day. Despite your concerns, GT, she is hale, healthy, and very devoted.

Fro my part, I attended a lecture on cardiac health about a year after I started. I volunteered to be the subject for the EKG demo. I thought I’d just see if any of the physiologic claims made for the technique were true. Right there in front of everybody, fully awake, I went into meditation all hooked up to the equipment. After the lecture I got a berating from the speaker for messing up her demonstration. She said “I don’t know what was going on, but you heart rate and breathing were way low; I had to improvise as to what was showing on the oscilloscopes. Never do that someone again!”

Now for what it’s worth, GT, I was a champ through high school in catechism. Honors. So between that and my experience, I’m having a hard time figuring out what on earth that priest said to you an what it was based on other that falsely pious conjecture. And yes, I know about demons. I’ve been attacked by one; it physically moved me while I was resting alone on the bed. And a friend claims that one broke his ankle, he saw it wrap around his foot and snap it. I can’t swear in either case it was an actual entity, but we both saw something. They didn’t stick around for an interview or I’d tell you more.

So having practiced several forms of meditation, TM being the most innocuous of them, I can’t convince you perhaps that you you might look deeper, but as far as I’m concerned, meditation, any sort, Christian or not, has only produced beneficial results in those who practiced as instructed, whether or not they had strange experiences during their meditation. And if I’m not mistaken, weren’t some Catholic mystics attacked by demons at times? Were they not prayerful and devout Catholics praying as you recommend? So maybe that can be included in your list of dangers as well?

I might add that while there is voluminous research done on the benefits of various methods of meditation, you chose to believe a single lecturer who had, along with you, no experience in the matter, and at least on your part, no research. Do you feel that you came to an sufficiently informed decision?

I thank God your child is ok, and I thank God you have been able to find a solution to what was tormenting you. Peace and prayers for you my friend.

 

[Ranklyfrank]

… I do see a good deal of merit in what Gary is saying though, because…

While I agree completely with what you are saying, wondering in the meantime if you had those injurious and other incidents practicing on your own or under guidance, I just don’t see putting meditation in the same box with Ouji boards and Tarot cards. I also don’t go for the spoutings of uneducated if sincere piety such as St. Thomas Aquinas recommended against. My sister was a trance medium for a bit until she stared to be endangered by what might be interpreted as “possession,” so I’ve a bit of experience with those. Those I do not recommend.