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arabic99
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so what is the “substance of God”?
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IgnatianPhilo
Guest
Divinity. The phrase indicates essential unity. Not in the sense I am of the same substance as my sister. We both have flesh. Rather in the sense that they share the exact same substance. That is I do not share my sisters flesh, I do not share her substance and she does not share mine.
Ask any bahai and they will tell you it is impossible that Christ could have had the exact same divinity as God the father.
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arabic99
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Ask any Baha’i and they will tell you that the Divinity of Jesus is equal to the Divinity of the Father, “guaranteed”.
In fact in the baha’i Writings, Baha’u’llah himself proclaims “I am God”, so it’s not beyond them to equate Jesus with God, because they see Baha’u’llah and Jesus as the same Person, “different name”
As i say, do fuirther research
In fact in the baha’i Writings, Baha’u’llah himself proclaims “I am God”, so it’s not beyond them to equate Jesus with God, because they see Baha’u’llah and Jesus as the same Person, “different name”
As i say, do fuirther research
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arabic99
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i just looked up the quote for you, here it is:
“When I contemplate, O my God, the relationship that bindeth me to Thee, I am moved to proclaim to all created things ‘verily I am God!’; and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!”
“When I contemplate, O my God, the relationship that bindeth me to Thee, I am moved to proclaim to all created things ‘verily I am God!’; and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!”
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IgnatianPhilo
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Bahai terminolgy can be very misleading as I think the intent is sometimes sadly enough. Mirza Al hussain was not on par with God, Bahais stress this. He may be “god” but only in the sense he bears the perfect mirror reflection of God. Nothing more. The same with all teh manifestations.
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arabic99
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So in terms of using an analogy then, if God was the sun, what would you say Jesus was then, according to Trinitarian theology, using such an analogy?
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patrick457
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Now I really know Zoroastrianism is not-so-well known, seeing as we no longer talk about it. 
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BListon
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No, because everyone is too busy arguing about things that are off topic. We are NOT talking about Bahai, we are NOT talking about Mohammed, we are NOT talking about Baha u llah, and we are NOT talking about Islam. We are supposed to be talking about ZOROASTRIANISM!!! Grrr…:takethat:Now I really know Zoroastrianism is not-so-well known, seeing as we no longer talk about it.
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IgnatianPhilo
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If Mirza Al hussain would say Christ was a mirror of God’s reflection. I would say Christ is the original person being depicted.
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arabic99
Guest
So you are saying that Christ IS the actual sun itself then?
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arabic99
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Sorry gentlemen
Feel free to bring it back on topic if you wish. Maybe you might wish to assign falsehood on Zoroaster also?
Personally, I believe all religions are the exact OPPOSITE of false. Humans inadvertantly, (and sometimes intentionally) create falsities and its a tragic shame that some people choose to focus on interpretive conundrums to assign falsehood on religions whose outputs to society and the world at large can only be entitled “righteous, constructive, positive and Godly”…calling religions that contribute to society so positively, “false”, in my opinion, is a lesser form or attitudinal condition behind violence. It contributes a drop towards the ocean of mistrust, hatred and animosity that exists between the peoples of the world.
I will kindly, and humbly try to extinguish the fire of animosity wherever I may see it.
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IgnatianPhilo
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I’m saying Christ is utterly God.
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arabic99
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So how is God EVER capable of being confined by the limitations of hunger…surely God would never be hungry…
Mark 11:12 “The next day as they were leaving Bethany, Jesus was hungry.”
Someone who is “utterly” God is a master and overpowerer of creation, not the opposite.
Can you explain how this aligns with your “utterly God” statement?
Mark 11:12 “The next day as they were leaving Bethany, Jesus was hungry.”
Someone who is “utterly” God is a master and overpowerer of creation, not the opposite.
Can you explain how this aligns with your “utterly God” statement?
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LittleFlower378
Guest
I am reading a good book on Catholic history called THe Catholic Church Throughout the Ages by Vidmar and in the book he talks about one of the first heresies called Arianism. Arias believed that Christ was a created man, a greater man than all the others, but just a man. When Arianism was hammered out at the council of Nicea(which confirmed that Jesus is God) Arius and his group went off to Arabia to set up camp there. Vidmar writes that not surprisingly that is where Islam was set up, which holds that Jesus is not God.
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IgnatianPhilo
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Hypostatic union. Read the chalcedonian definition.
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arabic99
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Ok, so now we are getting interpretive, and outside the explicit realms of the Bible.
Ignatian, can you tell me how you understand “hypostatic union” and how that explains why Jesus would say things like:
“I am hungry”
“MY Father has sent me…”
“My Father is greater than I…”
How does hypostatic union comply with your “utterly God” statement…
When you say “utterly God” it means every aspect of His being, including His physical body before His resurrection was God. So can you explain how it correlates with His claims that He was “sent” by the Father
When I “send” something somehwere, even if it is “of my substance” (lets for the sake of argument say that I send someone my brain) it is still NOT me (the whole me) that I am “sending”
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MartinJordan
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IgnatianPhilo
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Sigh. He is hungry because his humanity is hungry. Christiantiy maintains that God put on our nature without corrupting or conceding his divinity in anyway. Nor are we modalists. Jesus is not the father. But we are getting far off the reservation. I have shown there is a signifficant problem historically for Bahai.
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arabic99
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Thankyou MJ, this has given me a quote from the Catechism (para 246)
"Everything that belongs to the Father, except being Father, the Son has also eternally from the Father, from whom he is eternally born . . "
So how is that “utterly God”???
Guys, however you may wish to play around with the words etc etc, the reality is that your understanding of why the Prophet Muhammad revealed His version of the relationship between Jesus and God, is flawed and misunderstood in itself. To be honest, after years of conversing with catholic friends here, near my home, I can say that there are few (if any) Catholics that really understand their own Trinity doctrine, let alone the Islamic version.
MAYBE, you are both talking about the same thing…go figure!
Either way, there is no grounds here for publicly announcing and proclaiming that there is a “contradiction” like Ignatian has, its just reflective of pride, arrogance and self-glorification to profess that there is a “contradiction” when true understanding is not there…
I’m happy to be proven wrong, but thats the way I see it
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arabic99
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God “putting on our nature” is implicative of more than one nature endowed on Christ
Islam and Baha’i theology “elucidates” this reality and conforms with it. There is no contradiction.
I keep repeating myself. Baha’u’llah’s quote I posted before talks about this perfectly. He talks about the “God nature” he is endowed with and the “human nature” he has “put on” (as you say) which is “coarser than clay…”
This quote is the “elucidation” of Islamic theology on this subject…and conforms very well with trinitarian doctrine
I repeat, there is no contradiction
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