“Unconscionable” San Francisco archbishop rejects circumcision ban

[Blacksword]

I have never in my life met anyone who regrets their parents circumcising them and had an angry talk wishing they had their foreskin back? Have you actually heard of people having this regret? I haven’t? Of course this is a priori but honestly I just don’t see the big deal. I don’t think most men spend a lot of time analyzing this body part’s asthetics and what could’ve been?

Hi, nice to meet you. There, you’ve met one now. I’ve had a few talks with my parents about it, and am absolutely unhappy and regret their decision. And I’ve actually personally met several people whom feel the same in real life, and seen hundreds and hundreds of similar accounts on the Internet about it.

I talked with a counselor about it too awhile back, and she mentioned she had actually had several patients who had the same feelings. She’s a Catholic counselor by the way, not some quack. So there you are.

Most men try actively not to think about it too much, but actually OFTEN when man learns about the many anatomical features and functions of the foreskin, he does have feelings of regret. It’s what happens next that varies greatly…acceptance, anger, denial and repression, justification attempts, reactions vary greatly, and frequently a man will have several of these different reactions at different times. A maintained air of indifference can also be a defense mechanism for many…but there it is.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

For the record, I’m perfectly fine with circumcision and despite going to San Francisco several times per year and being a raging Giants fan, the city can be quite bizarre in their legislative agenda. San Fran is great about the environment and very forward thinking about anything to do with technology, clean air, aforementioned environment, and more efficient ways of doing things. But politically when it comes to moral issues, nine out of ten times they’re wrong.

 

[Corki]

I a (probably futile) attempt to stay on topic, I will respond very selectively.

When it comes to medicine, doctors and parents do not have the right to make this decision for a child.

That’s simply not true - legally or according to Catholic teaching. The Church teaches that parents have the right and responsibility to make decisions for their children - this includes medical ones.

If I were a Jew, I would gladly accept my loss as the price of my being brought into my covenant and community of faith. I am not, however, and having a piece of me permanently taken without my permission and without any real purpose or likely derived medical benefit is an injustice.

And what if you were a Muslim? Or a Christian who was drawn to follow the OT disciplines? These are not prohibited as long as one realizes that following the old law is not required. There are Christians who chose to keep Kosher or to observe Saturday as the Sabbath. Just because it’s in the OT, doesn’t make it wrong.

Here’s the crux of the issue: if an American man, non-Jew or Muslim, is circumcised and happy about it, great for him. But what if your son is not? What if he grows upmto be quite hurt by this loss, in fact? What does this parent say to him?

The same thing I say about a lot of things. “It was our (parents) decision” He might be upset that I never signed him up for Little League or that I “forced” him to go to Catholic school. If he was circumcised as an infant and had no surgical complications, his being upset is going to be an emotional issue that can be worked through.

I’m not blaming anyone, I’m pointing out truth. If you are a parent who cut your son because you really thought it was a health benefit, you can always apologize to him if he regrets it.

If you did this because you really thought it was a health benefit, there would be nothing to apologize for.

Incidentally, I will also point out that the rest of the civilized world has looked on the US’ medicalized circumcision practice as barbaric and horrid. My wife is Japanese…she never had heard of such a thing before coming here, and was shocked and horrified when she did find out about this practice.

Not to be flip but I had a Japanese roommate in college. She was shocked and horrified that we used toilet paper. I am not going to make decisions for my family based on what people in other cultures may think.

 

[Blacksword]

I a (probably futile) attempt to stay on topic, I will respond very selectively.

That’s simply not true - legally or according to Catholic teaching. The Church teaches that parents have the right and responsibility to make decisions for their children - this includes medical ones.

And what if you were a Muslim? Or a Christian who was drawn to follow the OT disciplines? These are not prohibited as long as one realizes that following the old law is not required. There are Christians who chose to keep Kosher or to observe Saturday as the Sabbath. Just because it’s in the OT, doesn’t make it wrong.

The same thing I say about a lot of things. “It was our (parents) decision” He might be upset that I never signed him up for Little League or that I “forced” him to go to Catholic school. If he was circumcised as an infant and had no surgical complications, his being upset is going to be an emotional issue that can be worked through.

If you did this because you really thought it was a health benefit, there would be nothing to apologize for.

Not to be flip but I had a Japanese roommate in college. She was shocked and horrified that we used toilet paper. I am not going to make decisions for my family based on what people in other cultures may think.

Morally they do not have the right. THINKING it’s a medical decision doesn’t make it one, and the evidence has shown conclusively that there is NO conclusive medical evidence…facts are facts. As soon as you give me ONE medical association in the world recommending RIC, I’ll change my tune.

Saying “it’s a decision he can work through” is more than a little cold and is NOT reflective of a loving attitude towards your son. “sorry you feel scarred and disfigured in your most private area, get over it”? Nice…

The comment about the Japanese seems a little…low. They use toilet paper…they also have BIDETS on the toilet, and trust me, those are GREAT. We installed them on our toilets as a matter of fact, they are superior sanitation and cleanliness-wise. But anyway, refusing to even take heed at what other first world, advanced, civilized nations think on issues is not a very wise idea. They may be wrong, but not even considering their perspective is rather arrogant.

 

[The_Old_Medic]

It is not the least bit surprising that San Francisco would have such a thing on the ballot. It is so “Liberal”, that any religious practice is meaningless in that city. I am amazed that there has not been a ballot initiative to remove the name of St. Francis from the City, because after all, having a city named after a Catholic Saint is horrible for Jews, Muslims and above all the homosexual population.

I used to love San Francisco. I lived nearby throughout my childhood (I was even in a foster home in China Town for about 4 months). I loved to visit the city, and I spent a LOT of time there.

But, I stopped going there in the 1980’s, and I will NOT spend any time in that city any longer. I will not even go to their airport ((which is outside the city), unless it is absolutely necessary. When I go to Northern California, I fly into Oakland, and drive across the bridge at Vallejo, rather than go through that city.

It’s a shame, but I can not, and will not, economically support that town in any way. I miss North Beach (and its fabulous Italian Restaurants), China Town, the Japanese Restaurants, the Top of the Mark, Golden Gate Park, the Zoo, the Opera House, and so on and so on. But, until and unless it’s “political” climate changes, I will not spend one dime in that town.

By the way, for those that do not know, the City and the County of San Francisco are exactly the same, and have the same government.

 

[st_lucy]

Morally they do not have the right. THINKING it’s a medical decision doesn’t make it one, and the evidence has shown conclusively that there is NO conclusive medical evidence…facts are facts. As soon as you give me ONE medical association in the world recommending RIC, I’ll change my tune.

Saying “it’s a decision he can work through” is more than a little cold and is NOT reflective of a loving attitude towards your son. “sorry you feel scarred and disfigured in your most private area, get over it”? Nice…

I find it rather shocking and offensive that you or anyone can say that my decision as a parent to decide what it is I do for my child as wrong. Yes, I had my son circumcised, it was decision my husband and I along with our Dr had discussed and debated on for about 9 months. And for the most part it is not your or must certainly not the governments business.

Also what is this wining about a procedure that happened the day after you where born all about. This is rather silly, it is rather childish to cry for something that you have no re collation of every having possion of. You cannot possible remember the pain of the procedure and since you where probably only a day old when it happened I am going to go out on a branch and say you have no memory of the lost foreskin.

When my son was two years old he pulled down a statue that was on a shelf it fell and cut his head pretty badly. My husband, my Dr and I had a quick talk about whether we should go ahead and give him stitches, we decided that since my son had just had stitches done a few months prior on his chin and was now afraid of having more done that we would just for go the stitches on his head since the hair will cover up the scar. Now that he is older and likes to get a buzz cut in the summer I am always reminded of this accident at the scar is very noticeable.

From the way you talk about your circumcise, am I to expect my grown son to come whining to us about how we should have done the stitches and how now his life is just in ruins because of this medical decision we made for him. Were we in your opinion bad parents for making this choice for him, should we have let him make the grown up choice all on his own?

Parents are in charge of their children not the government and not you.

 

[SamTheNewfie]

I have never in my life met anyone who regrets their parents circumcising them and had an angry talk wishing they had their foreskin back? Have you actually heard of people having this regret? I haven’t? Of course this is a priori but honestly I just don’t see the big deal. I don’t think most men spend a lot of time analyzing this body part’s asthetics and what could’ve been?

Just because you’ve never spoken to one doesn’t mean they don’t exist. Foreskin restoration is a very painful process, yet men are still pursuing it. These men’s right to bodily autonomy was violated, and now they are paying the price.

 

[Blacksword]

I find it rather shocking and offensive that you or anyone can say that my decision as a parent to decide what it is I do for my child as wrong. Yes, I had my son circumcised, it was decision my husband and I along with our Dr had discussed and debated on for about 9 months. And for the most part it is not your or must certainly not the governments business.

Also what is this wining about a procedure that happened the day after you where born all about. This is rather silly, it is rather childish to cry for something that you have no re collation of every having possion of. You cannot possible remember the pain of the procedure and since you where probably only a day old when it happened I am going to go out on a branch and say you have no memory of the lost foreskin.

When my son was two years old he pulled down a statue that was on a shelf it fell and cut his head pretty badly. My husband, my Dr and I had a quick talk about whether we should go ahead and give him stitches, we decided that since my son had just had stitches done a few months prior on his chin and was now afraid of having more done that we would just for go the stitches on his head since the hair will cover up the scar. Now that he is older and likes to get a buzz cut in the summer I am always reminded of this accident at the scar is very noticeable.

From the way you talk about your circumcise, am I to expect my grown son to come whining to us about how we should have done the stitches and how now his life is just in ruins because of this medical decision we made for him. Were we in your opinion bad parents for making this choice for him, should we have let him make the grown up choice all on his own?

Parents are in charge of their children not the government and not you.

Sigh…your son NEEDED the stitches…I didn’t, and he probably didn’t as well, need any circumcision.

I hope your son will be very happy with your having made that decision for him. However, I must point out that your post is not charitable at all. It is personal, and frankly cruel. Who are you, or anyone, to call my or any other person’s legitimate feelings “whining”, “crying” or “childish”? How would you feel if you had had a surgical removal of your clitoral hood or part of your labia at birth? Would it be “whining” if you were unhappy about it? Your post is uncalled for, please at least be kind. I hope you never suffer the misfortune of losing a limb, breast, or other body part to actual disease, but if you did, at least that would be your decision at the time to treat an illness, and I bet you would be very offended and hurt if someone invalidated your rightful feelings about your body and your loss by saying “quit crying about it!”

 

[SamTheNewfie]

I find it rather shocking and offensive that you or anyone can say that my decision as a parent to decide what it is I do for my child as wrong. Yes, I had my son circumcised, it was decision my husband and I along with our Dr had discussed and debated on for about 9 months. And for the most part it is not your or must certainly not the governments business.

Also what is this wining about a procedure that happened the day after you where born all about. This is rather silly, it is rather childish to cry for something that you have no re collation of every having possion of. You cannot possible remember the pain of the procedure and since you where probably only a day old when it happened I am going to go out on a branch and say you have no memory of the lost foreskin.

When my son was two years old he pulled down a statue that was on a shelf it fell and cut his head pretty badly. My husband, my Dr and I had a quick talk about whether we should go ahead and give him stitches, we decided that since my son had just had stitches done a few months prior on his chin and was now afraid of having more done that we would just for go the stitches on his head since the hair will cover up the scar. Now that he is older and likes to get a buzz cut in the summer I am always reminded of this accident at the scar is very noticeable.

From the way you talk about your circumcise, am I to expect my grown son to come whining to us about how we should have done the stitches and how now his life is just in ruins because of this medical decision we made for him. Were we in your opinion bad parents for making this choice for him, should we have let him make the grown up choice all on his own?

Parents are in charge of their children not the government and not you.

Stitches are often a medically necessary procedure. The decision to have them is necessary to make at that time. As the rest of the world proves, whether to circumcise is a decision that can wait until the owner of the penis can decide for himself. It can be done at any age, yet it can’t be undone.

By your logic regarding the rights of parents choosing to surgically alter their children without imminent medical need, female circumcision, infant mastectomies, and feet binding should be legal.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

But given this rationale, you won’t visit Los Angeles or San Diego either because they have gay rights sympathies and have extremely liberal policies racially and are not all that friendly to conservative thinking. Most big cities, even lowly Fresno, have abortion clinics, sadly. There is good and evil in every city. San Francisco has a lot of homosexuals but actually Long Beach has become the gay capital of California these days. In fact, Minneapolis has become notorious for their gay community. Jon Stewart had a parody on the Daily Show recently about San Francisco being jealous of Minneapolis and how they had a cross-country war as to who is the “gayest.”

Each big city whether it’s in Texas or Florida or California or New York, has its outlandish liberals and its hardcore often unreasonable conservatives. It’s just part of the landscape of America unfortunately.

I’m a big Giants fan. I’ll continue to go to the Giants games until they actually have gay pride rainbow parades at the game. Then I’ll change teams. For now, I’m black and orange.

I love going to San Francisco. We go there a few times a year usually. The people I deal with are not hardcore liberals but usually nice folks. I see more weird people at Starbucks and Borders Bookstores here in conservative Tulare County than I do in Frisco.

It is not the least bit surprising that San Francisco would have such a thing on the ballot. It is so “Liberal”, that any religious practice is meaningless in that city. I am amazed that there has not been a ballot initiative to remove the name of St. Francis from the City, because after all, having a city named after a Catholic Saint is horrible for Jews, Muslims and above all the homosexual population.

I used to love San Francisco. I lived nearby throughout my childhood (I was even in a foster home in China Town for about 4 months). I loved to visit the city, and I spent a LOT of time there.

But, I stopped going there in the 1980’s, and I will NOT spend any time in that city any longer. I will not even go to their airport ((which is outside the city), unless it is absolutely necessary. When I go to Northern California, I fly into Oakland, and drive across the bridge at Vallejo, rather than go through that city.

It’s a shame, but I can not, and will not, economically support that town in any way. I miss North Beach (and its fabulous Italian Restaurants), China Town, the Japanese Restaurants, the Top of the Mark, Golden Gate Park, the Zoo, the Opera House, and so on and so on. But, until and unless it’s “political” climate changes, I will not spend one dime in that town.

By the way, for those that do not know, the City and the County of San Francisco are exactly the same, and have the same government.

 

[Soldier_Of_God]

I resent that. I am no anti-Semite, and until I say something anti-semetic, I’d appreciate withholding name calling.

Unfortunately, no such name calling occurred despite your inference. I appreciate your passion regarding this issue, however, to disingenuously take offence at a non-occurrence is inappropriate at a minimum.

No, they don’t, and I didn’t say they did. I said it was a tasteless and shameful cartoon. I definitely don’t favor the cartoon.

Then why bring up and highlight the point regarding World Word II propaganda?

 

[Blacksword]

Unfortunately, so such name calling occurred despite your inference. I appreciate your passion regarding this issue, however, to disingenuous take offence at a non-occurrence is inappropriate at a minimum.

Then why bring up and highlight the point regarding World Word II propaganda?

To point out that racist propaganda made by the US Military about the Japanese did not mean all Americans were racists, nor that the US cause in the war was wrong. Likewise, that afore-mentioned offensive cartoon does not mean that all persons supporting genital integrity are anti-semetic, nor does it mean that the cause of genital integrity is wrong. That’s all.

 

[Soldier_Of_God]

To point out that racist propaganda made by the US Military about the Japanese did not mean all Americans were racists, nor that the US cause in the war was wrong. Likewise, that afore-mentioned offensive cartoon does not mean that all persons supporting genital integrity are anti-semetic, nor does it mean that the cause of genital integrity is wrong. That’s all.

Unfortunately, it wasn’t clear to me in that post. Thank-you for clarifying.

 

[Pax_et_Bonum]

The use of that cartoon was offensive,ill considered and inappropriate period.If a protestant published a cartoon by Jack Chick to make a point however obscure he would probably be banned.
As the Brother-in-Law of a Jew and the Uncle of a Jewish niece and nephew I was ashamed that it appeared on a Catholic website.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Genital integrity?

To point out that racist propaganda made by the US Military about the Japanese did not mean all Americans were racists, nor that the US cause in the war was wrong. Likewise, that afore-mentioned offensive cartoon does not mean that all persons supporting genital integrity are anti-semetic, nor does it mean that the cause of genital integrity is wrong. That’s all.

 

[Pax_et_Bonum]

I find it rather shocking and offensive that you or anyone can say that my decision as a parent to decide what it is I do for my child as wrong. Yes, I had my son circumcised, it was decision my husband and I along with our Dr had discussed and debated on for about 9 months. And for the most part it is not your or must certainly not the governments business.

Also what is this wining about a procedure that happened the day after you where born all about. This is rather silly, it is rather childish to cry for something that you have no re collation of every having possion of. You cannot possible remember the pain of the procedure and since you where probably only a day old when it happened I am going to go out on a branch and say you have no memory of the lost foreskin.

When my son was two years old he pulled down a statue that was on a shelf it fell and cut his head pretty badly. My husband, my Dr and I had a quick talk about whether we should go ahead and give him stitches, we decided that since my son had just had stitches done a few months prior on his chin and was now afraid of having more done that we would just for go the stitches on his head since the hair will cover up the scar. Now that he is older and likes to get a buzz cut in the summer I am always reminded of this accident at the scar is very noticeable.

From the way you talk about your circumcise, am I to expect my grown son to come whining to us about how we should have done the stitches and how now his life is just in ruins because of this medical decision we made for him. Were we in your opinion bad parents for making this choice for him, should we have let him make the grown up choice all on his own?

Parents are in charge of their children not the government and not you.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I acknowledged that it was a priori, in my experience, and I never gave an impression that it doesn’t exist. I merely find it a rarity. If you walk down the street and collect 100 guys who were circumcised, I find it improbable that a grip of these guys are either going to take terms like “genital integrity” seriously nor lament someting missing that they never remember having. The reason I point to the Old Testament is merely to say that if God felt men could live without it, obviously it can’t be all that big a woop.

I agree with St. Lucy’s post. It’s nobody’s dang business. It’s between the doctor and parents.

Just because you’ve never spoken to one doesn’t mean they don’t exist. Foreskin restoration is a very painful process, yet men are still pursuing it. These men’s right to bodily autonomy was violated, and now they are paying the price.

 

[Pax_et_Bonum]

I am a man.I am quite mature.I know and have known hundreds if not thousands of men in my life.Most men my age were circumcised routinely.I have NEVER heard one whine about being circumcised.Not.One.
Are you going to ban certain ethnic groups from piercing their daughters ears?That’ll be next.Are you going to have parades and protests and make parents feel guilty about a decision they made in their sons’ best interest?This practice has been around for 6000 years and some “enlightened” ACTIVISTS in California are going to ensure the rest of us have to live by their rules?Typical pinko leftist reasoning.WE KNOW BEST.Get a life.

 

[SamTheNewfie]

I acknowledged that it was a priori, in my experience, and I never gave an impression that it doesn’t exist. I merely find it a rarity. If you walk down the street and collect 100 guys who were circumcised, I find it improbable that a grip of these guys are either going to take terms like “genital integrity” seriously nor lament someting missing that they never remember having. The reason I point to the Old Testament is merely to say that if God felt men could live without it, obviously it can’t be all that big a woop.

I agree with St. Lucy’s post. It’s nobody’s dang business. It’s between the doctor and parents.

The same could be said about females who’ve been circumcised. American culture has rationalized the procedure for so long most don’t see it with a clear lense. When you know better you do better. It’s interesting that the newborn circumcision rate has gone from 90% in the 70s to 32% in 2010. Widespread access to information is a powerful thing.

well.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/08/17/u-s-circumcision-rates-on-the-decline/

 

[SamTheNewfie]

I am a man.I am quite mature.I know and have known hundreds if not thousands of men in my life.Most men my age were circumcised routinely.I have NEVER heard one whine about being circumcised.Not.One.
Are you going to ban certain ethnic groups from piercing their daughters ears?That’ll be next.Are you going to have parades and protests and make parents feel guilty about a decision they made in their sons’ best interest?This practice has been around for 6000 years and some “enlightened” ACTIVISTS in California are going to ensure the rest of us have to live by their rules?Typical pinko leftist reasoning.WE KNOW BEST.Get a life.

First of all, since when being upset over the forcible removal of the most erogenous zone of one’s body whining? Would you call a woman who is upset about the removal of her clitoral hood and speaks out so other girls won’t have to go through the same thing “whining”?

And circumcision is not analogous to ear piercing. It’s more comparable to the surgical removal of the ear lobe.