10K Jews to the Temple Mount

[vern_humphrey]

TPJCatholic:

richardols,

I do not agree…you were referring to blacks in Africa, yet there are many nations in Africa, all of which have differing views of the world, etc…they are not a people…they are a race of humans no different then whites, etc…

On the other hand, Jews are a people, just as Catholics are a people, Muslims are a people, etc…

What difference does it make?

The Temple Mount (Mount Moriah) definitely belongs to the Muslims. The Dome of the Rock, their second holiest building, has been there since 692 or thereabouts – more than 1300 years. To take property from a religious trust and destroy a holy place is a violation of international law.

It is also likely to spark far more violence in the Middle East AND have a negative impact on the security of the United States.

 

[TPJCatholic]

vern,

I have conceded several times that according to civil law the Muslims have the mount…no denying that. My point all along is that the Jews make a valid point about the mount…it was originally their’s. I realize that if the Jews were take the mount, things would go very bad…I am just saying that I can understand both the legal/civil and spiritual arguments.
I wonder how native americans would feel if we took their land away, again?

 

[Steph700]

TPJCatholic:

vern,

I have conceded several times that according to civil law the Muslims have the mount…no denying that. My point all along is that the Jews make a valid point about the mount…it was originally their’s. I realize that if the Jews were take the mount, things would go very bad…I am just saying that I can understand both the legal/civil and spiritual arguments.
I wonder how native americans would feel if we took their land away, again?

But what about the people who had it before the Jews? It’s an endless battle. It wasn’t originally the Jews’.

 

[TPJCatholic]

Steph,

The land was given to the Jews by Almighty God.

 

[vern_humphrey]

TPJCatholic:

vern,

I have conceded several times that according to civil law the Muslims have the mount…no denying that. My point all along is that the Jews make a valid point about the mount…it was originally their’s. I realize that if the Jews were take the mount, things would go very bad…I am just saying that I can understand both the legal/civil and spiritual arguments.
I wonder how native americans would feel if we took their land away, again?

It was not originally theirs. They took it from earlier inhabitants.

They lost it to many invaders, from the Babylonians to the Romans. The Muslims have both a legal and a moral right to the Temple Mount.

 

[Cubsfan]

vern humphrey:

You’re right – but why split hairs?

The issue is justice in the modern world, not in the ancient world. The Muslims own the Temple Mount. It NOW includes their second-holiest building. To destroy that building would be an injustice.

It would also be seen as an example of American bigotry against Muslims – since it would be done with American money, American equipment, and at the sufferance of the American people. And THAT would not be good for our national security.

 

[TPJCatholic]

vern,

Please read Genesis chapter 17.

 

[vern_humphrey]

TPJCatholic:

vern,

Please read Genesis chapter 17.

What’s that got to do with the price of eggs?

Are we Christians not sons of Abraham? Do we not have the same claim ot the Temple Mount, based on our acceptance of Jesus as the Messiah?

And would it not be a crime if we exercised that claim, and destroyed the Dome of the Rock?

 

[TPJCatholic]

vern,

I have no way of knowing how you view the Bible, yet for me I see it and accept it as divinely revealed and infallible…the OT and NT.

Since I believe that, when I read in Genesis 17 that God makes an everlasting promise to the Jews, then I God at His Word. God alone called it everlasting, not me, not you, not the Jews–God did that.

IMO, too many Catholics take a very weak position regarding Sacred Scripture…

 

[TPJCatholic]

Vern,

God made the everlasting covenant with Israel…not me, not you, not the Jews–God did that. I take God at His Word.

 

[vern_humphrey]

TPJCatholic:

Vern,

God made the everlasting covenant with Israel…not me, not you, not the Jews–God did that. I take God at His Word.

Am I obliged as an article of my Catholic faith to support the destruction of the Dome of the Rock?

Do I as an American have an obligation to support an act that would have a serious impact on the national security of this nation?

And finally – do you deny that Christians are inheritors of that Covenant?

 

[Richardols]

TPJCatholic:

vern,

I have no way of knowing how you view the Bible, yet for me I see it and accept it as divinely revealed and infallible…the OT and NT.

Only as to faith and morals, TP.

 

[bapcathluth]

I would be very careful before saying “the Jews” want the Temple Mount. This is an extremist group and no Israeli Prime Minister, left or right-wing has ever laid claims on the Mount. Furthermore, an overwhelming majority of Israelis view these people who want to take over the Temple Mount as nutcases and frightening.

 

[TPJCatholic]

richardols,

I agree, only regarding faith and morals…and as I have said repeatly, the Muslims have the civil claim through ownership.

 

[TPJCatholic]

vern,

Am I obliged as an article of my Catholic faith to support the destruction of the Dome of the Rock?

==> Never said you were…never even implied it.

Do I as an American have an obligation to support an act that would have a serious impact on the national security of this nation?

==> Never said you did.

And finally – do you deny that Christians are inheritors of that Covenant?

==> Never said Christians don’t. Yet, your point brings up the obvious fact that Christians live under a new covenant and the Temple Mount really is quite meaningless to us, except from a historical point of view. In fact, Christians (imo) should not desire the rebuilding of the Temple at all.

==> I have said repeatly that my point is that the Jews have a valid spiritual point. That is all.

 

[Anna_Elizabeth]

TPJCatholic:

Anna,

I completely accept the curses that God brought down upon the Jews, His Chosen People. Why would you think I do not? I accept all of revealed truths. When God states that a given Promise is everlasting, then I believe it is everlasting.

Read Genesis 17.

Dear TPJCatholic,

I am so relieved to hear that! And I do thank you for your quick response. Would you be equally kind in clarifying just a few more things?

Since a covenant involves responsibilities of two parties, does the defection of one from the covenant nullify the whole thing?

You say, “This (the Temple business) all depends on whether you believe God gave the Jews the land, including the Temple Mount, or wherther that just has no bearing at all.”

Well, actually, God gave the Jews the land from the Great (Mediterranean) Sea all the way to the Euphrates and from Egypt to Lebanon. (If you want citations, I’ll provide.) Is this also an irrevocable gift? Do the Jews have a legitimate claim on all that land?

The land that David, Solomon and the tribes under Joshua put down belonged to a a variety of Canaanite groups, some of whom were never defeated, and even the Israelite control of the United Kingdom only lasted about 70years. Does the Jewish claim to that all land still exist irrevocably?

You say, “faithful Jews remain God’s Chosen People,” and again, “God’s covenant with the Jews remains.” I’m not interested in who holds the title “Chosen People,” but does this mean the God’s Promise of a New Covenant," as foretold in Jeremiah (31:31) and effected by Jesus Christ (“I make all things new.”) has not come to pass?

I thank you again for your initial response, and I do hope you will help me wih these things.

Submitted with love and respect,

Anna

 

[TPJCatholic]

Anna,

Is this also an irrevocable gift? Do the Jews have a legitimate claim on all that land?

==> Yes, from a spiritual perspective the Jews have been given that land in an everlasting covenant by God. From a current world civil law point of view, the Jews have no legal claim at all…yet I Have been speaking about what God gave the Jews…not what man wants to do with the earth.

Does the Jewish claim to that all land still exist irrevocably?

==> The answer lies in God’s Promise…what did God say? (keep in mind that I am speaking about the Jew’s divinely given gifts)

You say, “faithful Jews remain God’s Chosen People,” and again, “God’s covenant with the Jews remains.” I’m not interested in who holds the title “Chosen People,” but does this mean the God’s Promise of a New Covenant," as foretold in Jeremiah (31:31) and effected by Jesus Christ (“I make all things new.”) has not come to pass?

==> Not at all. It simply means that God made a Covenant with His Chosen People Israel (the Jews). Jesus came to save the house of Israel (the Jews), yet as we all know Israel (the Jews) rejected the New Covenant brought by Christ. What followed was an unspeakable blessing for all humanity, for Israel’s rejection lead to our adoption as sons and daughters of God through the blood of our Lord…the New Covenant in Jesus’ blood can only be entered upon belief in Jesus as God and Savior. However, the Old Covenant and the Law has not passed away…God’s Chosen People remain God’s Chosen People. In the end, their is a place for the Jews at God’s heavenly banquet…for God said so in the Bible.

 

[vern_humphrey]

TPJCatholic:

vern,

Am I obliged as an article of my Catholic faith to support the destruction of the Dome of the Rock?

==> Never said you were…never even implied it…

Then we should avoid the appearance of giving support to an illegal and immoral act.

Do I as an American have an obligation to support an act that would have a serious impact on the national security of this nation?

==> Never said you did.

Then we should avoid the appearance of giving support to an act innimical to our national security…

And finally – do you deny that Christians are inheritors of that Covenant?

==> Never said Christians don’t. Yet, your point brings up the obvious fact that Christians live under a new covenant and the Temple Mount really is quite meaningless to us, except from a historical point of view. In fact, Christians (imo) should not desire the rebuilding of the Temple at all. .

Then we should speak with disapproval of this provocation of the Muslims – an act which will NOT contribute to the Peace Process in the Middle East.

==> I have said repeatly that my point is that the Jews have a valid spiritual point. That is all.

How can an illegal and immoral act be a valid spiritual point?

 

[TPJCatholic]

vern,

Then we should avoid the appearance of giving support to an illegal and immoral act.

==> It depends on whether or not it is immoral…all acts that are illegal are not immoral.

How can an illegal and immoral act be a valid spiritual point?

==> It would illegal for me to stop an abortionists from aborting an unborn baby–yet spiritually it would me the right and moral thing to do.

 

[vern_humphrey]

TPJCatholic:

vern,

Then we should avoid the appearance of giving support to an illegal and immoral act.

==> It depends on whether or not it is immoral…all acts that are illegal are not immoral.

My church, Saint Mary’s in Batesville, Arkansas, was desecrated and burned by the Ku Klux Klan in the 1970s. I can tell you first hand that the destruction of someone else’s holy place is both immoral and sinful.

How can an illegal and immoral act be a valid spiritual point?

==> It would illegal for me to stop an abortionists from aborting an unborn baby–yet spiritually it would me the right and moral thing to do.

What paragraph of the Catechism did you find that in?