Zionism Anti-Catholic???

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What is the uniform Reformed position? O. Palmer Robertson’s, John Calvin, James Montgomery Boice’s or RC Sprouls?

Any Christian who believes the Jews are bound by a different covenant are as deluded as that little group of renegade Bishops who made the claim contra Catholic teaching - which as I understand it is essentially the same as most Reformed. Of course I will exclude a certain stripe of Southern Presbyterian (no offense I love the PCA and OPC), that seems to go the same route as renegade Traditionalist Catholics and the author of that article.

Mel
Reformed theology is covenantal in its outlook and from what I understand is similar to what the Catholic church has traditionally taught.

Some in the Catholic church, cardinals even, appear to think that one does not need to witness to the Jews because the Jews are under a different covenant. While that may not be official church teaching, the latest catechism from your USCCB states something along the lines of the Jews having their own active covenant.
 
Reformed theology is covenantal in its outlook and from what I understand is similar to what the Catholic church has traditionally taught.

Some in the Catholic church, cardinals even, appear to think that one does not need to witness to the Jews because the Jews are under a different covenant. While that may not be official church teaching, the latest catechism from your USCCB states something along the lines of the Jews having their own active covenant.
I have been Reformed for a number of years and retain the convenantal outlook and Augustinianism to this day. Remember Catechism can be revised. I also don’t believe it actually says this. But if it does it will be corrected someday I am sure. Catechisms are not infallible. I agree with you on this issue completely. The Jews active covenant is the Abrahamic one, fullfilled by Christ. They reject that they reject their covenant.

Mel
 
I have been Reformed for a number of years and retain the convenantal outlook and Augustinianism to this day. Remember Catechism can be revised. I also don’t believe it actually says this. But if it does it will be corrected someday I am sure. Catechisms are not infallible. I agree with you on this issue completely. The Jews active covenant is the Abrahamic one, fullfilled by Christ. They reject that they reject their covenant.

Mel
The interesting thing to me is that from an outsiders position, it seems clear that the Catholic church has always, up until recently that is, taught that the new covenant superceded the old.

It would seem that some liberal or wrongheaded bishops/cardinals are responsible for this latest twist on things.
 
I have been Reformed for a number of years and retain the convenantal outlook and Augustinianism to this day. Remember Catechism can be revised. I also don’t believe it actually says this. But if it does it will be corrected someday I am sure. Catechisms are not infallible. I agree with you on this issue completely. The Jews active covenant is the Abrahamic one, fullfilled by Christ. They reject that they reject their covenant.

Mel
Are you still in the reformed camp or are you now a Catholic?
 
Just food for thought-

Scofield and Zionism article
christianparty.net/scofield.htm
(For Catholics that Don’t Know-- Scofield is a respected Biblical scholar in fundamentalist and evangelical circles. He authored notes and biblical commentary in the Scofield Bible – a widely used study bible.)
I believe it is a movement hand in hand with evngelical Christians being swayed in politcal not biblical propaganda. I believe that Evangelcal Christianity has misinterpreted many things and are misrepresenting the bible to support certain political views. Dispensationalism is a recent thing.
I’m not anti-semetic or pro-semetic. I am for the fair and just treatment and human rights of all people.

I’m Deana from a varied protestant and evangelical protestant background. I believe God has lead me to the Catholic Church (has been leading me over the past 15 years) Currently in RCIA. 🙂
 
Are you still in the reformed camp or are you now a Catholic?
That’s an interesting question. My family currently attends an Anglo-Catholic Church. But technically I am reconciled to the Catholic church (very recently) and as close to reformed as one can be while also being catholic. Meaning an Augustinian/Thomist.

Mel
 
That’s an interesting question. My family currently attends an Anglo-Catholic Church. But technically I am reconciled to the Catholic church (very recently) and as close to reformed as one can be while also being catholic. Meaning an Augustinian/Thomist.

Mel
 
That’s an interesting question. My family currently attends an Anglo-Catholic Church. But technically I am reconciled to the Catholic church (very recently) and as close to reformed as one can be while also being catholic. Meaning an Augustinian/Thomist.

Mel
I read something by Sungenis the other day, not sure what you think of Robert, that said the next logical step for a reformed Christian to make would be to convert to the RCC.

I found that interesting.
 
I am a Jew, an Israeli and a Zionist. I am also a jurist holding a senior position in my country. In addition to academic studies
in law I’ve studied political science, the history of the Jewish people and Zionism at university. My rudimentary command of the english language allows me, in the little free time I can find, to monitor and to respond to antisemitic and anti Zionist statements on websites over the internet. I came across this forum website a few weeks ago. Using the search words Jews and Zionism I have read hundreds of posts on this website on these subjects I must admit I have been shocked, overwhelmed, sadened and at times sickened by the amount of hate against my people and my country on this website.
That the monitors of the forums allow these discussions freely indicates to me how deeply rooted the problem lies.

I truely and naively believed that things had changed. In the 1930’s a Catholic priest enthralled millions of North American listeners on the radio claiming that the Jews were undermining good Christian values, had caused the economic depression and wished to lead the United States to a “Jewish” war against Hitler.

Today in the 21st Century the rhetoric is that Jews are underming good Christian values (“the war on Christmas” for example, “ACLU”), control all the money and have all the political power (“the Jewish lobby” “neocons”) and have led the United States and Britain to a “Jewish” war in Iraq, confrontation with Iran and are also to blame for 9/11.

As the French say, “the more things change the more they remain the same”.

Jews are not “antiCatholic”. They are not taught that if you don’t believe and think what we do you will be damned forever in Hell. No Jew ever accused a Catholic of Deicide or was taught to torment a Christian because of their religion. Despite centuries of Christian persecution against the Jews, mass murders, forced coversions, expulsions and synogogue burnings, the Jewish state of Israel, in accordance with Jewish values of respect for all religions and their right to freedom of worship will continue to foster and protect the Christian community and their places of worship. The only country in the middle east where the Christian community has grown is in Israel…

“According to traditional Judaism, G-d gave Noah and his family seven commandments to observe when he saved them from the flood. These commandments, referred to as the Noahic or Noahide commandments, are inferred from Genesis Ch. 9, and are as follows: 1) to establish courts of justice; 2) not to commit blasphemy; 3) not to commit idolatry; 4) not to commit incest and adultery; 5) not to commit bloodshed; 6) not to commit robbery; and 7) not to eat flesh cut from a living animal. These commandments are fairly simple and straightforward, and most of them are recognized by most of the world as sound moral principles. Any non-Jew who follows these laws has a place in the world to come.”

As for your comments on Zionism. My objection is twofold.

Firstly, as I pointed out the ideaology you refered to is completely foreign to the ideaology of Zionism. You are welcome to believe what ever you want. My objection is to refer to some belief that has nothing to do with Zionism as Zionism and then on the basis of that belief which is foreign to Zionism explain why it is anti Catholic.

Secondly, as I pointed out previously, the thing you refered to as “Zionism” which has nothing to do with Zionism, is objectionable for the reasons I stated. Since you believe that what you called Zionism is “anti Catholic”, I can hardly be called an antiCatholic for voicing my objections to your “Zionism”. Seemingly the reverse is true.
 
Yes, Zionism is anti-Catholic (Christian).

As a matter of fact, any “ism” that isn’t Catholicism is anti-Christian.

Communism, capitalism, Protestantism, nationalism, etc.

Zionism can be either secular (anti-Christian) or religious (a religion opposed to Christian theology, therefore anti-Christian).

To even have this argument is indicative of the general level of ignorance in the world of Christian theology.

What makes Zionism anti-Catholic?

First, and foremost, it is the idea that a certain “race” of people are “chosen” - that is, belonging to some racial group provides some sort of salvation, NOT grace.

Salvation by grace alone is Christian, and to believe otherwise is anti-Christian. This may surprise a lot of die-hard “Protestants”, but the Church teaches, and has ALWAYS taught that one is saved by the Grace of God alone, and one’s “good deeds” was an outward sign of that Grace. If you believe some people that call themselves “Jews” have salvation without the Grace of God, then you have discounted Jesus’ Sacrifice, and if you discount Jesus’ Sacrifice then you don’t believe Jesus is God, and you aren’t a Christian.

THAT is why Zionism is anti-Christian/Catholic.
 
Yes, Zionism is anti-Catholic (Christian).

As a matter of fact, any “ism” that isn’t Catholicism is anti-Christian.

Communism, capitalism, Protestantism, nationalism, etc.

Zionism can be either secular (anti-Christian) or religious (a religion opposed to Christian theology, therefore anti-Christian).

To even have this argument is indicative of the general level of ignorance in the world of Christian theology.

What makes Zionism anti-Catholic?

First, and foremost, it is the idea that a certain “race” of people are “chosen” - that is, belonging to some racial group provides some sort of salvation, NOT grace.

Salvation by grace alone is Christian, and to believe otherwise is anti-Christian. This may surprise a lot of die-hard “Protestants”, but the Church teaches, and has ALWAYS taught that one is saved by the Grace of God alone, and one’s “good deeds” was an outward sign of that Grace. If you believe some people that call themselves “Jews” have salvation without the Grace of God, then you have discounted Jesus’ Sacrifice, and if you discount Jesus’ Sacrifice then you don’t believe Jesus is God, and you aren’t a Christian.

THAT is why Zionism is anti-Christian/Catholic.
From what you stated above it may be gathered:
  1. All Protestants are not Christians (Protestantism)
  2. All patriotic Americans are not Christians (patriotism,nationalism)
  3. Teaching of mathematics or science in Catholic parochial schools in anti Christian (secularism)
4)Being either pro Zionist or pro Palestinain is anti Christian (nationalism, Zionism, Judaism, Islamism)
  1. Jews are to be punished for not accepting Jesus as the Messiah and therefore should not live in their Homeland (antisemitism).
 
“However, prior to Christ’s earthly reign from Jerusalem, Zionists believe that Gentile Christians who are still living at this time will be secretly taken up into heaven. This will pave the way for the Jews to rule with Jesus for the millennial period. They call this secret taking of Christians up to heaven “The Rapture,” and base this belief on Paul’s letter to the Thessalonians”:

In.
I agree with poster who gave us this quote from the website in question.

having extensively studied the topic of Zionism in grad school, largely through my work with the papers of Rabbi Silver, I can attest that the Zionists who paved the way for aliyah (return to Palestine in the days of the British mandate and after) and the establishment of the modern state of Israel, had no such belief or intention, and indeed have no opinion at all of Christianity or Islam, except as they exist in residents of the territory Zionists regard as proper to Israel or insofar as they pose any threat to the integrity of that state.

Perhaps, since I still can’t access the article, the author is referring to fundamental Christian preachers who have adopted their own version Zionism and Messianic Judaism as some kind of warped view of Christian eschatology. My own grandmother fell into this error in her old age, due to the influence of one charismatic preacher. Insofar as modern preachers – or various “seers” or latter day “prophets” – use the establishment of the State of Israel to buttress their own belief in an immanent apocalyptic or messianic age, the author would be correct in his condemnation.
 
I read something by Sungenis the other day, not sure what you think of Robert, that said the next logical step for a reformed Christian to make would be to convert to the RCC.

I found that interesting.
It honestly pains me to say I agree to a point. I think he says some good things, but I think he is also ridiculous on other things. Completely ridiculous.

I do think Chesterton was right when he said the Catholic church is a lot bigger form the inside than it looks from the outside. But I am still sorting this stuff out. I do know the Reformed dance around the obvious when it comes to the Sacraments. They come as close to saying baptism saves but stop just short of following it logically through. Same thing with the real presence. This troubled me for years. The constant dancing around the plain reading of the scripture on these two things and giving it a really clever nuance to avoid sounding “Romish”. I had to give up that nuanced notion after a while because I think it is scripturally indefensible.

But we can have another thread on this so we don’t hijack this one. Or feel free to pm me if you like.

Mel
 
I am a Jew, an Israeli and a Zionist. I am also a jurist holding a senior position in my country. In addition to academic studies
in law I’ve studied political science, the history of the Jewish people and Zionism at university. My rudimentary command of the english language allows me, in the little free time I can find, to monitor and to respond to antisemitic and anti Zionist statements on websites over the internet. I came across this forum website a few weeks ago. Using the search words Jews and Zionism I have read hundreds of posts on this website on these subjects I must admit I have been shocked, overwhelmed, sadened and at times sickened by the amount of hate against my people and my country on this website.
That the monitors of the forums allow these discussions freely indicates to me how deeply rooted the problem lies.

I truely and naively believed that things had changed. In the 1930’s a Catholic priest enthralled millions of North American listeners on the radio claiming that the Jews were undermining good Christian values, had caused the economic depression and wished to lead the United States to a “Jewish” war against Hitler.

Today in the 21st Century the rhetoric is that Jews are underming good Christian values (“the war on Christmas” for example, “ACLU”), control all the money and have all the political power (“the Jewish lobby” “neocons”) and have led the United States and Britain to a “Jewish” war in Iraq, confrontation with Iran and are also to blame for 9/11.

As the French say, “the more things change the more they remain the same”.

Jews are not “antiCatholic”. They are not taught that if you don’t believe and think what we do you will be damned forever in Hell. No Jew ever accused a Catholic of Deicide or was taught to torment a Christian because of their religion. Despite centuries of Christian persecution against the Jews, mass murders, forced coversions, expulsions and synogogue burnings, the Jewish state of Israel, in accordance with Jewish values of respect for all religions and their right to freedom of worship will continue to foster and protect the Christian community and their places of worship. The only country in the middle east where the Christian community has grown is in Israel…

“According to traditional Judaism, G-d gave Noah and his family seven commandments to observe when he saved them from the flood. These commandments, referred to as the Noahic or Noahide commandments, are inferred from Genesis Ch. 9, and are as follows: 1) to establish courts of justice; 2) not to commit blasphemy; 3) not to commit idolatry; 4) not to commit incest and adultery; 5) not to commit bloodshed; 6) not to commit robbery; and 7) not to eat flesh cut from a living animal. These commandments are fairly simple and straightforward, and most of them are recognized by most of the world as sound moral principles. Any non-Jew who follows these laws has a place in the world to come.”

As for your comments on Zionism. My objection is twofold.

Firstly, as I pointed out the ideaology you refered to is completely foreign to the ideaology of Zionism. You are welcome to believe what ever you want. My objection is to refer to some belief that has nothing to do with Zionism as Zionism and then on the basis of that belief which is foreign to Zionism explain why it is anti Catholic.

Secondly, as I pointed out previously, the thing you refered to as “Zionism” which has nothing to do with Zionism, is objectionable for the reasons I stated. Since you believe that what you called Zionism is “anti Catholic”, I can hardly be called an antiCatholic for voicing my objections to your “Zionism”. Seemingly the reverse is true.
My heart breaks with you when I read this garbage. I am a Christian, but the son of a Jew whose family died in Auschwitz. Being a “half-Hebrew” it is clear to me that things are getting worse and anti-semitism is on the rise since 911 somehow. Which makes no sense whatsoever. Jews are still the great scapegoat.

(Edited by Moderator)

Mel
 
Yes, Zionism is anti-Catholic (Christian).

As a matter of fact, any “ism” that isn’t Catholicism is anti-Christian.

Communism, capitalism, Protestantism, nationalism, etc.

Zionism can be either secular (anti-Christian) or religious (a religion opposed to Christian theology, therefore anti-Christian).

To even have this argument is indicative of the general level of ignorance in the world of Christian theology.

What makes Zionism anti-Catholic?

First, and foremost, it is the idea that a certain “race” of people are “chosen” - that is, belonging to some racial group provides some sort of salvation, NOT grace.

Salvation by grace alone is Christian, and to believe otherwise is anti-Christian. This may surprise a lot of die-hard “Protestants”, but the Church teaches, and has ALWAYS taught that one is saved by the Grace of God alone, and one’s “good deeds” was an outward sign of that Grace. If you believe some people that call themselves “Jews” have salvation without the Grace of God, then you have discounted Jesus’ Sacrifice, and if you discount Jesus’ Sacrifice then you don’t believe Jesus is God, and you aren’t a Christian.

THAT is why Zionism is anti-Christian/Catholic.
You are missing the point. No Christian who knows his faith believes someone can be saved out side of Christ. I have buried a Jewish parent and many other relatives being very aware of this and being devastated by it. But when you read these moronic articles that appear to be amking a theological point all you have to do is keep reading to see that it not about Zionism it is about Jew hatred and finding another reason to incite people against Jews. Why single out Zionism? Especially since it is confusing Dispensationalism ans Zionism in the first place.

Make some obscure broad point that any philosophy that is not Christians is anti-Catholic proves what exactly? With all do resect, it makes no sense whatsover. You can only see the word Zionism tossed around so many times (always accompanied by condemnations of Israel and Jews in general and sympathy for Palestinians where someone trying to make into a theological points seems like a joke.

Mel
 
This is about the most ignorant post I have ever read. Was Jesus not a Jew? Was Mary not a Jew. He is fully God and fully Man. In his manhood He is mostly certainly a Jew. Your Christology is wrong. Can cannot worship Christ in part. He cannot be seperated.
That is not what you said.

You said: “I just recommend you examine your motives and remember you worship a Jew”

I do not worship a Jew. I do not worship Jesus as a Jew. You may just as well argue that because Jesus was born a man that therefore I worship a man. It is an absurd thing to claim. I worship Him because He is a lot more than a man or a Jew for that matter.
That is just absurd and unsubstantiated. Would you say the same of Jordan? So you think a democracy protecting it’s citizens from muslim terrorist who blow up their children is racist. How dare those Jews not role over and die! You obviously have not idea what apartheid even means/ 12% of Israeli’s with and equal representation in the Israeli government are Arabs. You are completely ignorant on Israel’s modern history and recent history and are just repeating muslim and anti-semitic epithets but you could not possibly back it up.
So Jesus is on the side of Hamas? Remeber the Palestinian people freely elected a terrorist organization. You morality is obviously skewed by your hatred for the Jews which is apparent since you haver no regard for Jewish life. Does it make you a Christian antisemite? No it makes you either completely ignorant, an antisemite (and thus not real Christian at all) or both. If Christ were on earth now those who you think he would side with would kill him for being a Jew.
To say it is not supported by Orthodox Jews is just about the stupidest thing I have ever heard. I see you have heard about that tiny group of New York Jews who dress up like Orthodox Jews and pretend they are even though they just popped up in the last 5 years or so. Even if they were actual Orthodox Jews, they would represent less than a fraction of 1% of Orthodox Jews who support the state of Israel more than any one on the planet! Man, do you believe everything you hear?
You need to get an education on Israel and Jews in general if you want to rage about Israel. But you have shown your motives. You people single out the Jews get all your facts wrong and expect people to believe your motives are anything other than Jew hatred?
Thank you, I have done some research, but not from propaganda sources close to the Israeli government. When Jesus was on earth He told us to love and forgive our enemies. He was talking to the Jewish people (His own people if you like) when He spoke those words. How well He understood.

The Church of the Sacred Heart in St Ives in the UK is twinned with the Catholic parish in Aboud Village on the West Bank. Since 2003, Father Maddison, along with groups from St Ives and other places in East Anglia, has made regular visits to take donations and lend support to the Aboud villagers, who are Christians and Muslims. He has seen first-hand the suffering and increasingly worsening plight of the families who live there. So please, Mel, don’t blame this on antisemitic terrorists.

This is a link to their Holy Land Project.

Yours in Christ

Paul
 
I am a Jew, an Israeli and a Zionist. I am also a jurist holding a senior position in my country. In addition to academic studies
in law I’ve studied political science, the history of the Jewish people and Zionism at university. My rudimentary command of the english language allows me, in the little free time I can find, to monitor and to respond to antisemitic and anti Zionist statements on websites over the internet. I came across this forum website a few weeks ago. Using the search words Jews and Zionism I have read hundreds of posts on this website on these subjects I must admit I have been shocked, overwhelmed, sadened and at times sickened by the amount of hate against my people and my country on this website.
That the monitors of the forums allow these discussions freely indicates to me how deeply rooted the problem lies.

I truely and naively believed that things had changed. In the 1930’s a Catholic priest enthralled millions of North American listeners on the radio claiming that the Jews were undermining good Christian values, had caused the economic depression and wished to lead the United States to a “Jewish” war against Hitler.

Today in the 21st Century the rhetoric is that Jews are underming good Christian values (“the war on Christmas” for example, “ACLU”), control all the money and have all the political power (“the Jewish lobby” “neocons”) and have led the United States and Britain to a “Jewish” war in Iraq, confrontation with Iran and are also to blame for 9/11.

As the French say, “the more things change the more they remain the same”.

Jews are not “antiCatholic”. They are not taught that if you don’t believe and think what we do you will be damned forever in Hell. No Jew ever accused a Catholic of Deicide or was taught to torment a Christian because of their religion. Despite centuries of Christian persecution against the Jews, mass murders, forced coversions, expulsions and synogogue burnings, the Jewish state of Israel, in accordance with Jewish values of respect for all religions and their right to freedom of worship will continue to foster and protect the Christian community and their places of worship. The only country in the middle east where the Christian community has grown is in Israel…

“According to traditional Judaism, G-d gave Noah and his family seven commandments to observe when he saved them from the flood. These commandments, referred to as the Noahic or Noahide commandments, are inferred from Genesis Ch. 9, and are as follows: 1) to establish courts of justice; 2) not to commit blasphemy; 3) not to commit idolatry; 4) not to commit incest and adultery; 5) not to commit bloodshed; 6) not to commit robbery; and 7) not to eat flesh cut from a living animal. These commandments are fairly simple and straightforward, and most of them are recognized by most of the world as sound moral principles. Any non-Jew who follows these laws has a place in the world to come.”

As for your comments on Zionism. My objection is twofold.

Firstly, as I pointed out the ideaology you refered to is completely foreign to the ideaology of Zionism. You are welcome to believe what ever you want. My objection is to refer to some belief that has nothing to do with Zionism as Zionism and then on the basis of that belief which is foreign to Zionism explain why it is anti Catholic.

Secondly, as I pointed out previously, the thing you refered to as “Zionism” which has nothing to do with Zionism, is objectionable for the reasons I stated. Since you believe that what you called Zionism is “anti Catholic”, I can hardly be called an antiCatholic for voicing my objections to your “Zionism”. Seemingly the reverse is true.
The Catholic Church is constantly under attack from the politically correct, who if they cannot mould it into their own liking, seek to destroy it.

Recently in the UK, the bishops of the church have opposed government initiatives to force catholic agencies to accept adoption by homosexuals. This has earned them the ire of the gay lobby and their supporters with the church being openly labelled as “homophobic” and the bishops objections as a “hate crime”.

Because the church refuses the ordination of women into the priesthood, unlike the protestant heretics, it is labelled “misogenist” and “women-haters” by feminists.

Because of its hitory in taking the word of God to all corners of the globe it is labelled “culturally insensitive” and “racist”.

You state that Jews are not “antiCatholic”. This is true. However, Zionist Jews have been at the forefront in attacking the church. The attacks on the person of Pius XII is a case in point.

I’m sorry if some of the things I have posted offend you, but I do not apologise for defending the faith.

Yours in Christ

Paul
 
This thread has been pruned and some penalties issued for lack of charity.

I apologize for not having intervened sooner but I did not expect this topic to take anywhere near this kind of turn.

Take this as notice that this thread will be receiving closer moderator scrutiny from this point on and that I expect each one of you to maintain a charity level exemplary of your respective faiths.
Michael Francis
 
You state that Jews are not “antiCatholic”. This is true. However, Zionist Jews have been at the forefront in attacking the church. The attacks on the person of Pius XII is a case in point.
Paul you are blurring the lines of word meanings. This statement would be absolutely true if you changed “Zionist Jews” to liberals Jews and liberal non Jews. If you were talking about the people at the ADL who can find anti-semtism behind anything we could agree. They are similar to other “civil rights” groups that look for offense where there is none and end up sounding like the little boy who cried wolf when real acts of anti-semitism or racism happens. They hurt the cause the claim to represent.

But you really need to stop using “Zionist” as an epithet, it is unfortunate the moderator has not picked up on the way it is being used. 20 years ago the word would have been “dirty” now it is just a more sophisticated slur, a clever euphemism. But make no mistakes it is a euphemism. Do you call Americans who live West of the Mississippi derogatory nicknames that refer to white people as stealing Indian lands or Mexican lands? Do you think we should give Mexico back? Do you think “Damn Yankee” is an appropriate or Christian name to call someone because of where they happen to be from? You really need to show some respect. I am far from PC but your euphemisms are offensive, especially because you have not taken the time to be accurate or even close to it. Perhaps if your family was nearly wiped out of existence you would have a little more charity. My father’s was. This is not academic or about political correctness to me. I know what Anti-semtism is. I know what it looks like and I know the buzz words. It is amazing the things you hear when people assume you don’t have Jewish blood or you don’t look Jewish, and can say what they want in safe company. It is amazing how these conversations tend to start with words like “Zionist” and then goes down the path to more honest language. Does any of this sound familiar? It does to me.
I’m sorry if some of the things I have posted offend you, but I do not apologise for defending the faith.
You have raised completely unrelated issues and tied them to this one. You imply guilt by association (where there is one, btw) and wrapped it in the guise of “defending the faith”. Attacking Jews and trying to equate not being anti-Israel with being pro-gay and feminist is indefensible.

I am trying to be charitable, but I also don’t think the level of outrage is understood. Rebuke is often the greatest charity.

Mel
 
I am not Jewish, so perhaps it is a bit perilous for me to talk about it. No one can truly understand what it is to be a Jew unless he is one, I suspect.

I agree with a previous poster who said that the term “Zionism” was once not considered a toxic term in the way it is used today by those who hate Jews and/or Israel.

The Israel issue is complicated by the fact that Jews are simultaneously an ethnic group, a cultural group and a religious group, in a way that no others on earth are. In addition, all three elements are identified with occupation of a particular geographic location, in a way that is more intense than is the case with most ethnic, cultural or religious groups, but which is certainly shared with many ethnic and cultural groups.

So, “Zionism” is, on one level, nothing but the desire of an ethnic group to occupy their historic homeland. Lots of people have that. Germans, French, Italians. Almost everyone shares this to some degree. When one adds that Jews have often been unprotected in the states where others dominate, it has a particular importance to them to have a land in which they (hopefully) may be “safe”, at least from their own government.

As a religion, of course Judaism is “anti-Catholic” in a way; in the same way that Anglicanism is or Mormonism is or Methodism is. Virtually all religions affirm their own tenets and, in so doing, reject, at least tacitly, the tenets of another. Nothing unusual or ominous in that. Some Jews have a particular dislike of Catholicism, blaming the Church for things that happened to their people in Europe. That can be said to be “anti-Catholic” in a deeper sense. But that kind of thing isn’t peculiar to Jews. Some Irish still hate Brits for the same reason. In my own experience, for whatever it’s worth, the Jews I know don’t seem to have any particular rancor toward Catholicism or Gentiles, though there is always a kind of sense that I am regarded as “the other”, and that there is a gap between us that can never be completely bridged. But that’s okay, even with friends. Some things just are what they are, and as long as no one harms or intends harm, my Jewish friends can regard me as “the other”, as “the Goy” in the particular way some Jews have of feeling that way.

I am not one of those people who regards the State of Israel as some kind of Apocalyptic mandate. It’s just a nation state that is particularly dear to its inhabitants and to Jews elsewhere. But it’s a free and democratic nation of civilized and good people with a historic claim to be there, and who turned it from a ragged desert, long ago ravaged and depopulated by Turkish misrule, into a fruitful and pleasant land. Not many people have a better claim to the land they inhabit than they do. Not many people have a stronger right to defend themselves than they do.
 
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