T
Tantum_ergo
Guest
When did Pope John Paul II ‘not’ defend the truth that Christ rose from the dead?
- Status
C
Carrie_Andrews
Guest
I’ve asked you before if you’ve ever read any of the books the Holy Father wrote, or seen his life story, or read his life story. You only answer with attacks, once again I’ll ask you what is your point in posting this thread, if you didn’t say you were Catholic, I’d believe you were a Catholic basher, you use all the same tricks they do. I don’t really expect you to reply, because you only answer questions you think you have the answer to and ignore the rest.
S
Sir_Knight
Guest
That’s all very well and good but let’s not forget what Pope Benedict XVI said on 1/31/07 – " … The saints are not people who never made mistakes or sinned, but who repented and were reconciled … " – (Source).
Wasn’t St. Paul a big sinner? Did he not murder believers and utter blasphemy against the church? Yet he was reconciled with the Lord and is credited with writing more of the NT than any one single author and is officially recognized as a saint.
Whether that reconcilation comes early or late does not matter. What matters is the state of the soul at the moment of death and given the fact that JPII went to confession three times a week, that is a good indication that he constantly sought that reconcilation.
S
Steve_O_Brien
Guest
On the contrary, in certain respects, it matters tremendously whether one’s conversion comes early or late, as I believe Pope Benedict XVI would tell you if he were posting on this forum.
St. Paul did not persecute Catholics after he had accepted the Faith, and, as an Apostle, he also repressed scandals. He even had the courage to employ fraternal correction to rectify a scandal that had been committed by the first Pope, St. Peter (*Gal *2:11).
When the issue is whether a Pope should be canonized, it is immensely significant whether he did or did not take action to root out scandals among the both the sheep and the other shepherds over whom Jesus made him the chief shepherd. This is so because one of the very foundations of the office of the successor of Peter is the Pope’s duty to strengthen us all in the profession of the one true Faith, as Jesus says in *Lk *22:31-32.
This must be said with great sadness: until the very last moment of his troubled pontificate, John Paul II failed to take adequate action in connection with all the Cardinal Clancys of the Church. All Catholics are still suffering from this failure.
The truth is sometimes painful, but God wants us always to face the truth. Manning up to the truth, and studying Pope John Paul II’s catechism, are the ways to honor our late Holy Father.
Keep and spread the Faith.
J
JKirkLVNV
Guest
The truth is far more nuanced than you seem to understand. There are LIMITED men qualified to be bishops because we’re short on priests in many places in the world. You also don’t seem to understand how bishops are selected. Popes do not and cannot micromanage the Church (esp. as they age and grow sick), nor can they wave their pastoral staffs as some think they should be able to do and hey, presto!
The truth is sometimes painful, so what will you do when Holy Mother Church in Her wisdom (far more than likely) canonizes the old man?
S
Steve_O_Brien
Guest
In post #224, the Devil mangled the following sentence:
***“When the issue is whether a Pope should be canonized, it is immensely significant whether he did or did not take action to root out scandals among both the sheep and the other shepherds over whom Jesus made him the chief shepherd.” ***
The truth is not so “nuanced” as to excuse the naming of bishops and cardinals who do not defend the deposit of the Faith. Suitable candidates for the episcopacy and the College of Cardinals are not so few that a Pope is justified in naming someone who has failed to uphold the truth that Jesus rose from the dead.
St. Paul has much to say on this subject in the “pastoral epistles” that he sent to the early Catholic bishops Timothy and Titus. Please check out, for example, 1 Tim 1:3-11.
As for “micromanagement” of the Church by the Pope, please consider an analogy. You find a cockroach in your Big Mac at McDonald’s. In response to your complaint, the manager says: “We serve hundreds of hamburgers a day! How on earth can I micromanage this place?” If he were to say that to you, I can easily imagine your reaction.
Keep and spread the Faith.
J
JKirkLVNV
Guest
Bad analogy. The Golden Arches doesn’t have a billion people in ONE restaturant, yet that’s how many the Church has spread all over the world.In post #224, the Devil mangled the following sentence:
***“When the issue is whether a Pope should be canonized, it is immensely significant whether he did or did not take action to root out scandals among both the sheep and the other shepherds over whom Jesus made him the chief shepherd.” ***
The truth is not so “nuanced” as to excuse the naming of bishops and cardinals who do not defend the deposit of the Faith. Suitable candidates for the episcopacy and the College of Cardinals are not so few that a Pope is justified in naming someone who has failed to uphold the truth that Jesus rose from the dead.
St. Paul has much to say on this subject in the “pastoral epistles” that he sent to the early Catholic bishops Timothy and Titus. Please check out, for example, 1 Tim 1:3-11.
As for “micromanagement” of the Church by the Pope, please consider an analogy. You find a cockroach in your Big Mac at McDonald’s. In response to your complaint, the manager says: “We serve hundreds of hamburgers a day! How on earth can I micromanage this place?” If he were to say that to you, I can easily imagine your reaction.
Keep and spread the Faith.
And you still haven’t answered my question.
S
Sir_Knight
Guest
Devil? What is that suppose to mean?
L
LilyM
Guest
Very bad analogy - if you go to your local McDonalds and get a roach in your burger you’re going to be angry at the person who made that burger and probably the manager of the restaurant.
Would you really get upset at the CEO of McDonalds responsible for their worldwide operations?? Even if by chance he was made personally aware that you got a roach in your burger?
I
Incense_Baby
Guest
Please?
C
Caesar
Guest
A canonization is merely when a person is declared to be in heaven. John Paul II may very well be in heaven. He may not. It is up to the Holy See to find out.
But usualy this is an honor reserved for significantly Holy people, and while John Paul II may have reigned for a long time I dont think everything about his Papacy was good as some do.
But usualy this is an honor reserved for significantly Holy people, and while John Paul II may have reigned for a long time I dont think everything about his Papacy was good as some do.
I
Incense_Baby
Guest
I don’t think he should be canonized either, if that’s what you’re saying (though I do believe he’s in heaven). But there are many Catholics I respect that do, which is why I’m puzzled that I’ve never received a clear-headed answer to my question. They assume I’d dislike any pope, but don’t give any reasonable explanation why he should be canonized…
I also want to know whether or not it is God’s judgment or the Church’s judgment when a saint is canonized. I know that canonization is infallible, but what I’m wondering is whether or not God chooses who to recognize or if that is the Church’s duty to recognize saints. If the latter is the case, then one could still argue against the worthiness of one’s canonization after beatification, since even poor souls can make it to heaven.
I
Incense_Baby
Guest
No one dares to give it a shot?
K
Kendy
Guest
He stood up boldly for the faith in times when it was very unpopular, and he inspired many people to come to the church, especially protestants. His theology of the body has given the church a new language to talk about gender and sex.
Plus, he’s awesome.
Kendy
C
Carrie_Andrews
Guest
I’ve read many of his books, many books about his life and seen him change the world. If you read about his life story, it may change your opinion of him. There are also reported miracles through the intersession of JPll. He lived a holy, beautiful life.
There’s another thread, very simular to yours.
There’s another thread, very simular to yours.
C
Carrie_Andrews
Guest
Oh yeah, let me add that too, he’s awesome!!!He stood up boldly for the faith in times when it was very unpopular, and he inspired many people to come to the church, especially protestants. His theology of the body has given the church a new language to talk about gender and sex.
Plus, he’s awesome.
Kendy
I
Incense_Baby
Guest
I guess that’s what it comes down to-- he inspired people. He didn’t inspire me (I must know too much). As for boldly proclaiming the faith, I would hope any pope would do that. I don’t see that act as extremely heroic. And theology of the body shouldn’t be cited as a reason for saintliness. The Holy Spirit was sent to guarantee all popes give sound theology.He stood up boldly for the faith in times when it was very unpopular, and he inspired many people to come to the church, especially protestants. His theology of the body has given the church a new language to talk about gender and sex.
Plus, he’s awesome.
Kendy
K
Kendy
Guest
Maybe, you’re too proud.
C
Carrie_Andrews
Guest
This was my thought also, and judgemental, I mean I can’t imagine what is entailed in being the pope, and it’s so obvious he suffered so much. Obviously, Incense baby, you don’t really want answers, you just want to attack the pope
L
LilyM
Guest
All the Popes before JP2 had sound theology and philosophy, of course, not quite as deep as his was though, even before he became Pope. Some of them were seriously lacking on the personal holiness level as well, which is probably where he was best.
As for heroic - visiting, praying with and forgiving the man who attempted to assassinate him? I think that’s heroic, it’s certainly not something everyone would be capable of.
Speaking out against Communism at a time when to do so was extremely dangerous (as the Bulgarian communist-sponsored assassination attempt shows) is also, I think, heroic.
Not saying that he wasn’t without some flaws, but if God wants him to be made a saint he will be.
- Status