Zen Meditation: Theory and Practice

[benidict]

Hi RanklyFrank: I am so glad to hear that you were helped by TM, and I do agree that it can easily work with any religious inclinations and also with a non-religious focus if that’s where you are. I do see a good deal of merit in what Gary is saying though, because like anything else, simple meditation can give you the urge to progress into more advanced practices of meditation or realization. I have personally had physical injury from some of these practices. You can also start to experience a lot of psychic side effects, like pre-cognition and a host of others. The danger in these is that they can be so intriguing that they lead you away from the initial reason for your practice. They can also give you a fat head and lead you into trouble that you’re unprepared for. I have have had a few such fat head experiences. Fortunately, I have overcome the physical damages to date, and have been able to veer away from the psychic aspects when I see them coming on. Anyway, I just think it’s a thing that should be done with care. I am very glad for the way your life turned out, whether it was through TM or whatever way you needed.

Your friend
Sufjon

Hi Sufjon. Did not Buddha himself warn against looking to deeply into what you visualize during these sessions? I seem to recall reading this somewhere I could be wrong though. Peace

 

[Sufjon]

While I agree completely with what you are saying, wondering in the meantime if you had those injurious and other incidents practicing on your own or under guidance, I just don’t see putting meditation in the same box with Ouji boards and Tarot cards. I also don’t go for the spoutings of uneducated if sincere piety such as St. Thomas Aquinas recommended against. My sister was a trance medium for a bit until she stared to be endangered by what might be interpreted as “possession,” so I’ve a bit of experience with those. Those I do not recommend.

Hi RanklyFrank: I have always worked under direction, but even so, as you progress you can run into issues. That’s one of the things your teacher is there to help with. I don’t know much about ouigi boards and tarot cards, so I really can’t say. If I’m not mistaken, I think those are things for people who want to know about the future, the spirit world or past lives and the like. I’ve never sought knowledge of those things. I have met people who could look right into you and tell you about those things. I had a teacher once, and she didn’t know a thing about me on a personal level. In the course of my training she could tell you with exacting detail what was on your mind, what was happening in your life, even naming the people involved, but she always kept the context focused on how it was affecting your practice. She never claimed to have such knowledge, but it was clear she had it. I don’t think she even noticed that she was doing it. I’m sure if I had mentioned it she would have scolded me for getting distracted.

Your friend
Sufjon

 

[Ranklyfrank]

Hi Sufjon. Did not Buddha himself warn against looking to deeply into what you visualize during these sessions? I seem to recall reading this somewhere I could be wrong though. Peace

I’m not sure about Buddha, though I recall something similar, but in any case what I understand to be the general analysis is that anything yet in the subject/object mode of perception is illusion until experientially identified as not separate from Emptiness. That is usually the part neglected by those who are purely “Ascenders.” The circuit is complete as ALLness.

 

[benidict]

I’m not sure about Buddha, though I recall something similar, but in any case what I understand to be the general analysis is that anything yet in the subject/object mode of perception is illusion until experientially identified as not separate from Emptiness. That is usually the part neglected by those who are purely “Ascenders.” The circuit is complete as ALLness.

Yes, I may be mistaken here, as to where I read it, but the principle would be the same. I have studied Kabballah much more in deapth than Buddhism, although I must admit I do enjoy the teachings of Buddha. I believe it was one of the Mystic Rabbinical Sages I had read from. When I get back to the States, I can refresh my memory. I had to leave alot of books back…Peace

 

[Sufjon]

Hi Sufjon. Did not Buddha himself warn against looking to deeply into what you visualize during these sessions? I seem to recall reading this somewhere I could be wrong though. Peace

Hi Benedict: It seems I recall that he said that as well, but I’m not very well versed on the teachings of Siddhartha Gautama, so I could be wrong. I only know the close parallels between his meditative techniques and what we call Rajayoga, which is one aspect of our practices, which also include Hathayoga (postures), Bhaktiyoga (devotion), Jnanayoga (study of scriptures), Karmayoga (service to others) and for some (like Benedict ), Tantra.

Your friend,
Sufjon

 

[benidict]

Hi Benedict: It seems I recall that he said that as well, but I’m not very well versed on the teachings of Siddhartha Gautama, so I could be wrong. I only know the close parallels between his meditative techniques and what we call Rajayoga, which is one aspect of our practices, which also include Hathayoga (postures), Bhaktiyoga (devotion), Jnanayoga (study of scriptures), Karmayoga (service to others) and for some (like Benedict ), Tantra.

Your friend,
Sufjon

Jnanayoga? Study of Scriptures? I think there is another parallel here between the Rabbinic sages and the Eastern Mystics my dear friend. I may have practiced this without even knowing it. Many times when studying the Zohar,(the Jewish book of enlightenment) I would have a light go on in my head, that just hit me. I understood then more about my Christian faith on a deeper level. Also this has happened with the Rosary, and Studying the ECFS, or just reading Old Hymns. I was not even in a trance. Is this similar in your tradition? Peace

 

[Sufjon]

Jnanayoga? Study of Scriptures? I think there is another parallel here between the Rabbinic sages and the Eastern Mystics my dear friend. I may have practiced this without even knowing it. Many times when studying the Zohar,(the Jewish book of enlightenment) I would have a light go on in my head, that just hit me. I understood then more about my Christian faith on a deeper level. Also this has happened with the Rosary, and Studying the ECFS, or just reading Old Hymns. I was not even in a trance. Is this similar in your tradition? Peace

Hi Benedict: Yes, I think there are a lot of similarities. You mentioned the rosary, and I think this is very similar to what we do. I actually say the rosary from time to time. I think I mentioned on another thread that I usually focus on the sorrowful and joyful mysteries because I have a hard time visualizing the glorious ones. When doing these, I try to see the life of Jesus through the eyes of Mary, because I simply connect with her better, and because He was her child it helps create a stronger bond with Him, like you do when you look at your own son. If you have children you’ll know what I mean. This caught up with me once, when I went to see that movie The Passion of the Christ. The camera flashed for a moment at Mary and it hit me all at once like a brick that His mother had to watch all this happen. I habitually watched from that point on from the viewpoint of His mother. I was so overcome with grief that I thought I’d lose consciousness for minute. Anyway, things do hit you like a light going off in your head from time to time when doing these things. It has a powerful effect

Your friend,
Sufjon

 

[benidict]

Hi Benedict: Yes, I think there are a lot of similarities. You mentioned the rosary, and I think this is very similar to what we do. I actually say the rosary from time to time. I think I mentioned on another thread that I usually focus on the sorrowful and joyful mysteries because I have a hard time visualizing the glorious ones. When doing these, I try to see the life of Jesus through the eyes of Mary, because I simply connect with her better, and because He was her child it helps create a stronger bond with Him, like you do when you look at your own son. If you have children you’ll know what I mean. Anyway, things do hit you like a light going off in your head from time to time when doing these things.

Your friend,
Sufjon

WOW! You have a better grasp of the purpose of the Rosary, than some who pray it! God bless you my friend. I totally get where you are coming from. I may have to make a trip to India one of these days. I may yet get the Chance. And if I ever do, and if this is the Country where you live, we most certainly have to break bread together and have Chai/Coffee.

 

[Sufjon]

WOW! You have a better grasp of the purpose of the Rosary, than some who pray it! God bless you my friend. I totally get where you are coming from. I may have to make a trip to India one of these days. I may yet get the Chance. And if I ever do, and if this is the Country where you live, we most certainly have to break bread together and have Chai/Coffee.

Right now I’m living in the wilds of North Carolina . Believe it or not, we have three temples here all within a mile of each other!

Your friend
Sufjon

 

[GaryTaylor]

Now for what it’s worth, GT, I was a champ through high school in catechism. Honors. So between that and my experience, I’m having a hard time figuring out what on earth that priest said to you an what it was based on other that falsely pious conjecture. And yes, I know about demons. I’ve been attacked by one; it physically moved me while I was resting alone on the bed. And a friend claims that one broke his ankle, he saw it wrap around his foot and snap it. I can’t swear in either case it was an actual entity, but we both saw something. They didn’t stick around for an interview or I’d tell you more.

So having practiced several forms of meditation, TM being the most innocuous of them, I can’t convince you perhaps that you you might look deeper, but as far as I’m concerned, meditation, any sort, Christian or not, has only produced beneficial results in those who practiced as instructed, whether or not they had strange experiences during their meditation. And if I’m not mistaken, weren’t some Catholic mystics attacked by demons at times? Were they not prayerful and devout Catholics praying as you recommend? So maybe that can be included in your list of dangers as well?

I might add that while there is voluminous research done on the benefits of various methods of meditation, you chose to believe a single lecturer who had, along with you, no experience in the matter, and at least on your part, no research. Do you feel that you came to an sufficiently informed decision?

Well I really don’t like to throw names around, but since you seem in doubt? And of course with you experience in HS, and with demons you would know.

Maybe you would like to “hear” the lecture of Fr Malichi Martin, since he was advisor to Two Popes, author of 15 published books, and did the Major exorcism’s in the Tri-State area for two decades for the Cathoilc Church. Besides teaching at the Vatican! I would say he is somewhat of an authority?.

So yes I would say since there are Thousands of thrill seekers who quickly read through these forums that all the correct facts should be presented. And that my friend is my intention and concern, the welfare of others. I’m not trying to dismiss one practice over another. Kind of petty don’t you think?

You’ll have to post the article about the Catholic Saints who are Mystics being attacked? Now, I have read that they were made to be aware of evil and shown the demons, nonetheless they were covered by the Lords hand, and the visions they experienced were from the Lord for a specific intention.

Excorcism on the other hand, if a mistake is made by the exorcist? They could become engaged in an attack.

Sorry to hear about the childs issue, your demon attack and your friends broken ankle by a demon. What in the world were you doing? With your experience how did you wind up in this situation? You sound like the exact person I’m trying to prevent from getting hurt.

God Bless, GT

 

[gmcbroom]

Yes, Malachi Martin was the author of the book I read and he’s the one that warned against it TM and the Centering Prayer.

However even an orthodox priest also recommended against it. So for Christians atleast I wouldn’t advise it.

Now for those of a different faith I can’t say I’m for it even for them; but with a competent guru or teacher they may suffer less if at all.

For those that haven’t been hurt by this all I can say is perhaps you were just lucky.

peace be with you
gmcbroom

 

[AntiTheist]

For many, demons simply aren’t seen. That however doesn’t mean they don’t exist, their just beyond the scientific ability to quantifiy or catalogue them.

Well, no. Something that “exists” but doesn’t manifest in any way that is detectable or measurable is no different than something that doesn’t exist at all.

And for everyone else on this thread, I’m not discussing TM – assuming that that means “Transcendental Meditation,” which seems to be closer to mantrayoga from what I know.

I’m talking about just sitting down and shutting up for a few minutes.

 

[GaryTaylor]

I believe Sufjon and benidict pretty much summed it up above. There’s no doubt its an ancient practice and has a valid purpose. As far as TM and many others. Yet when you start off on these paths as a beginner without proper guidence. More than likely nothing will happen. But there will always be that one case who manages to turn something usefull into an abomination.

Listen you can google anxiety. And I’m postive you’ll find a sight with the 10-basic steps to reduce anxiety/stress. All of which will be based on deep breathing through the nose, relaxation, focus of a safe-place and a soothing sound etc. Which are off-shoots of eastern meditation. And all work, and are well and fine. Because you are following a set pattern of instuctions by some one who knows what they are doing and talking about, which yields proven positive results.

When you don’t know what your doing, just be carefull what your looking for, you just might find it. Really, thats all I’m saying. There’s not a doubt in my mind Sufjon and benidict know what they are saying above.

Nonetheless thats my only point.

God Bless, Gary

 

[rinnie]

Well, I don’t see any problems with having a story inspire you – fundamentally, it’s no different than being inspired by a movie or a comic book or a movie based on a comic book based loosely on a myth (Mighty Thor fans, I’m looking at you this summer movie season).

The problem only arises when you start thinking that the story is special – or, rather, that you’re special for emulating the story while these other poor saps are stuck in their miserable lives…

You’re a guy who likes the Jesus story and gets something out of it. Cool. Others are different, and that’s equally cool.

I think the difference is to people who have a deep faith are moved by a Holy Spirit. It is that Holy Spirit that moves a person to become a better person.

Alot of times when people need meditation it is to escape from something in this world. Maybe sickness, stress, work, etc, but its an escape.

When people have a deep faith instead of having to escape with meditation they can actually change themself with it. We just call it deep prayer, spending time with the Holy Spirit, or trying to find the inner Christ in oneself.

It took me a long time to understand this, but my Dad told me once when you are worried or stressed gp in your room, pray to God, give it up to him, and forget about it. Continue your life, do the best you can and all will be fine.

It took me a very long time to get to this point in my life. but when you believe and have faith true faith, it really removes all of your fears. And that is what stress, worry, anger, etc all come from. Fear, and it amazes me how people can reject Christ and the Devil but cannot reject fear, when fear is how the devil get to us.

But without that promise of Christ that he will take care of us, I would be looking also to every single thing out there to find peace. Because there is no peace of mind w/o Christ. It is not possible.

But when you have a deep faith, you know that no matter what happens God will take care of you. Its like that warm blanket in the coldest of weather.

But my point is People w/o Christ although they continue to find ways to deny him, are always searching for him, and don’t even realize it.

 

[AntiTheist]

I think the difference is to people who have a deep faith are moved by a Holy Spirit. It is that Holy Spirit that moves a person to become a better person.

Yes. Religions generally tend to promote ideals, like the idea that acting in a different way is “better” and that you should want to act a different way and that you should try to change yourself into something “better.”

What you’re describing is the polar opposite of what I’ve been discussing. Meditation isn’t about trying to “improve” yourself or “satisfy” yourself, which both rely on the assumption that something’s wrong with the way things are now – it’s about sitting down, shutting up, and accepting the things that exist now, exactly as they are.

Now things exactly as they are might include a desire to change them, and that’s part of the perfection of Now, but that’s entirely different. It’s one thing to recognize that you’d like to act in a different way, and it’s another thing entirely to think that you should act in such and such a way just because some religion tells you that it’s “better.” One way recognizes reality; the other sucks you into a fantasy mental thought pattern.

It took me a long time to understand this, but my Dad told me once when you are worried or stressed gp in your room, pray to God, give it up to him, and forget about it. Continue your life, do the best you can and all will be fine.

This might be good, practical advice as a technique for removing stress, but I find that ignoring stress is actually less beneficial in the long run. The better approach, for me anyway, is to concentrate on the stress and sit with it, without any of the thoughts that hold it in place. Just sit and feel it as tension in the body and watch it…it will fade on its own, but you can’t just sweep it under the rug.

But my point is People w/o Christ although they continue to find ways to deny him, are always searching for him, and don’t even realize it.

It’s vaguely insulting to suggest that people who don’t believe in your god are really looking for him. It would be as if a Hindu told you that your interest in Jesus really means that you’re looking for Shiva.

 

[rinnie]

Yes. Religions generally tend to promote ideals, like the idea that acting in a different way is “better” and that you should want to act a different way and that you should try to change yourself into something “better.”

What you’re describing is the polar opposite of what I’ve been discussing. Meditation isn’t about trying to “improve” yourself or “satisfy” yourself, which both rely on the assumption that something’s wrong with the way things are now – it’s about sitting down, shutting up, and accepting the things that exist now, exactly as they are.

Now things exactly as they are might include a desire to change them, and that’s part of the perfection of Now, but that’s entirely different. It’s one thing to recognize that you’d like to act in a different way, and it’s another thing entirely to think that you should act in such and such a way just because some religion tells you that it’s “better.” One way recognizes reality; the other sucks you into a fantasy mental thought pattern.

This might be good, practical advice as a technique for removing stress, but I find that ignoring stress is actually less beneficial in the long run. The better approach, for me anyway, is to concentrate on the stress and sit with it, without any of the thoughts that hold it in place. Just sit and feel it as tension in the body and watch it…it will fade on its own, but you can’t just sweep it under the rug.

It’s vaguely insulting to suggest that people who don’t believe in your god are really looking for him. It would be as if a Hindu told you that your interest in Jesus really means that you’re looking for Shiva.

Why is it a insult to say that when People don’t have faith in God they are always searching? Because they are. When you have grace from God that he is always watching over you, and will always be there for you, you do not have to sit and stress out about it.

And what does having faith in God to lead you wihere you need to be have to do with ignoring stress When you give up you anxiety’s to God and wait for him to open another door for you and just get trhough the moment until he does. how is that ignoring it?

Just becasue we pray and know God will find a way to help us with our problems does not mean its going to be easy, we know its not going to be easy. We don’t expect it to be easy. We just know its going to be okay.

And while we also know that things may not play out the way we would have wanted, we know that God has a plan that is bettter in the long run, and it always is.

And why do you have to meditate to accept things as they are right now. That is what we call living. You live one day at a time. And as far a meditation time its fine if you feel you need it, but if its not going to imporve your life or you are getting anything out of it, Whats the point!!

I mean if you like to sit and concentrate on your stress and then feel it leave your body I am not buying it.

You either dwell on it, or you live the best you can, do the best you can one moment at a time. believe that you are not alone and will have divine help.

 

[AntiTheist]

I’m bumping this thread one last time for the heck of it. The last time it moved to the top of the page, there was some good discussion – though it got a little cluttered with vague supernatural claims.

Let’s try to keep it focused on reality.

 

[Cecilianus]

Yes. We just do stuff. When asked about Zen, some teacher whose name I can’t recall said, “When we’re hungry, we eat. When we get dressed, we put on our clothes.”

That’s it – it’s just the stuff you always do, but you do it with pointed awareness.

So whether you work at a soup kitchen or a drink a beer, you do it because that’s what you do. You just do it, and you pay attention. If, however, you start thinking thoughts like, “Oh, gee, look how holy I am,” then you’re narrating a story about yourself, and that can easily distract you from the moment or lead you astray. So you notice these stories as stories that you’re telling yourself and bring your mind back to reality. You wouldn’t think you’re so special and so holy for drinking a beer, and you have no more reason to have those thoughts about working at a soup kitchen.

I haven’t read through all the posts yet, and my apologies if somebody’s already addressed this farther down.

A Buddhist friend on this thread made the comparison between Zen and the Jesus Prayer. In most respects this comparison is very superficial and inaccurate - the Jesus Prayer in the Athonite tradition we received it from is not supposed to be a form of meditation intended to put the mind in an altered frame of consciousness or even an altered mindset, and it is not a “mantra” to be used independently of the meaning of the words, and the prayer should not be (ab)used as such. If you’re going to do something - whether it be Zen, yoga, beer drinking, or the Jesus Prayer - make it real; don’t do a fake or altered or inauthentic version of something. (And that is a real Zen attitude towards things - live in reality, and be aware of reality, rather than your fantasy.)

But AntiTheist does elucidate an aspect of Zen here that does have a real similarity to the Jesus Prayer - both seek humility, that is, the ability to live in the real world and see and experience things as they really are. Both seek to bring your mind “back to reality”. Zen does so through a psychological technique; the Jesus Prayer does so through kenosis (self-emptying) before God.

 

[Cecilianus]

Hi Gary: I just wanted to point out if I may that while TM for Buddhists may not be God centered, for my faith it very much is. For us, it was a method given to us directly by God for realization of Him in ourselves and in the world around us. We do know that there are certain physical aspects that can be harmful if done without proper guidance, and some aspects can be harmful psychologically if one progresses beyond their capabilities. As for demonic possession, I respect the Christian wariness of that, however, we do not believe that a jivatman can be owned by anything but God. For instance, knowing that I am a jivatman, I know that I belong to God and knowing this, I should never act out of fear.
Your cautions for Christian may be very valid, and I respect that. For atheists I think TM can be a very good practice as well, because being an atheist doesn’t necessarily make one non-spiritual, and certainly one doesn’t even have to consider themselves to be spiritual to desire and be entitled happiness and love.

So anyway, you are not wrong, and have cited good advice for Christians. I just wanted to point out that there are other faiths or non-faiths involved. As always, it’s good to hear from you!

Your friend,
Sufjon

My friend, I would be very cautious in your assurance that you are a jivatman. There is no stronger, riskier, or more compelling spiritual delusion than the assurance that one is already a saint. One of the holiest Christian saints, a Desert Father who spent his life in the wilderness (I forget which one at the moment) repenting of his sins said on his deathbed “Truly I say to you, I have only begun to repent”. Even the greatest saints, ones who have already acheived theosis in this life (as the Church proclaims that we can), are by virtue of that fact all the more aware of the danger of sin and temptation. If you are in the state of grace, then God whose presence you say you are aware of (through his energies, in terms of my theology; through atman, in terms of yours) will never sin nor be touched by sin, but your individual soul (jiva, or hamsa) is maya and therefore subject to temptation. In other words, “Love God, and do what you will” - but make sure that you are always loving God and not yourself!

A number of groups in the Christian tradition (such as the Quietists, and various groups of Quakers) have taught that they have reached a state of sinlessness, and been rejected by the orthodox tradition as heretical.

Here is the Christian teaching on such meditation techniques as TM and yoga: Before the Fall of man, because we were illumined by the divine energies (“in the state of grace”, to use Roman Catholic terminology) we naturally had intercourse and communion with the angels as our natural and fitting environment and habitat. At the Fall, due to sin our natural companions became the demons, and so God protected us by closing us off from intercourse with the spiritual realm. If and when preternatural phenomena like clairvoyance are real (something which as a scientist - I was just accepted into a Ph.D. program in theoretical astrophysics - I am sceptical of but cannot deny, and which as a man I find probable due to empirical experience), they are due to the left-over effects of what we enjoyed before the ancestral sin. Practices such as yoga and TM try to break open the “seals” implanted in our souls protecting us from spiritual influences we are not prepared for - I would say these seals are what Hindus call the chakras - and as such can be dangerous.

These seals or chakras need to be opened in order for someone to accept divine grace, because the divine energies are spiritual influences no less than demonic influences and temptations. (For a Christian, if my attempt to understand both Hindu and Christian psychology in terms of each other is correct, then the chakras are opened by divine grace, organically and in accord with the measure of grace present in the soul.) It is laudable and beautiful, therefore, that Hindus will spend their lives striving to open them, since the aim of yoga (if I am not confusing things) is to release and open up the body to the divine energy. In reality this cannot be done by force, without God granting his grace to us, since finite man (jiva) cannot control or attain the Infinite God on his own strength. But Christianity was not revealed to India, and the Incarnation had not happened for thousands of years while people were trying their best to attain God through yoga - and in lieu of having Christ and the sacraments, trying to reach God with what you have is the next best thing one can do. For this reason yoga is probably the safest done authentically in its proper context - combined with prayer, as a spiritual discipline, rather than just an exercise. But as Christians we know how to pray as God has taught us, and it would not be appropriate to engage in Hindu forms of prayer.

Zen from my understanding isn’t a spiritual discipline in the same sense - it’s a perfectly safe and beneficial psychological and mental exercise. But I don’t really know enough about it to judge.

AntiTheist of course is not going to agree with me on any of this, because he is an atheist and I am a Christian.

 

[Cecilianus]

Well, no. Something that “exists” but doesn’t manifest in any way that is detectable or measurable is no different than something that doesn’t exist at all.

I’m not sure that strict empiricism is very compatible with modern physics - by this standard you would have to say that a virtual photon exchanged during an EM interaction “doesn’t exist at all”; and if it doesn’t exist then I’m hard-pressed to explain how it causes the interaction.

I suggest you read Hume’s Enquiry Concerning Human Understanding to show the consequences entailed by seriously holding this position - I found it frightening, to my common-sense no less than to my belief in science.