10 commandments vs Bible

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Genesis315 said:
The commandments in the catechetical formula are simplified from the Biblical text to help with memorization. The Catholic Catechism is clear that idolatry is a sin against the First Commandment (see CCC 2112 to 2114).

The prohibition you quote is not against simply making them, but in making them for adoration (now you are leaving out some of God’s word, which follows the part you quote).

In fact, God commands carved images to be made on multiple occasions, for example:

Exo. 25:19 Make one cherub on the one end, and one cherub on the other end; of one piece with the mercy seat shall you make the cherubim on its two ends. 20 The cherubim shall spread out their wings above, overshadowing the mercy seat with their wings, their faces one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubim be.

Num. 21:8 And the LORD said to Moses, “Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole; and every one who is bitten, when he sees it, shall live.”
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1st Kings 6:23-28

23 For the inner sanctuary he made a pair of cherubim out of olive wood, each ten cubits high. 24 One wing of the first cherub was five cubits long, and the other wing five cubits—ten cubits from wing tip to wing tip. 25 The second cherub also measured ten cubits, for the two cherubim were identical in size and shape. 26 The height of each cherub was ten cubits. 27 He placed the cherubim inside the innermost room of the temple, with their wings spread out. The wing of one cherub touched one wall, while the wing of the other touched the other wall, and their wings touched each other in the middle of the room. 28 He overlaid the cherubim with gold.

10 cubits, BTW is about 4 metres, or 15 feet.
 
We don’t exclude it. We believe 20:3-6 is all the First Commandment.

It’s worth noting that the Jews, Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, and Protestants all don’t agree on the exact Ten Commandments.

The Christian First Commandment is the Jewish Second Commandment. The Catholic Ten Commandments 1-9 match the Jewish commandments 2-8.


https://www.catholic.com/ten-commandments






Orthodox and Protetants typipcally make Catholic Commandment 9-10 as one, while Catholics make Orthodox/Protestant Commandment 1-2 as one commandment.

Honestly… the Ten Commandments is simply a quote of a large section of Ex 20., called the Decalogue.

How we break it up isn’t important as long as nothing is missing.
 
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jason2 said:
So the statues of Mary, as an example, do not violate “You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above”?

A statue of Mary IS a carved image and likeness of something in heaven above. Sorry, this is black and white and you lose credibility with an answer like that.
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Fauken has showed you examples that God even commanded the creation of graven images for sacred and healing purposes, which, according to your interpretation, violates his own commandments.

A careful reading of the commandment in full:

You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God

You CANNOT just take one text and use that as a wholesale prohibition. The text that follows is just as important. What is prohibited is the creation of graven images for the purposes of worshipping them as gods, something Catholicism expressly forbids. By itself, and based on the examples elsewhere in the Bible, not only was religious imagery (graven images) tolerated, but even commanded.
 
Before I answer that I have another question. Do you have dead relatives?
 
jason2 said:
So, you are justifying the violation the commandment listed in Exodus 20:4?
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If you are claiming that the Catholic Church is violating Exodus 20:4, then so are the Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Church of the East, Anglican Church, Methodist, Lutherans, etc all are breaking Exodus 20:1234:

We are not breaking Exodus 20:4 because we are NOT guessing as to what they look like. Early Christians knew what Jesus looked like because they saw him.

Christians know what the Saints looked like because they were real people. We don’t make representation of what God the Father looks like (though some artists have). We only make representation of what Humans looked like when they were alive.
 
You have heard or read incorrectly. The first commandment covers ALL. No idols, no false gods, no pagan deities, nothing except God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

But wait!

Father Son and Holy Spirit are not mentioned in the 10 Commandments, yet you and I worship them!

How can that be?

BTW, Martin Luther’s commandments as he wrote them in his bible are identical to the Catholic.

As to idols, if you had the Book of Wisdom (aka Wisdom of Solomon) in your bible, you would read many more condemnations of idols.

If you had a catechism of the Catholic Church (the official deposit of faith and teachings) you would see more of exactly the same.

The veneration of the great Saints, including the mother that Jesus created for Himself, is NOT NOT NOT worship. Again, I strongly suspect that you have been taught completely wrongly - by someone who has as much hate in their heart as they do love.

Please remain here and unlearn the false “facts” that someone has taught you about the Catholic Church. Ask more questions, as the truth is all that matters.
 
jason2 said:
So the statues of Mary, as an example, do not violate “You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above”?

A statue of Mary IS a carved image and likeness of something in heaven above. Sorry, this is black and white and you lose credibility with an answer like that.
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Mary is a human being. Statues of Mary were carved to look like she looked when she was alive.

Should we destroy statues of George Washington and Abe Lincoln because they are dead?
 
Yes of course I have dead relatives, and yes, I have pictures of them that were taken when they were alive. However, I haven’t made statues of them or bow down before an image of them and say anything like “Hail Grandpa, full of grace” before them, etc…

You have already answered my question and I don’t need any more responses from you. We obviously disagree. Someday we will find out for sure what God meant when we meet Jesus.
 
Well no, of course you don’t say “Hail Grandpa, full of grace.” If this is a snipe at the Hail Mary, can I assume then you take issue with Luke 1:28?

We do disagree. One of us who is actually Catholic and actually deals with these things on a practically daily basis, and one who insists otherwise. And I’m sure we will and that you’ll be surprised! 🙂
 
I do have an open mind, and the more I look into Catholicism the more things I find to be twisted into a pretzel to make the argument work. Put another way, I don’t think anyone could read the bible and end up with the Catholic Church. And, yes, I know it is based on (human) traditions and scripture, etc, but that’s just more pretzel twisting.

We have an amazing God and let’s agree on that and leave it there.
 
Did you read the posts I linked to above (the article by Jimmy Akin, and the section from the Catholic Catechism)? If you are honestly seeking to understand the Catholic perspective, you will find it articulated well there. I would encourage you to read those.

If you already think you know the Catholic response and are just out to proselytize against Catholic teaching, I’ll just point out that it is against forum rules to do so.
 
I don’t see how anyone could read history and be Protestant.

You have a funny way of saying we all have an amazing God (which, we do) and leaving it at that when your very first words to your brothers and sisters in Christ on this forum is to accuse them of the very grave sin of idolatry.
 
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When I am away from my son, I will give his picture a goodnight kiss.
 
there was a girl, I hadn’t talked to in awhile, because we were not on speaking terms, and I had a picture of her on my phone, and I told her this, is that when I missed her I would kiss that picture. Oh no, I’m worshiping my phone!
 
jason2 said:
Yes of course I have dead relatives, and yes, I have pictures of them that were taken when they were alive. However, I haven’t made statues of them or bow down before an image of them and say anything like “Hail Grandpa, full of grace” before them, etc…

You have already answered my question and I don’t need any more responses from you. We obviously disagree. Someday we will find out for sure what God meant when we meet Jesus.
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Why is quoting Scripture bad? When we say “Hail Mary, Full of Grace” we are quoting Scripture
 
Well, plenty of people do make an idol out of their phone. 😜 But, I don’t think that qualifies. 😄
 
He didn’t respond to me when I pointed that out, so perhaps he didn’t realize the Biblical basis for it. Or simply doesn’t care that it has one. Hopefully it’s not the latter.
 
You also provided the examples of the cherubim (graven images of creatures in heaven), and the brass serpent (graven image of a creature on earth). I backed you up with the example of Solomon’s Temple, which had 15-ft gold-layered cherubim (graven images of creatures in heaven), and of course, which was enshrouded in the shekinah, the cloud of God’s glory.

He did not address those particular Scripture passages, only left with “agree to disagree.”
 
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