100% of Florida Sheriffs Refuse to Enforce federal Gun Bans

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Part of the oath is to serve the commander in chief. How many people are serving in the military right now?

No. The oath was not to** serve ** the president, it is to obey the orders of one’s superiors. And the precedent and training is the caveat— those orders have to be lawful, an enlisted person can be prosecuted for following unlawful orders of a superior.

The Oath of Enlistment (for enlisted):

“I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God.”

The Oath of Office (for officers):

“I, _____ (SSAN), having been appointed an officer in the _____ (Military Branch) of the United States, as indicated above in the grade of _____ do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign or domestic, that I will bear true faith and allegiance tot he same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservations or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office upon which I am about to enter; So help me God.”

I have no idea what the sheriff’s in Florida take as an oath, if it is similar their first allegiance is to our system of government. Not to any office in it, or any institution within it.
 
No. The oath was not to** serve ** the president, it is to obey the orders of one’s superiors. And the precedent and training is the caveat— those orders have to be lawful, an enlisted person can be prosecuted for following unlawful orders of a superior.

The Oath of Enlistment (for enlisted):

“I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God.”

The Oath of Office (for officers):

“I, _____ (SSAN), having been appointed an officer in the _____ (Military Branch) of the United States, as indicated above in the grade of _____ do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign or domestic, that I will bear true faith and allegiance tot he same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservations or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office upon which I am about to enter; So help me God.”

I have no idea what the sheriff’s in Florida take as an oath, if it is similar their first allegiance is to our system of government. Not to any office in it, or any institution within it.
emphasis is mine…

Do you understand chain of command? What place does the commander in chief have in that chain? I did say serve and the oath is OBEY. Seems to go a bit further in my opinion, and falls under ‘semantics’.
 
The AR15 is proving extremely dangerous, to large groups of people, in the wrong hands. How many people were shot in Aurora? 64? 26 at Newtown. They fire as fast as one can pull a trigger. While 90 people is a small percentage, and 2 incidents is even smaller, they are great tragedies, in my and other people’s opinions. There are other guns that can be utilized for home defense.
But again you ignore several things,
  • how many were killed by their own governments in the last 120 years?
  • Newton had all the laws you propose
  • The Aurora killer deliberately sought out a gun free zone.
Weapons in the hands of civilians are used 3 to 5 times more often in self-defense than for crime.

I’m sorry you don’t agree with the system of checks and balances set up in the constitution. There is a procedure for amending the constitution vice subverting it. If the American people support amending the constitution in accordance with those procedures to eliminate 2a, I’ll abide by it. The bill of rights was set forward because this country was not founded as a democracy, but a republic. It was founded on the concept that there are individual rights which can not be taken why by the tyranny of the majority.

However, as 2A erodes we’ll see the others erode as well. The US colleges where various speakers are now shouted down, where certain speech becomes verboten as ‘hate speech’, that is coming more and more to mean anything against the progressive agenda. I expect that to continue, and move off the campuses.

A couple of quotes I particularly like:

Jeff Snyder
“To ban guns because criminals use them is to tell the innocent and law-abiding that their rights and liberties depend not on their own conduct, but on the conduct of the guilty and the lawless, and that the law will permit them to have only such rights and liberties as the lawless will allow… For society does not control crime, ever, by forcing the law-abiding to accommodate themselves to the expected behavior of criminals. Society controls crime by forcing the criminals to accommodate themselves to the expected behavior of the law-abiding.”

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron’s cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.
C. S. Lewis

By the way, the NY state supreme court has directed the state government to show that the law is constitutional-
wktv.com/news/local/State-Supreme-Court-wants-NYS-to-show-good-cause-that-gun-law-is-constitutional-193664911.html
 
emphasis is mine…

Do you understand chain of command? What place does the commander in chief have in that chain? I did say serve and the oath is OBEY. Seems to go a bit further in my opinion, and falls under ‘semantics’.
Again, you ignore the precedent under the UCMJ that those orders must be lawful. If a general orders a private to mow down an unarmed crowd of demonstrators- the private will be prosecuted.

Believe it or not I fully understand the chain of command, I was part of it, I was also part of the admin sep boards and Court Martials where the excuse ‘I was ordered to do it’ didn’t work out very well for the accused.

ETA: bolded for emphasis-
The Oath of Enlistment (for enlisted):

“I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God.”

Note the modifier applies to both the orders of the president and the officers.
 
But again you ignore several things,
  • how many were killed by their own governments in the last 120 years?
  • Newton had all the laws you propose
  • The Aurora killer deliberately sought out a gun free zone.
What other governments have done, over the last 3 generations, has nothing to do with this country, in my opinion. It’s a view that is only being held in the interest of people having free reign to arm themselves however they please, as I see it.

Newtown had a ban on assault guns, except those grandfathered, like the one Lanza used.

So what? Guns are not allowed in many places, all open to the next mass shooter.
 
Again, you ignore the precedent under the UCMJ that those orders must be lawful. If a general orders a private to mow down an unarmed crowd of demonstrators- the private will be prosecuted.

Believe it or not I fully understand the chain of command, I was part of it, I was also part of the admin sep boards and Court Martials where the excuse ‘I was ordered to do it’ didn’t work out very well for the accused.
Like soldiers have the ability to legally interpret orders as given by the president of the United States. That’s not in the oath.
 


So what? Guns are not allowed in many places, all open to the next mass shooter.
Exactly. So, as I said before- than instead of redoing the same thing which doesn’t work. Why not prohibit the gun-free zones in areas open to the public? The problem isn’t the availability of weapons, it’s the disarming of folks and eliminating their ability to defend themselves or those they are responsible for.
(except on private property- but that’s a separate discussion. What’s the line between property rights and 2A rights)

As to other countries and slaughters through history. I guess we’ll just have to differ over whether the US has bred a superior race of human beings.
 
Like soldiers have the ability to legally interpret orders as given by the president of the United States. That’s not in the oath.
You may have missed my edit to the post above:

ETA: bolded for emphasis-
The Oath of Enlistment (for enlisted):

“I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God.”

Note the modifier applies to both the orders of the president and the officers. And yes, enlisted have been held responsible for carrying out orders that violated the UCMJ. Going along with their senior orders, it’s not a defense.

Since the first part of the oath is to the Constitution, then yes, if something clearly violates the constitution it’s unlawful regardless of the level its coming from. Now, will the prosecutions go all the way down to the junior enlisted. I don’t know, it would have to be put in context. Winners and those in power write history and declare who was right and who was wrong.
 
Exactly. So, as I said before- than instead of redoing the same thing which doesn’t work. Why not prohibit the gun-free zones in areas open to the public? The problem isn’t the availability of weapons, it’s the disarming of folks and eliminating their ability to defend themselves or those they are responsible for.
(except on private property- but that’s a separate discussion. What’s the line between property rights and 2A rights)

As to other countries and slaughters through history. I guess we’ll just have to differ over whether the US has bred a superior race of human beings.
Because those who want to put more guns in more places don’t seem to take into account of placing guns in the presence of children. That’s placing them more in harm’s way than protecting.

Our country is still a very new country when compared to many around the world. And, it’s not a superior race, it’s the advantages offered from within. I thank God for the blessing of living in such a place, knowing what goes on in this world. Speaking otherwise about it, is taking for granted what God has blessed us with.
 
emphasis is mine…

Do you understand chain of command? What place does the commander in chief have in that chain? I did say serve and the oath is OBEY. Seems to go a bit further in my opinion, and falls under ‘semantics’.
It also says "in accordance with the Uniform Code of Military Justice. Noone is comelled to obey an unlawful order, even if it comes down from the Emperor himself.
 
Also, I read in one of these posts about “higher Officers” in the oath, You can have the President saying one thing and a Governor saying another. Mitigating circumstances.
 
Because those who want to put more guns in more places don’t seem to take into account of placing guns in the presence of children. That’s placing them more in harm’s way than protecting.

Our country is still a very new country when compared to many around the world. And, it’s not a superior race, it’s the advantages offered from within. I thank God for the blessing of living in such a place, knowing what goes on in this world. Speaking otherwise about it, is taking for granted what God has blessed us with.
Well, I think it is taking it for granted in believing that it will necessarily continue to be a free place without diligence on our part. Without a thoughtful understanding of what has made it the wonderful place it is, what protections and checks and balances that the founders put in place that have created it.

Most erosion of freedom isn’t due to evil intent or malfeasance. It is simply the nature of a bureaucracy, and we have huge one. The bureaucrats make rules, regulations, laws because that’s what they do. Have you ever read the Peter principle? Interesting book in explaining bureaucracy, good folks getting promoted and feeling its their job to make rules, otherwise they feel unproductive. Anyway, any bureaucracy corporate or government will continue to generate new rules and regulations, and each one is some type of impediment or limitation on freedom.

And this gets back to the sheriffs, their oaths and how they fulfill them. For the US to continue to be a place that respects personal freedoms (… which hand in hand should be accompanied by personal responsibility and accountability) we do need men like this who stand up for our rights. Be they religious freedom, freedom to assemble, freedom to bear arms or freedom of speech.
 
… And, it’s not a superior race,…
Well, if we aren’t than why would we believe our politicians are any less vulnerable to the temptations of power, its abuse, the lust for domination, the desire to control others and force them to live correctly? If they’re human beings, if we aren’t superior than I can only conclude that the disasters which have occurred elsewhere around the globe throughout history can happen here. Unless there are things in place to prevent tyranny like, the intent of the constitution as the DC Court of Appeals in Heller, upheld by SCOTUS put it-

“To summarize, we conclude that the Second Amendment
protects an individual right to keep and bear arms. That right
existed prior to the formation of the new government under the
Constitution and was premised on the private use of arms for
activities such as hunting and self-defense, the latter being
understood as resistance to either private lawlessness or the
depredations of a tyrannical government (or a threat from
abroad). In addition, the right to keep and bear arms had the
important and salutary civic purpose of helping to preserve the
citizen militia. The civic purpose was also a political expedient
for the Federalists in the First Congress as it served, in part, to
placate their Anti-federalist opponents. The individual right
facilitate¬d militia service by ensuring that citizens would not be
barred from keeping the arms they would need when called forth
for militia duty. Despite the importance of the Second
Amendment’s civic purpose, however, the activities it protects
are not limited to militia service, nor is an individual’s
enjoyment of the right contingent upon his or her continued or
intermittent enrollment in the militia.”

Should the sheriffs be honoring the SCOTUS/federal court interpretation of 2A?

It’s all about reasonable restrictions, and SCOTUS was silent in defining what those are, so do you, if you took an oath, look at the intent? Folks want to limit this sometimes to colonial era weapons, which the DC Court also addressed:

The modern handgun—and for that matter the rifle and
long-barreled shotgun—is undoubtedly quite improved over its
colonial-era predecessor, but it is, after all, a lineal descendant
of that founding-era weapon, and it passes Miller’s standards.
Pistols certainly bear “some reasonable relationship to the
preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia.” They are
also in “common use” today, and probably far more so than in
1789. Nevertheless, it has been suggested by some that only
colonial-era firearms (e.g., single-shot pistols) are covered by
the Second Amendment. But just as the First Amendment free
speech clause covers modern communication devices unknown
to the founding generation, e.g., radio and television, and the
Fourth Amendment protects telephonic conversation from a
“search,” the Second Amendment protects the possession of the
modern-day equivalents of the colonial pistol. See, e.g., Kyllo
v. United States, 533 U.S. 27, 31-41 (2001) (applying Fourth
Amendment standards to thermal imaging search).

If the principle overrides the technology changing, than I believe that, as others have said, the AR is in fact the ‘modern musket’. It is in common use at this time.
(In orals the Solicitor General while attempting to defend the DC ban expressed the opinion that M16 machine guns would probably fall into the definition of ‘arms’ protected under 2A despite the current ban. In common use by the national guard. I don’t think that will ever fly especially since the military has found burst fire far more effective.
 
The AR15 is proving extremely dangerous, to large groups of people, in the wrong hands. How many people were shot in Aurora? 64? 26 at Newtown. They fire as fast as one can pull a trigger. While 90 people is a small percentage, and 2 incidents is even smaller, they are great tragedies, in my and other people’s opinions. There are other guns that can be utilized for home defense.
Uhm Ahem cough cough

Congressional Research Service Report: Under 2 percent of gun crimes involve assault weapons

washingtonexaminer.com/crs-under-2-percent-of-gun-crimes-involve-assault-weapons/article/2516512

So the two mass shootings you cite are greater tragedies than all the other murders?

Why?
 
Your condescension and tone as a whole are somewhat insulting. Why do you feel it necessary to include such in this discussion?

II apologize. I have been trying to have a discussion ‘Christian to Christian’, which requires charity of all involved. Is that outside the realm of reality?
Frankly your obfuscation and irrational logic based on your obviously latent political motives are somewhat insulting to me.

And the fact that you are questioning my “Christianity” smacks of the myopic hypocrisy of one who is less than charitable in his self-righteousness.

So there’s that.
 
2265 Legitimate defense can be not only a right but a grave duty for one who is responsible for the lives of others. The defense of the common good requires that an unjust aggressor be rendered unable to cause harm. For this reason, those who legitimately hold authority also have the right to use arms to repel aggressors against the civil community entrusted to their responsibility.

Seems there maybe a disagreement on interpretation. 🤷

Those rights were given by a secular government, or ‘Caesar’. Give to Caesar, give to God…
So would you claim that the Jewish resistance in the Warsaw ghetto uprising was unjust, as the Jewish defenders had right under civil law to bear arms?

Or would the legio that gives legitimacy to an authority the natural moral?
 
Because those who want to put more guns in more places don’t seem to take into account of placing guns in the presence of children. That’s placing them more in harm’s way than protecting.
Evidence please.

Cite it.
 
Our country is still a very new country when compared to many around the world. And, it’s not a superior race, it’s the advantages offered from within. I thank God for the blessing of living in such a place, knowing what goes on in this world. Speaking otherwise about it, is taking for granted what God has blessed us with.
Yes. And one of the “advantages offered from within” was the wisdom of our Founding Fathers to ensure that citizens had a right to arm themselves.
 
Ahem:

"While the emotionally-charged anti-gun bid is accepted by many Americans and congressional lawmakers still coming to grips with the Sandy Hook killings,** the CRS report makes the case that even without the tougher weapons rules, gun deaths are plummeting as gun sales are surging, including those of semiautomatic pistols and rifles. **Gun advocates are seizing on the report to help brake new gun-control legislation which they claim would do nothing to stop crime.

Consider gun ownership. “Per capita,” said CRS,** “the civilian gun stock has roughly doubled since 1968**, from one gun per every two persons to one gun per person.”

Then look at gun deaths. CRS found that in the last decade, from 1993 to 2011, gun-related murders have been cut in half. In 1993, there were 17,073 gun killings, for a rate of 6.6 per 100,000 people. Last year that was cut to 9,903 murders for a rate of 3.2 per 100,000. Over the past decade, suicides by guns have far outnumbered murders.

And the drop in youth killings by guns has been even greater, from a 1993 high of 1,975 to 887 in 2009, said CRS."

washingtonexaminer.com/crs-under-2-percent-of-gun-crimes-involve-assault-weapons/article/2516512
 
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