“Columbus noster est!” “Christopher Columbus is ours!”

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Adamek said:
And you know what of the standards of his age?
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You say this like it’s some obscure knowledge.

When Columbus was arrested and dragged back to Spain in chains for cruelty and extrajudicial executions, obviously the Spanish government was applying the standards of the age.

By the way, I always thought it was a tenet of Catholic teaching that morality didn’t change with time. What was wrong 500 years ago is wrong today.
 
Adamek said:
This is re-inventing history.
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Communities have the right to remove symbols that are offensive to people that live there. I would agree that the unilateral destruction of any public property is immoral, but it for those places that remove them properly, there is not re-write of history in that process. History is. Symbols change. The classic example is the CSA battle flag, which has changed symbolic meaning numerous times.
 
RolandThompsonGunner said:
When Columbus was arrested and dragged back to Spain in chains for cruelty and extrajudicial executions, obviously the Spanish government was applying the standards of the age.
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That is a good point, but only part of the truth. They were also released. While the accusations may have been true, it is just as likely that they were false, as the ones that made them wanted control of the colony. Also, there was no racism involve in that particular incident, as it dealt with treatment of Spanish citizens.

On the other hand, I have to plead a great deal of ignorance on this. I am no historian. Just remember that some of what was written about him was the HuffPo or Breitbart of the day.
 
pnewton said:
That is a good point, but only part of the truth. They were also released. While the accusations may have been true, it is just as likely that they were false, as the ones that made them wanted control of the colony. Also, there was no racism involve in that particular incident, as it dealt with treatment of Spanish citizens.
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I’m no historian either, but at looks as though some of accusations were exaggerated, but even Columbus’ supporters admitted that a good many were true. Columbus himself apparently admitted to some of them to the King and Queen.

This is why it’s annoying to hear people pretend Columbus is just being criticized for violating 2020 social norms. That’s not it. Columbus is being criticized for violating norms and standards that are universal, and in ways that were really egregious and cruel.
 
commenter said:
The fact that Columbus, like you and I, was imperfect and fell short of that standard does not negate that standard, or the Christopher who brought it.
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The message is more important than the messenger. I think in this case we honor the messenger too much. The message of Christianity was an afterthought for Columbus whose main purpose was economic. There are many more worthy spreaders of the gospel in early America, but they don’t get statues.
 
Colombus belongs to no one. He was an immoral person and quite frankly an idiot.
 
RolandThompsonGunner said:
Columbus was awful applying the standards of his own age.
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And that standard was Christianity. He first brought that standard here on a permanent basis. He was not the first to bring Original Sin here.

They already had slavery, racism, wars, human sacrifice here.
Columbus brought the standard by which sin was regarded as evil, and the potential for conversion.

Of course he fell short of that standard, as we all do, but he brought the standard by which we can measure Falling Short.

The movement to topple Columbus is a step towards toppling his namesake. There were holier Christians in his time, but it was this Christian who brought the Bible, the Mass, and the Confessional to this hemisphere.
 
Columbus arrested and he served … six weeks.

None other than Father Hardon puts up a defense of Columbus:

http://www.therealpresence.org/archives/Christopher_Columbus/Christopher_Columbus_003.htm
… Columbus was summoned to be tried by Bobodilla on charges that history shows were absolutely false. He was put in chains and sent as a prisoner to one of the caravels. The attendants were ordered to bind the Admiral in fetters: But they could not bring themselves to do so. Finally, an impudent and shameless cook by the name of Espinosa, riveted the irons on his master’s feet, in the words of a witness, “with the same alacrity and readiness as if he were serving him some savory dish.”

This introduction to Columbus’ critics was necessary if we are to understand something of the five hundred years of both admiration and animosity associated with the discoverer of the New World. It was not coincidental that when Columbus was put in chains, he was clothed in the robe of St. Francis and during the whole ordeal behaved as a worthy son of the humble man of Assisi.

As we read through the massive literature on Christopher Columbus, we find especially three charges leveled against his character. He is branded as being an invader of a land that belonged to the gentle inhabitants of the New World. He is charged with being an enslaver of the Indians who, until then, were living in joyful freedom among their contemporaries. Columbus is finally accused of being a cruel oppressor of persons who, until then, had been living in prosperous harmony.
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I don’t claim to know the truth but there does seem to be some counter-information out there.

More readings:

5. We celebrate Columbus Day because…​

Did you know that Columbus Day only became an official American Holiday in 1937?

Although the legacy and discoveries of Columbus had been celebrated unofficially since the 1790’s, the official holiday only happened because of The Knights of Columbus. The Knights of Columbus, an influential male-only Catholic organization, wanted a strong Catholic role model for their children to be dignified by the government. After intense lobbying by the Knights, President Franklin Roosevelt and Congress declared Columbus Day a legal and federal holiday in the U.S.
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www.crosswalk.com

5 Facts You Might Not Know about Christopher Columbus

“In 1492 Columbus sailed the ocean blue!” But is there most to the legacy of Christopher Columbus?
www.crosswalk.com www.crosswalk.com

There is lots of reading on all of this.
 
RolandThompsonGunner said:
This is why it’s annoying to hear people pretend Columbus is just being criticized for violating 2020 social norms.
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Then think of it as seeing him with modern sensibilities. He is no saint and the Church has never said he was. I guess I do not mind honoring people based on what they did. For example, I have no problem with statues of Caesar, or a Nixon library. Even I even admire an activist still living that goes by Quannel X, even though he has said some terrible things in the past. I admire the positive he has done and the man he has become.

Likewise I can admire a couple of the Southern leaders during the CSA(not many) because of their faith or their importance, the founding fathers, and many others. In light of that, I have no problem with a statue to this great explorer, or the Church giving him credit for the first steps in establishing one of the largest regions of Christianity on the globe. I also have no problem with communities offended by those statues demanding they be removed from public parks and buildings, on a local level.
 
Columbus exonerated?

5. MYTH: Columbus died a penniless man in prison.​

October 10, 2011
  • By Andrew Mach Contributor
FACT: Columbus died an exonerated man with his wealth restored.

Upon his return to Spain after his third voyage, Columbus was imprisoned for the barbaric acts of torture he had used to govern Hispaniola. He and a few of his men were jailed for six weeks until King Ferdinand ordered their release. Columbus’s freedom and wealth were restored, and the crown agreed to fund his fourth voyage.

Later in life, Columbus did demand that the Spanish crown give him 10 percent of all profits from the new lands, but Spanish rulers refused. This, however, hardly made Columbus a poor man.
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https://www.csmonitor.com/USA/2011/.../MYTH-Columbus-died-a-penniless-man-in-prison.
 
pnewton said:
Communities have the right to remove symbols that are offensive to people that live there.
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I am not sure as to the meaning of this statement as it refers to undefined “communities” and their rights. There is also reference to “the people:”. Is “communities” and “people” one and the same thing or are they different entities? And who bestowes these specific “rights” upon these unspecified groups? Are these “rights” written into the constitution, or, as in the case unfolding before us now, they are usurped by unknown entities who have current sway over some segments of society?

The actions that are performed today are performed by mobs that usurped the right to destroy whateve does not appeal to them at the moment.
 
JulianN said:
And that’s saying something!
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Seems to be the new line of argument: Columbus is linked with Christianity therefore if you don’t like Columbus the individual you by definition don’t like Christianity.
 
Adamek said:
I am not sure as to the meaning of this statement as it refers to undefined “communities” and their rights.
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Cities make most of the decisions, but in larger cities, the local neighborhoods might have a varied demographic. I said above that unilateral destruction by a single group is immoral.
 
It’s not a legend. There is archaeological evidence that there was a small Viking colony in what is now Newfoundland. That was short lived and whether they were Christians or pagans I do not know - but they could have been Christians. Regardless, I also mentioned Greenland, which is definitely Western Hemisphere, and which definitively had a well established colony throughout the late medieval period. Greenland even had bishops.
 
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pnewton said:
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Adamek:
I am not sure as to the meaning of this statement as it refers to undefined “communities” and their rights.
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Cities make most of the decisions, but in larger cities, the local neighborhoods might have a varied demographic. I said above that unilateral destruction by a single group is immoral.
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Years ago the media drove around looking to cover whatever was “important”. Today, whatever the media chooses to cover, thus becomes “important”. What they choose not to cover, like the March for Life, becomes unimportant.
 
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This is a very informative article from right here on Catholic Answers:

www.catholic.com

Columbus: Separating Myth from Fact

In popular myth, Columbus is the very symbol of European greed and genocidal imperialism. In reality, he was a dedicated Christian serving God.
www.catholic.com www.catholic.com

Here is some further information from the scholarly article “Columbus’ Ultimate Goal: Jerusalem” by Carol Delaney (2006):

It is believed the Libro de las profecías was compiled during the period between Columbus’s return from the third voyage in late October 1500 and the beginning of the fourth voyage in May 1502…This was a very difficult juncture in Columbus’s life: the crown had been receiving reports that the colony in Española/Hispaniola was in disarray and, at Columbus’s request, sent someone to investigate. The investigator, Francisco de Bobadilla, was shocked by what he found, and when Columbus returned from the countryside he had him arrested and sent him back to Spain in chains. Although Queen Isabella and King Ferdinand absolved him, he saw little chance of recovering his post as Viceroy and Governor of the islands that he had been granted in the Capitulations of Santa Fe on 17 April 1492. It may well be that the monarchs wanted to reduce the privileges they had granted to this foreigner at a time when they had no idea what, if anything, would be found in the colony.
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Here is part of one of the footnotes to this section:
Columbus was, after all, a mariner and not trained to be a colonial administrator. Bad things began to happen as early as 1493 when men were left behind after the Santa Maria went aground. They had gone against his explicit orders to do no harm to the Indians, to respect the cacique to whom they owed so much, not to scatter themselves but stay together, and to avoid doing violence against the women; in short to set a good example (see Thacher, I: 632). Instead, their behavior was outrageous: they raped the women and tried to force the natives to work for them. All of them were murdered before Columbus returned on the second voyage. The colonists he brought with him on the second voyage also assumed they could live a life of ease using the natives as servants. In Columbus’s words, ‘they were a greedy lot.’ Las Casas always spoke with respect and admiration of Columbus even as he criticized some of his expedient policies.
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It is imperative that we understand the true history of Christopher Columbus, using actual historical evidence to back up our claims. There is not doubt that European colonists inflicted many cruelties on Native Americans and Africans. However, based upon the evidence that I have seen, it does not seem that Christopher Columbus himself is exactly who people seem to claim that he was. I think that we have to look at the sum total of the evidence, and focus in on the actions and thoughts that he himself actually did and said. We also have to remember that he was human just like we are and he might have made mistakes or done bad things just like we do. That does not mean that we should attribute things to him that he didn’t actually do or to claim that he was a genocidal maniac without the proper evidence.
 
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