‘It Is Not a Closet. It Is a Cage.’ Gay Catholic Priests Speak Out

[_Abyssinia]

Check this out from Fr Matthew Schneider:

Open Letter To Priests And Bishops: Resign If You Need To

This is an open letter asking those clerics who have been sexaully active, abused others, or covered up to resign their posts. Some minor offenders might need to work through some problems but the big offenders need to leave the priesthood,.

www.patheos.com

.

 

[MikeInVA]

Have you ever heard about the Eastern Orthodox Church and the fact that they have a married clergy? Married clergy do just fine in the Russian Federation where their numbers have been increasing dramatically in recent years.

My brother is Russian Orthodox. His parish priest covers down on a community of about 40 people, including children. My parish is fairly well staffed for a Roman Catholic parish - we have 3 priests to cover down on a parish of 3000 families.

 

[AlNg]

My brother is Russian Orthodox. His parish priest covers down on a community of about 40 people, including children. My parish is fairly well staffed for a Roman Catholic parish - we have 3 priests to cover down on a parish of 3000 families.

This is a good point. Catholic Churches which have the celibacy requirement are in trouble, with dioceses declaring bankruptcy and churches closing in Europe and the US. So far, 18 U.S. Catholic dioceses and religious orders have filed for bankruptcy protection: 15 dioceses and 3 religious orders, the Oregon Province of the Jesuits and the Congregation of the Christian Brothers, and most recently the Crosier Fathers and Brothers. These Churches have the celibacy requirement.
OTOH, the Russian Orthodox Church which allows married priests is growing by leaps and bounds with more priests than ever today and more seminarians and more churches being built all the time even now. In 1990, there were 6000 Russian Orthodox Churches in the Russian Federation. In 2011, there were 30,000 Russian Orthodox churches. Today there are 36,000 churches. And there are many more that are being built or being planned to be built.

 

[Gabika50]

The Personal Chair of Peter ordinariate would nor concur with your assessment. It is an ordinariate whereby married Anglicans become Catholic priests- an exception to the celibacy rule, and a clear statement that the two are not in opposition…

Ordinariate of the Chair of Saint Peter | Houston, Texas

 

[vz71]

This is a clear statement of rare exceptions.
Not a statement of a rule concerning what is best.

 

[Gabika50]

And, the exception confirms the rule.

 

[MikeInVA]

This is a good point.

But my point was not the one you took. I did not say that celibacy is leading to the decline in vocations, I said that Russian Orthodox churches are generally smaller than their Roman counterparts and are therefore more able to accommodate pastors who have their own family to look after in addition to the parish.

As far as celibacy leading to a decline in vocations I think that faithful, traditional dioceses and orders are doing much better than their less traditional counterparts. For example, the Dominican Province of St. Joseph (Eastern U.S.) is practically bursting at the seams with new vocations - and I’m pretty sure they require celibacy.

 

[ralfyman]

I am guessing financial problems including supporting families, reassignments, etc. If there is anything in other religious groups that can deal with these effectively, let us know.

 

[AlNg]

I said that Russian Orthodox churches are generally smaller than their Roman counterparts

My brother is Russian Orthodox. His parish priest covers down on a community of about 40 people, including children. My parish is fairly well staffed for a Roman Catholic parish - we have 3 priests to cover down on a parish of 3000 families.

Does this not support my point that there are an increasing abundance of married Russian Orthodox priests, while there is a scarcity of celibate Roman Catholic priests? Per your example:
Russian Orthodox parish - 1 priest per 40 members
Roman Catholic parish - 1 priest per 1000 families.
If there were a scarcity of married Russian Orthodox priests, would you not expect 1 priest to be serving a much greater number of people, than just 40? If there were an overabundance of celibate Roman Catholic priests, would there not be 1 priest per a smaller number of families than what we have now?Please see: THE RUSSIAN CHURCH INCREASED BY 5,000 CHURCHES AND 10,000 CLERICS OVER THE LAST SIX YEARS

The Russian Church increased by 5,000 churches and 10,000 clerics over the last six years

Patriarch Kirill of Moscow and All Russia believes that increasing number of Orthodox churches in Russia is testimony that the mission of the Russian Orthodox Church is something the people want.

orthochristian.com

Also:
Catholic Church Has Lost More Members Than Any Other Religion in the U.S.
Catholic Church Has Lost More Members Than Any Other Religion in the U.S. - World Religion News

Also from Catholic League president Bill Donohue:
CATHOLIC CHURCH ATTENDANCE DROPS

CATHOLIC CHURCH ATTENDANCE DROPS – Catholic League

Further:
An estimated 515 Roman Catholic churches in Germany have closed their doors over the past ten years, and Catholic clergy estimate that two-thirds of their 1,600 churches in the Netherlands will be closed by 2020.

 

[VanitasVanitatum]

Perhaps if clergy shared in our realities they would be in a better position to understand us

Is there any indication that they don’t?

 

[MikeInVA]

Does this not support my point that there are an increasing abundance of married Russian Orthodox priests, while there is a scarcity of celibate Roman Catholic priests?

Not at all. Maybe the focus on traditional liturgy is drawing vocations rather than the ability to be a married priest. Near as I can tell, the orthodox churches have always allowed married priests but the growth you cite is only in the last 6 years.

 

[OraLabora]

Is there any indication that they don’t?

I’ll preface this by saying the best marital advice I ever received was from a celibate Benedictine monk. However I would never ask him for anything but the most general advice on what’s allowed and what isn’t, on how to have conjugal relations.

That said, I don’t by any means want to suggest that priests can’t counsel the laity properly because they don’t live a life similar to ours. I mean to say that they would be able to even better counsel us if they did.

My wife as mentioned is a doctor and she used to have a large obstetrics practice. When she gave birth to our first child, I remember clearly one of the first things she said (after telling me to go to McDonald’s to buy her a Big Mac… she was famished!), was “boy it sure feels different from this end of the bed”. I’m pretty sure she had much more empathy for the pain experienced in labour after that.

I can teach you, in words, exactly how to fly an airplane and you could probably easily pass a written exam afterwards. But until you’ve had your butt pounded or bumped your head against the ceiling in turbulence (even with your seat belt fastened!), or tried to manage multiple tasks happening all at once in a busy landing circuit, you’ll realize how little you understand about flying.

There was an interesting article in La Presse this morning (Montreal’s French daily), by a historian who went back to his old home town in the Saguenay region and talked to the many old folks in the poorest section of town about their past. They all, to a person, recalled a certain curate who, in the '50s, had an expensive large rectory built and traded in his Lincoln for a brand-new one every two years, while the poor villagers tried to scrape together some small change for the Church when he came for his parish visits. And no doubt, based on the history of Quebec, he was also requiring (not suggesting… absolution would be withheld) couples to have large families. Dirt-poor families of 15 were not unheard of.

Happily those days have passed, but unfortunately it decimated the Church here. That’s another story.

My point is… there’s nothing like experience to make one a Subject Matter Expert.

 

[KMC]

The priesthood should be something young men seek as a way to serve, not as a place to hide from their conflicted sexuality.

A priest is supposed to be celibate…married to the Church. A priest that calls the priesthood a “cage” needs to seriously think about WHY he is a priest to begin with.

 

[poche]

What I would like to know is what those priests who participated in the survey and the author hope to accomplish? It appears to me that their purpose is to undermine and contradict the Catholic teaching on chastity.

 

[OraLabora]

The priesthood should be something young men seek as a way to serve, not as a place to hide from their conflicted sexuality.

It’s pretty tough to attract men with a naturally-ordered sexuality to a celibate institution where they will have to sublimate their sexuality.

It makes no sense whatsoever. Those that do, have my deepest respect for being able to swim against nature, they are stronger men than I.

Unless the Church addresses that issue, she will continue to be a magnet for men with disordered sexualities. I’d be very curious to see abuse statistics for priests vs. permanent deacons.

In a twisted way, the LGBQT movement may in fact be doing the Church a favour by making it socially acceptable to be gay, at least they no longer have to hide it and are perhaps less likely to seek the priesthood to hide it. Pedophiles, however, are another matter.

 

[AlNg]

Not at all.

Here is my question:
Which Church has more priests available to serve the same number of people:
Church A: one priest per 2000 people.
Church B: 50 priests per 2000 people.
I am using your statistics here in post number approximately 42. Here I assume a family to consist of, on average, a number greater than or equal to two people.
It appears from your statistics, that Church B has a much greater number of priests to serve 2000 people than does Church A.
But, referring to your post (approx #42)
Church A is the Catholic Church which has for the most part a celibate clergy.
Church B is the Russian Orthodox Church which allows a married clergy.

 

[islanderie]

With regard to the element of the discussion re married priests . A local situarion and personality .
I tried to add the link to no avail
And the text was too long.

If you google Val Rogers Westport and ‘Forty years on, only 4 of our 10 still serve as priests’…

 

[goout]

1 The crisis in our clerical hierarchy is a stew, not one factor.
2 80% of abuse is male on male
3 Priests and bishops go to all male seminaries and cannot marry.
4 Priests and bishops carry the weight of authority, so someone wanting to abuse has the weight of authority.
5 This makes the priesthood a natural haven for same sex attracted men who might be inclined to abuse others
6 Married priesthood is a legitimate option to consider, and probably the best option to break this culture up, and the Church hierarchy is foolish to not consider it.

If you really have concern for abuse victims, it must be considered.

 

[goout]

OraLabora:

Nonsense.

Of course.
You are an exception.
Therefore we all are.

Look, I only know what I have witnessed first hand. Divided vocations are not a good idea.

I disagree. The idea that a priest cannot also be a father is a red herring. More priests make for smaller work loads, so the percentages work.

If we insist on traditional disciplines for their own sake, we will get what we have: a clerical culture that is very sick. In the past 10 years, we have begun to have healthy priests where I live, but look around, and look especially at those who have authority in the Church. Our clerical culture is sick.

Doing the same thing because that’s the way we do it is not an option, especially when people are getting hurt.

 

[stpurl]

But it’s not that celibacy is making the clerical culture sick.

I agree that having married priests can work in certain times and places, but a lot fewer than unmarried priests ‘work’. Back when priests lived in small rural villages yes, a married priest could ‘work’. And of course, an ‘unmarried priest’ in such a setting also ‘worked’. Part of the reason was that both scenarios were familiar and had indeed always been familiar. There were always married priests, there were always unmarried priests.

Fast forward to today. For the majority of Latin Rite Catholics, there have only been ‘unmarried priests’ culturally over more than 1000 years. Not only that, the entire culture has changed in the Western world from rural subsistence living into an incredible diversity in which areas of urban/suburban/large cities mix with huge areas of rural, small town combined, and instead of a homogenous blend of one or perhaps one dominant and a fewer smaller but complementary cultures, we have in places mixes of a hundred different ethnic cultures and countless ‘variations’.

A married priest would not only have to handle this kind of choppy society himself, his wife and kids would too. . .and depending on how his wife was raised, her needs and expectations would play a part. . . and then we have the kids, possibly a huge family of 8 to 10, all being encouraged as society has us now to be as diverse as possible. . .

So you’d have Father X whose 3000 member urban flock consisting of about 50% of Father X’s cultural group plus 10% of another group which is similar, 9% of another group which is in the same ethnic group but more assimilated to the US, 5% of a group from another continent, 4% of a group from that continent which has historically been on the outs with the other group, etc. . .
whose population ranges include the elderly with their expectations and needs, the middle aged with theirs, the young adults and the teens and children, all of whose needs conflict at various points. . .
and then you have Father X’s wife mixing with these people and having them have expectations of HER,
and the kids who will both be part of certain groups, and ‘in opposition’ to others, and who will invariably have some members of the family identify with truly oppositional groups. . .

and we’re not even starting to address here how Father X will handle his parish duties, what is expected of his wife, or the children. . .but no matter what, the entire group will be constantly failing to meet the expectations of SOME group or another, and there will be complaints and criticisms galore.

It’s hard enough for "Father Unmarried’ to deal with people criticizing HIM. How do you think he’ll feel when there are the constant criticisms of his wife and kids??