Zygotes and heaven?

[phantasm]

If you think these numbers are “countable”, then start counting.

Tell me when you’re done.

Do you folks ever concede defeat?

Oh brother, I just went over all of this. There is a finite number of people who have ever lived, most are destined for hell. Only a few make it to heaven, and of those, even fewer are saints.

The very smallest number of all groups of people,would in fact be the Saints.

If heaven were real, you certainly would be able to count these Saints. The Biblical authors were wrong when they wrote that verse.

Now if only they could figure out how many angels could fit on the head of a pin?

 

[jmcrae]

Do you folks ever concede defeat?

Oh brother, I just went over all of this. There is a finite number of people who have ever lived, most are destined for hell. Only a few make it to heaven, and of those, even fewer are saints.

And again, you are still misunderstanding. St. John saw in his vision an “uncountable” number - not an “infinite” number. That is to say, he was not able to estimate the number of Saints in Heaven, because of the great crowd of them.

Now if only they could figure out how many angels could fit on the head of a pin?

That one is easy - since Angels are non-corporeal, therefore, as many Angels as happen to want to, can dance on the head of a pin. (I don’t happen to think that they consider this a priority, though.)

 

[phantasm]

It occurs to me that from God’s point of view, even one human being in Hell would be “too many.” But it is our own choice, whether to go to Heaven or to Hell. God doesn’t force people to be atheists, nor to do evil things. They choose these things freely.

Correct. This is all based upon the system of salvation, as created by the Lord God.

God creates the game, sets the rules and we play. Win or Lose, it’s Gods game, God’s rules.

The only difference, is that God already knows the outcome.

I’ve had this discussion countless times with devout Christians. It seems that there is a religious block that prevents the religious from understanding what omniscience actually means and that God created the system of salvation, while having the foreknowledge that most would choose hell. But he did it anyway.

Pity that none of you can grasp this simple reality of your faith and I’d get further if I were talking to a wall.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

Correct. This is all based upon the system of salvation, as created by the Lord God.

God creates the game, sets the rules and we play. Win or Lose, it’s Gods game, God’s rules.

The only difference, is that God already knows the outcome.

I’ve had this discussion countless times with devout Christians. It seems that there is a religious block that prevents the religious from understanding what omniscience actually means and that God created the system of salvation, while having the foreknowledge that most would choose hell. But he did it anyway.

Pity that none of you can grasp this simple reality of your faith and I’d get further if I were talking to a wall.

It’s hard to believe you were a Catholic. It sounds more like you were a Baptist. All that Hellfire and damnation!! Don’t you believe in the forgiveness of sin? Because yes, we are all sinners, but we can be redeemed through our savior Jesus Christ. You can choose to follow Christ or to reject him, that is your free own will.

 

[vz71]

I disagree, it is the sole point. The creator of the universe has created finite life, only to have the majority of that life upon it’s bodily death, live for eternity in hell.

How exactly do we come by this knowledge of who is and is not in Hell?

 

[phantasm]

You can choose to follow Christ or to reject him, that is your free own will.

God knew my choice before I was even born, that is omniscience. This is what many Christians have trouble understanding.

Only an evil God would create a life, knowing ahead of time that said life, because of their choices, will spend all of eternity in an apparently unpleasant and nasty place called hell.

 

[phantasm]

How exactly do we come by this knowledge of who is and is not in Hell?

Does anyone read their Bibles around here, or is it just the Atheists?

**Matthew 7:13
**
"Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the road broad that leads to destruction, and those who enter through it are many.
How narrow the gate and constricted the road that leads to life. And those who find it are few.

Luke 13:23

Someone asked him, “Lord, will only a few people be saved?” He answered them,
"Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I tell you, will attempt to enter but will not be strong enough.

 

[jmcrae]

God knew my choice before I was even born, that is omniscience. This is what many Christians have trouble understanding.

You still make the choice, yourself. God doesn’t force you into it.

Only an evil God would create a life, knowing ahead of time that said life, because of their choices, will spend all of eternity in an apparently unpleasant and nasty place called hell.

And if God chooses not to create you, how does He see you doing anything at all? Since you don’t even exist.

It is only “after” (so to speak) God has created you, that He can see you making your choices. By then, you already exist. It’s too late to not create you. By then, the choice has already been made, and you are already at the Judgment Day, being sent either to Heaven or to Hell, depending on what the choice was, that you made.

 

[Leopard]

Does anyone read their Bibles around here, or is it just the Atheists?

**Matthew 7:13
**
"Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the road broad that leads to destruction, and those who enter through it are many.
How narrow the gate and constricted the road that leads to life. And those who find it are few.

Luke 13:23

Someone asked him, “Lord, will only a few people be saved?” He answered them,
"Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I tell you, will attempt to enter but will not be strong enough.

The purpose of those statements was to spur the listeners on to diligence and perseverance in following God, not to give census figures for Heaven or Hell.

 

[vz71]

Does anyone read their Bibles around here, or is it just the Atheists?

Matthew 7:13

"Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the road broad that leads to destruction, and those who enter through it are many.
How narrow the gate and constricted the road that leads to life. And those who find it are few.

Luke 13:23

Someone asked him, “Lord, will only a few people be saved?” He answered them,
"Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I tell you, will attempt to enter but will not be strong enough.

Please explain how it is that these verses are telling you “the majority of that life upon it’s bodily death, live for eternity in hell.”

I am having difficulty seeing this.
First off, Luke is not telling us anything in this verse of a number of people entering hell.
Second, Mathew tells of a path to destruction, and a path to life. But I am not so certain I should accept your assumption that they are speaking of final destinations there. There were many Saints on this path to destruction before the eventually found the path to life. Likewise there are many on the path to life that will eventually fall into destruction.

 

[vz71]

The purpose of those statements was to spur the listeners on to diligence and perseverance in following God, not to give census figures for Heaven or Hell.

Agreed here as well.

If one does not accept the assumptions this professed Atheist proposes, all of the arguments seem to fall flat.

I am sure that if I wore the same blinders, my view would be similar. But I for one refuse the assumptions made by professed atheists concerning what my bible says.

 

[phantasm]

You still make the choice, yourself. God doesn’t force you into it.

And if God chooses not to create you, how does He see you doing anything at all? Since you don’t even exist.

It is only “after” (so to speak) God has created you, that He can see you making your choices. By then, you already exist. It’s too late to not create you. By then, the choice has already been made, and you are already at the Judgment Day, being sent either to Heaven or to Hell, depending on what the choice was, that you made.

sigh

This is going in circles. Learn what omniscient means, try the dictionary, then come back when you have a firm grip on what it means to say that God is omniscient and the conflict with benevolence.

Do you think I’m the first person in history to bring this up?

 

[jmcrae]

sigh

This is going in circles. Learn what omniscient means, try the dictionary, then come back when you have a firm grip on what it means to say that God is omniscient and the conflict with benevolence.

“Omniscience” means that He knows all that there is to be known. Things that never happen are not things to be known. God does not speculate on “might be.”

He knows what there is to be known. He does not know things that never happen. If God doesn’t create someone, it’s not because “He knew” something about their life that “would have” happened. God doesn’t do “would have.” God deals only with reality as it exists. Not with imagination, or speculation. Unrealities are not part of God’s domain. God cannot “see” or “know” things that do not actually exist. (This is why it is physically impossible to lie to God.)

 

[vz71]

Learn what omniscient means, try the dictionary, then come back when you have a firm grip on what it means to say that God is omniscient and the conflict with benevolence.

Do you think I’m the first person in history to bring this up?

Sadly, no.
There are many that fall into that argumentive trap. And have their faith torn for it.

God gave each one of us the gift of free choice. If you choose to, you can spend an eternity away from God.
Would you rather God bound and gagged those that would choose hell and forced himself upon them?

 

[Abbadon]

How exactly do we come by this knowledge of who is and is not in Hell?

Very simple old bean. You make it up. Because an imaginary number is all that is needed for imaginary consequences.

 

[phantasm]

The purpose of those statements was to spur the listeners on to diligence and perseverance in following God, not to give census figures for Heaven or Hell.

What are you saying, Jesus enjoyed embellishment?

Alas, even the most straightforward of scripture, will be spun to represent that with which is wished to be believed.

 

[Abbadon]

It is only “after” (so to speak) God has created you, that He can see you making your choices. By then, you already exist. It’s too late to not create you. By then, the choice has already been made, and you are already at the Judgment Day, being sent either to Heaven or to Hell, depending on what the choice was, that you made.

With all the overpowered attributes given to god. If he can’t predict his creation before he creates it that isn’t very good, engineers and scientists do it pretty well god should be able to predict perfectly.

 

[Abbadon]

Do you folks ever concede defeat?

I thought i should change the message. Yes some religious people do concede realize we are sheep and have a desire to be a goat.

 

[phantasm]

“Omniscience” means that He knows all that there is to be known. Things that never happen are not things to be known. God does not speculate on “might be.”

He knows what there is to be known.

Wrong.

You have an elementary understanding of omniscience and I really am tired of this circular debate. You refuse to learn, that is all.

Most Christians have no understanding of the complexity of omniscience. I must learn to accept that I’m not going to change anyones unsophisticated understanding and leave it at that.

I will try one last effort…

Omniscience… A God would know precisely how a persons life would turn out, in every single conceivable circumstance, every mother they could be born to, every country they could be born in, every time they could be born in, as afterall, Christians are in fact talking about souls, which are not physical things, and can be woven into any physical person that God so chooses.

Do you understand? I didn’t think so, now lets move on and accept that your stuck in a rut of not understanding omniscience.

 

[Leopard]

What are you saying, Jesus enjoyed embellishment?..

I am saying that Jesus is a good teacher who uses language that will effectively get His point across to His listeners.