G
gilliam
Guest
Isn’t the Western Wall is not the western wall of the temple mount, it is the western wall of the Temple.
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R
Richardols
Guest
I believe that you are correct.
G
gilliam
Guest
It is the closest they can get to their Temple and that is why it is so important to them.
R
Richardols
Guest
To be sure.
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Steph700
Guest
I disagree. My protestant/fundamentalist upbringing taught me that the Jews were God’s Chosen, and that therefore as a “Christian nation” the US should be supporting Israel. This is not true!! Ask any non-American Catholic/Christian and they will tell you: we are under no obligation to promote the interests of Israel. In fact, most non-American Catholics are supportive of the Palestinians. This is something that I wasn’t taught growing up… I am afraid that our American political background (which wants to retain control of Israel in order to “subdue” the Muslim middle east) has brainwashed American Christians into believing we must support Israel, that this is part of bringing in the rapture.
Listen, at the evangelical college I went to (just a few years ago) one of my roommates honestly thought that Jews automatically went to Heaven because of their heritage. Numerous people at this evangelical protestant school believed the same. Luckily by this point in my life I had studied abroad, made friends with wonderful orthodox Christians from around the world, and I was able to explain to her that Jews are not automatically saved b/c Abraham was their great-great-great-great… grandfather. But if she had raised the point with me just a few years ago- when i was in highschool and still in the tight grip of pre-millenial disp.- I wouldn’t have known how to argue her assertion. Now, that is scary. And that is the state that America is in right now.
I don’t have a problem recognizing the fact that God used the Jewish people for many many years, I don’t have a problem acknowledging them as human beings on the same level as myself, I don’t have a problem with the Church striving to live in harmony with Judaism (or with Islam for that matter!). What I do have a problem with is supporting Israel. I was brainwashed into doing that for the first 20 years of my life and I will never do it again. It’s about politics and power, not about a group of people that God has ordered must be kept on the Holy Land. Once I used to pray that the Holy Land would be kept intact and given to the Jews, now I long for the day when America and Israel will acknowledge their wrong doing towards the Palestinians and make things right. It may never happen, but I hope for it.
M
Mijoy2
Guest
I highly recommend reading “Salvation is from the Jews” by Roy Schoemann
T
TPJCatholic
Guest
Steph,
I submit this respectfully, it seems you are the person who has been somehow brainwashed. Israel as a nation is not the key element, Israel as the home for 5,000,000 Jews is what is key. Whether you want to deal with reality or not, the Jews remain God’s Chosen People, that cannot be undone, God’s Promises are not irrevocable by anyone but God and He has never taken away His promise. The Jews hold a special place as first born sons and daughters of God…we have the blessing of being adopted children of God because of the Jews failure to recognize Jesus for who He is–we have been grafted into the tree, we are not the original branches and we should be most grateful that God has given us this ability to be adopted children of His. However, we must also never bash God’s Chosen People, for they have their rightful place at God’s table. Attitudes likes yours could easily lead people to hold deeply anti-semetic feelings. The Jews are our older brothers and sisters in faith–we should love them as God loves them, for God’s covenant with the Jews remains.
During daily Mass today, the first reading was well timed and appropriate, as follows:
*"When Abram prostrated himself, God continued to speak to him: **“My covenant with you is this: you are to become the father of a host of nations. **No longer shall you be called Abram; your name shall be Abraham, for I am making you the father of a host of nations. **I will render you exceedingly fertile; I will make nations of you; kings shall stem from you. **I will maintain my covenant with you and your descendants after you throughout the ages as an everlasting pact, to be your God and the God of your descendants after you. **I will give to you and to your descendants after you the land in which you are now staying, the whole land of Canaan, as a permanent possession; and I will be their God.” *God also said to Abraham: "On your part, you and your descendants after you must keep my covenant throughout the ages. [Genesis 17:3-9]
It is wonderful that you are now Catholic, and that you have rejected Protestant theology…welcome to the fullness of God’s revelation found only in the Catholic faith. However, do not for a minute think that Protestants have everything wrong, and do not get paranoid thinking there is some silly brainwashing scheme in this nation. Israel does NOT have a civil legal claim to the Temple Mount (that is obvious because possession is the law in almost all cases); however, the Jews of Israel most certainly have a very strong spiritual claim to the Temple Mount, for God gave it to them as a permanent possesion. Those who bless Israel (the Jews, God’s Chosen People) will be blessed.
**
I submit this respectfully, it seems you are the person who has been somehow brainwashed. Israel as a nation is not the key element, Israel as the home for 5,000,000 Jews is what is key. Whether you want to deal with reality or not, the Jews remain God’s Chosen People, that cannot be undone, God’s Promises are not irrevocable by anyone but God and He has never taken away His promise. The Jews hold a special place as first born sons and daughters of God…we have the blessing of being adopted children of God because of the Jews failure to recognize Jesus for who He is–we have been grafted into the tree, we are not the original branches and we should be most grateful that God has given us this ability to be adopted children of His. However, we must also never bash God’s Chosen People, for they have their rightful place at God’s table. Attitudes likes yours could easily lead people to hold deeply anti-semetic feelings. The Jews are our older brothers and sisters in faith–we should love them as God loves them, for God’s covenant with the Jews remains.
During daily Mass today, the first reading was well timed and appropriate, as follows:
*"When Abram prostrated himself, God continued to speak to him: **“My covenant with you is this: you are to become the father of a host of nations. **No longer shall you be called Abram; your name shall be Abraham, for I am making you the father of a host of nations. **I will render you exceedingly fertile; I will make nations of you; kings shall stem from you. **I will maintain my covenant with you and your descendants after you throughout the ages as an everlasting pact, to be your God and the God of your descendants after you. **I will give to you and to your descendants after you the land in which you are now staying, the whole land of Canaan, as a permanent possession; and I will be their God.” *God also said to Abraham: "On your part, you and your descendants after you must keep my covenant throughout the ages. [Genesis 17:3-9]
It is wonderful that you are now Catholic, and that you have rejected Protestant theology…welcome to the fullness of God’s revelation found only in the Catholic faith. However, do not for a minute think that Protestants have everything wrong, and do not get paranoid thinking there is some silly brainwashing scheme in this nation. Israel does NOT have a civil legal claim to the Temple Mount (that is obvious because possession is the law in almost all cases); however, the Jews of Israel most certainly have a very strong spiritual claim to the Temple Mount, for God gave it to them as a permanent possesion. Those who bless Israel (the Jews, God’s Chosen People) will be blessed.
**
S
Steph700
Guest
I did a quick search online for this book and this author. Interestingly, I’ve landed myself on
- Conservative political websites promoting Reagan
- Pro-America/Pro-Israel websites
- Angry Jews who were offended by this book websites
- LEFT BEHIND series websites! (if that isn’t a red flag I don’t know what is)
I appreciate the recommendation though. If you have a recommendation for an author who isn’t swayed by American foreign policy promoting Israel I would be more inclined to read it.
T
TPJCatholic
Guest
Steph,
As a faithful Catholic, I have read that book and it is very much worth reading…I highly recommend you reconsider.
As a faithful Catholic, I have read that book and it is very much worth reading…I highly recommend you reconsider.
S
Steph700
Guest
I appreciate your concern over my being “brainwashed”. However, I challenge you to get to know some Christians/Catholics who were not brought up in the pro-Israel political climate in the States. Ask them the questions you’ve put before me (all of which are good questions). I can almost guarentee you, they will not support Israel.
If this is an issue that has 2 very distict interpretations- one if you were raised in an American pro-Israel environment, one if you were raised anywhere else in the world- the cause of the differences must lie in where one was raised. As I said before, this is the thing that keeps me up at night wondering… why do American Catholics/Christians have such a different spin on this than the rest of the world? Could it be political influence from our pulpits?
I do believe God had maintained his covenenant to Abraham… look at the millions/billions of people impacted by his most important decendant- Jesus! We have become God’s Chosen through Christ- through the lineage of Abraham. Thank God for that!
S
Steph700
Guest
If someone could find me a Catholic author who isn’t swayed by American foreign policy promoting Israel, I would be more than willing to check it out.
T
TPJCatholic
Guest
Steph,
I am sorry, respectfully you are just flat wrong, we are NOT God’s Chosen People, we are God’s adopted children–that is a Biblical and Church fact. The Jews remain God’s Chosen People, you can be in denial about that all you want.
This issue has nothing at all to do with America, these are Biblical and Church truths that have existed for thousands of years, long before America even existed. I do not care about what “other” Catholics think, considering only something like 1/5 of all Catholics actually are faithful (that means 75-80% of all Catholics in this nation do not know their faith, so why should I take their views seriously?).
You deny Scripture, Tradition, the Magisterium, the Popes, and the Catechism; however, I will continue to rely upon the full faith, and in that fullness we know that the Jews remain God’s Chosen People–while we have the joy of being God’s adopted children. It seems that being an adopted child of God is NOT good enough for you, you appear to be demanding to be God’s Chosen person.
I mean no disrespect with this message, it is just that I have posted Scripture and Catechism references, and so have several other people…you have ignored all that and you stand stubbornly in your view–there is really little more one can add.
I am sorry, respectfully you are just flat wrong, we are NOT God’s Chosen People, we are God’s adopted children–that is a Biblical and Church fact. The Jews remain God’s Chosen People, you can be in denial about that all you want.
This issue has nothing at all to do with America, these are Biblical and Church truths that have existed for thousands of years, long before America even existed. I do not care about what “other” Catholics think, considering only something like 1/5 of all Catholics actually are faithful (that means 75-80% of all Catholics in this nation do not know their faith, so why should I take their views seriously?).
You deny Scripture, Tradition, the Magisterium, the Popes, and the Catechism; however, I will continue to rely upon the full faith, and in that fullness we know that the Jews remain God’s Chosen People–while we have the joy of being God’s adopted children. It seems that being an adopted child of God is NOT good enough for you, you appear to be demanding to be God’s Chosen person.
I mean no disrespect with this message, it is just that I have posted Scripture and Catechism references, and so have several other people…you have ignored all that and you stand stubbornly in your view–there is really little more one can add.
T
TPJCatholic
Guest
Steph,
Btw, it is not a matter of authors being swayed by American policies towards Israel, it is about authors doing their homework and coming to proper conclusions in light of revealed truth. America is not the enemy.
Btw, it is not a matter of authors being swayed by American policies towards Israel, it is about authors doing their homework and coming to proper conclusions in light of revealed truth. America is not the enemy.
R
Richardols
Guest
You cited Romans 11:11-24. You have done well. But, note that the Jews were broken off because of unbelief. God did not spare the natural branches (the Jews) and He will not spare those grafted in because of faith if they do not remain in His kindness.
The Jews are out - but, they can be grafted back in, though, if they do not remain in their unbelief.
T
TPJCatholic
Guest
richardols,
The Jews are out in terms of the New Covenant through Christ, the only way they can be saved is through Christ. However, they are NOT out in terms of God’s salvific plans for them, albeit they have a much harder path to take considering they have rejected the Grace offered to them under the New Covenant in Christ. It is a modern mistake to think the Jews are “out,” it is similar to saying that all Jews are guilty of killing Christ.
God never revoked His Promise, and faithful Jews remain God’s Chosen people.
The Jews are out in terms of the New Covenant through Christ, the only way they can be saved is through Christ. However, they are NOT out in terms of God’s salvific plans for them, albeit they have a much harder path to take considering they have rejected the Grace offered to them under the New Covenant in Christ. It is a modern mistake to think the Jews are “out,” it is similar to saying that all Jews are guilty of killing Christ.
God never revoked His Promise, and faithful Jews remain God’s Chosen people.
T
TPJCatholic
Guest
People need to remember that Jesus’ original mission was to save the house of Israel…not the Gentiles (us). We have the enormous blessing of being adopted into God’s family, yet the Jews who are faithful remain God’s Chosen People. It goes without saying that be it the Jews or Christians, people must be faithful to God if they desire salvation.
S
Steph700
Guest
I think you should care what Catholics around the world believe. One of the key reasons I became Catholic was because it’s not a local denomination… it isn’t even a really really big branch of Christianity based in one country (think the Anglican Church). It is the universal Church, the big mama of them all. And because of that I am keenly interested to know what Catholics believe and teach throughout the world. Americans do not have a monopoly on Catholicism, and that is the attitude I see expressed on these boards every single day. While I can see a reverence for the Jews in the catechism, I do not see any actual support for Israel- not the type of support you would get from reading books from the Left Behind Series. I saw a book at my local Christian bookstore just the other day that gave Catholic arguments against this type of mentality. What the catechism says, what the Bible says, the Pope, etc are all extremely important to me and if I saw a concrete case to be pro-Israel I would be so. I just don’t see it.
I have appreciated the scripture references and the quotes from the catechism you and others have posted. I acknowledge the fact that in salvation history the Jewish people have played a very very important role. But the fact is that when push came to shove God followed through on all of the promises He gave to the Jews and they rejected Christ. The temple fell, their sacrificial system was obliterated. Modern day Judiasm is like an old spinster who missed her chance to get married. The party’s over! Sad but true.
Nobody seems to be able to answer my question regarding American Christians view of policy towards Israel vs. the rest of the world’s view on Israel. You have to admit that it’s strange that this obsession with Israel is only found in America. It certainly can’t be b/c America somehow knows better… God hasn’t put his hand on our nation and said “Ok, just you guys are gonna know the truth about Israel.” The fact of the matter is, I am still waiting to find sources from non-American Christians who hold to the pro-Israel movement. We shouldn’t be so arrogant to believe that just because American Catholics (and only some of them at that) say one thing about the Jews and Israel that the rest of the world is wrong. It think it’s extremely dangerous to take the interpretations of a few people- people who are all from a country who just so happens to support Israel for selfish reasons- and not seriously consider why the majority of the Catholic world disagrees. The people I have met who are against pro-Israel policies have been very Orthodox. This discussion has nothing to do with who’s faithful and who isn’t.
G
Ghosty
Guest
Steph700: For what it’s worth, I believe that the creation of Israel was a mistake, and I’m firmly anti-Zionist. I also believe that the Jews ARE God’s Chosen People. I don’t believe that Israel can/should be dismantled now, as social and political realities prevent such “historical rewriting”, but I do stand against the way it was created and many of its policies today.
This just doesn’t change my belief that the Jews are a special people, set apart by their national Covenant with God. They continue to be God’s children in a very unique way, and we are fortunate to be adopted in as full members of the family.
I just don’t believe that Israel was a good idea, nor do I believe that the modern State of Israel is a part of the Messianic plan. I DO believe that the Jews have a unique place in the Messianic plan, both historically and today.
This just doesn’t change my belief that the Jews are a special people, set apart by their national Covenant with God. They continue to be God’s children in a very unique way, and we are fortunate to be adopted in as full members of the family.
I just don’t believe that Israel was a good idea, nor do I believe that the modern State of Israel is a part of the Messianic plan. I DO believe that the Jews have a unique place in the Messianic plan, both historically and today.
R
Richardols
Guest
That last IS true if you are a fundamentalist evangelical! American Evangelicals have been extremely successful in convincing much of America that there are few things as important as unquestioning support of Israel. They have organizations specifically aimed at Evangelical-Israeli cooperation. Evangelicals support the movement to have all Jews return to Israel. They question nothing the IDF does against the Palestinians.
And, it all centers around their pre-millenial eschatological views. If they can help bring on the Millenium, then they must.
S
Steph700
Guest
Yep, this is exactly what i was taught growing up. I even read a historical fiction series called “The Zion Chronicles” when I was in junior high. This series of course could only be found in Evangelical bookstores. So since deciding to convert to Catholicism you can imagine my shock in realizing that pre-millenial dispensation is alive and well among many American Catholics. I don’t get it! I just don’t get it.
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