10K Jews to the Temple Mount

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Vern,

My church, Saint Mary’s in Batesville, Arkansas, was desecrated and burned by the Ku Klux Klan in the 1970s. I can tell you first hand that the destruction of someone else’s holy place is both immoral and sinful.

==> Thank you, now you see my point. 🙂

What paragraph of the Catechism did you find that in?

==> **2242 **The citizen is obliged in conscience not to follow the directives of civil authorities when they are contrary to the demands of the moral order, to the fundamental rights of persons or the teachings of the Gospel. Refusing obedience to civil authorities, when their demands are contrary to those of an upright conscience, finds its justification in the distinction between serving God and serving the political community. “Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s.” “We must obey God rather than men”:

When citizens are under the oppression of a public authority which oversteps its competence, they should still not refuse to give or to do what is objectively demanded of them by the common good; but it is legitimate for them to defend their own rights and those of their fellow citizens against the abuse of this authority within the limits of the natural law and the Law of the Gospel.
**1979 **The natural law is immutable, permanent throughout history. The rules that express it remain substantially valid. It is a necessary foundation for the erection of moral rules and civil law.

**2455 **The moral law forbids acts which, for commercial or totalitarian purposes, lead to the enslavement of human beings, or to their being bought, sold or exchanged like merchandise.

**1713 **Man is obliged to follow the moral law, which urges him “to do what is good and avoid what is evil” (cf. *GS *16). This law makes itself heard in his conscience.

**2269 **The fifth commandment forbids doing anything with the intention of *indirectly *bringing about a person’s death. The moral law prohibits exposing someone to mortal danger without grave reason, as well as refusing assistance to a person in danger.

The acceptance by human society of murderous famines, without efforts to remedy them, is a scandalous injustice and a grave offense. Those whose usurious and avaricious dealings lead to the hunger and death of their brethren in the human family indirectly commit homicide, which is imputable to them.

*Unintentional *killing is not morally imputable. But one is not exonerated from grave offense if, without proportionate reasons, he has acted in a way that brings about someone’s death, even without the intention to do so.

**2273 **The inalienable right to life of every innocent human individual is a constitutive element of a civil society and its legislation:

“The inalienable rights of the person must be recognized and respected by civil society and the political authority. These human rights depend neither on single individuals nor on parents; nor do they represent a concession made by society and the state; they belong to human nature and are inherent in the person by virtue of the creative act from which the person took his origin. Among such fundamental rights one should mention in this regard every human being’s right to life and physical integrity from the moment of conception until death.” “The moment a positive law deprives a category of human beings of the protection which civil legislation ought to accord them, the state is denying the equality of all before the law. When the state does not place its power at the service of the rights of each citizen, and in particular of the more vulnerable, the very foundations of a state based on law are undermined. . . . As a consequence of the respect and protection which must be ensured for the unborn child from the moment of conception, the law must provide appropriate penal sanctions for every deliberate violation of the child’s rights.”
 
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TPJCatholic:
What paragraph of the Catechism did you find that in?

==> **2242 **The citizen is obliged in conscience not to follow the directives of civil authorities when they are contrary to the demands of the moral order, to the fundamental rights of persons or the teachings of the Gospel. Refusing obedience to civil authorities, when their demands are contrary to those of an upright conscience, finds its justification in the distinction between serving God and serving the political community. “Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s.” “We must obey God rather than men”: ."
In all this, I find nothing that says, “Take the law into your own hands,” or “Destroy someone else’s holy place.”
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TPJCatholic:
As a consequence of the respect and protection which must be ensured for the unborn child from the moment of conception, the law must provide appropriate penal sanctions for every deliberate violation of the child’s rights."
In other words, respect the law, and work for justice through the law, not through vigiliateism.
 
vern,

I never once said that we should take the law into our own hands. Man, you really are a tough case…🙂 You seem to derive pleasue in intentionally being contrary to everything I say. You remind me of my teenagers, so I have experience with such silliness.

Anyway, I was making an analogy to the Jews and the Temple Mount. If you recall, I stated that all illegal things are not immoral. The analogy I made is that if a person were to stop an abortionist from killing an unborn baby (providing the person did not harm the abortionist), that would be a moral good, yet it would also be illegal from a civil point of view. If you read the paragraphs I posted, you will see that God and the Church does NOT call us to blindly obey horrible, evil and immoral laws. In fact, our nation came into existence only after brave people were willing to say no to immoral acts and behaivors.

The Jews were given the Temple Mount by God, the Muslims now own the land; therefore, from a civil point of view the Muslims have all legal claims to the mount, yet from a spiritual point of view I can understand why the Jews are upset. This is not a few acres of isolated desert land, it is an extremely important and sacred place for the Jews, and it has been for thousands of years.

The obvious solution is for both groups to acknowledge the importance it is for both of their people.
 
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TPJCatholic:
Anna,
==> Not at all. It simply means that God made a Covenant with His Chosen People Israel (the Jews). Jesus came to save the house of Israel (the Jews), yet as we all know Israel (the Jews) rejected the New Covenant brought by Christ. .
Dear TPJ,

So now there are 2 covenants, right? One is for Jews and one is for the rest of us. And if each group is faithful to its covenant the members of each group will be saved. I’ve got it! 👍

One unanswered question: Again, if a covenant is an agreement between two parties, and one party renegs on its responsibility, is the covenant invalidated? :confused:

Submitted in love and respect,

Anna
 
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TPJCatholic:
The Jews were given the Temple Mount by God, the Muslims now own the land; therefore, from a civil point of view the Muslims have all legal claims to the mount, yet from a spiritual point of view I can understand why the Jews are upset. This is not a few acres of isolated desert land, it is an extremely important and sacred place for the Jews, and it has been for thousands of years. .
Actually, the identification of Mount Moriah as the site where Abraham was to sacrifice Issac dates to the time of David. The Muslim veneration of the same site goes right back to the time of Mohammed, and they have owned it longer than anyone else.
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TPJCatholic:
The obvious solution is for both groups to acknowledge the importance it is for both of their people.
It would be nice – but mass marches on the site are not likely to inspire the Muslims with confidence their rights will be respected.
 
Anna,

When God makes a covenant, it is unbreakable unless God Himself has placed conditions on the covenant.
 
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TPJCatholic:
Anna,

When God makes a covenant, it is unbreakable unless God Himself has placed conditions on the covenant.
Right! And that is just my question. Didn’t God ALWAYS place conditions on His covenant with the Hebrews/Iraelites/Jews?

So are there 2 covenants now, an Old one for the Jews and a New one for the rest of us? Or did violations of the “conditions” of the Old break the Old, thereby nullifying it?

Sorry to be so obtuse. 😦

Anna
 
Anna,

Yes, to a certain degree you are correct. I have asked several people to read Genesis 17 to see the Promises/Covenant God made to Abraham, let’s look at it here:

*Between you and me I will establish my covenant, and I will multiply you exceedingly." **When Abram prostrated himself, God continued to speak to him: **“My covenant with you is this: you are to become the father of a host of nations. **No longer shall you be called Abram; your name shall be Abraham, for I am making you the father of a host of nations. **I will render you exceedingly fertile; I will make nations of you; kings shall stem from you. **I will maintain my covenant with you and your descendants after you throughout the ages as an everlasting pact, to be your God and the God of your descendants after you. **I will give to you and to your descendants after you the land in which you are now staying, the whole land of Canaan, as a permanent possession; and I will be their God.” **God also said to Abraham: "On your part, you and your descendants after you must keep my covenant throughout the ages. **This is my covenant with you and your descendants after you that you must keep: every male among you shall be circumcised. **Circumcise the flesh of your foreskin, and that shall be the mark of the covenant between you and me. **Throughout the ages, every male among you, when he is eight days old, shall be circumcised, including houseborn slaves and those acquired with money from any foreigner who is not of your blood. *
**

So, we see from this passage that God did place a condition on His covenant, the Jews had to be circumcised and to this very day Jews are circumcised; therefore, the promises held by God in that covenant are still being met. In the context of this thread, the Jews have kept their part of the covenant, the males still become circumcised, so there is no reason to think that God would revoke a Promise that He called an everlasting covenant.

There are many forms of covenants, which are basically promises or contracts. Concerning the Old and New convenants, that speaks to the area of salvation…Jesus brought in a New Covenant, and through it we have learned that all people who will be saved, will be saved by Jesus Christ, that includes the Jews, Muslims, etc…the Old Covenant regarding salvation has passed away and given way to the New Covenant in Christ, even if current day Jews do not agree. However, God knew that the Jews would reject Jesus, and He made provision for allowing the Jews to be part of salvation despite their failure. We cannot know with complete certainty why, yet God has made it clear that the Jews (despite their rejection of the Savior) will have a place at His Banquet Table based on the Promises God has made to them as His Chosen People.

We should never give-up hope and prayer that the Jews will convert, yet they continue to hold first-son status in the Kingdom of God.

Did that answer your questions?
 
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TPJCatholic:
Anna,

However, God knew that the Jews would reject Jesus, and He made provision for allowing the Jews to be part of salvation despite their failure. We cannot know with complete certainty why, yet God has made it clear that the Jews (despite their rejection of the Savior) will have a place at His Banquet Table based on the Promises God has made to them as His Chosen People.

We should never give-up hope and prayer that the Jews will convert, yet they continue to hold first-son status in the Kingdom of God.

Did that answer your questions?
Dear TPJ,

Yes, this does help so much. I have a further question about Genesis 17 and God’s covenant with the Hebrews/Israelites/Jews, but for the moment would you please tell me this:

If I am a circumcised Jew (and circumcised on the eighth day, at that), may I say, “Once saved always saved,” in the manner of those Protestant fundamentalists who also say that?

If I am very happy in my present situation, believe that I am in a salvific covenantal relationship with God, and would only bring strife to my Jewish family by converting, what reason is there to convert?

Submitted in love and respect,

Anna
 
Anna,

*If I am a circumcised Jew (and circumcised on the eighth day, at that), may I say, “Once saved always saved,” in the manner of those Protestant fundamentalists who also say that?

*==> No. Circumcision for the Jews is like Baptism for Christians. It is the doorway into the Covenant. Yet, one must still obey and follow God throughout their lives if they desire salvation.

*If I am very happy in my present situation, believe that I am in a salvific covenantal relationship with God, and would only bring strife to my Jewish family by converting, what reason is there to convert?
*
==> The reason to convert is that Jesus is our Savior, He is God, and He will judge every soul no matter whether they are Jew or Gentile. Jews as individuals are no more gauranteed to be saved, then are Catholics–we all must work out our salvation with fear and trembling. If a Jew comes to believe that Jesus is God and Savior, then that Jew is bound to enter into the New Covenant with Christ. All Christians that know that the Catholic Church contains the fullness of truth are bound to enter the Church.

==> The Catholic Christiona faith represents the full and complete revelation from God for our salvation. There is no eternally safer place to be then in the Catholic faith–it has all of the sacraments and all of the tools to help lead us to God and Heaven.
 
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