10K Jews to the Temple Mount

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steph,

It is simply not Biblical to say that the Jews are no longer God’s chosen people–God NEVER revoked His Promises to them and He still claims tham as His own. We, as Christians, remain the adopted childen of God, and in the end there will be an enormous conversion of Jews to Christ…yet they remain God’s chosen people.
 
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TPJCatholic:
richardols,

I certainly hope you are aware that the Vatican being taken over, and the Pope being forced to flee, is well establised in prophetic private revelation…we do not have to believe it, but it most certainly is NOT a fantasy of any kind and may very well happen as we head into endtimes. It was an honest question (intended to invoke further conversation), to which you utterly refused to give a straight answer.
TPJ,
You will never receive a straight answer from richardols. The best thing to do is just ignore him.
 
vern humphrey:
The early possessors of the Temple Mount were Cannanites – and their descendants still survive.

David took Jerusalem from the Jebusites ca 1000 BCE. Solomon built the Temple about 953 BCE. After Solomon’s time, the Jewish state split into two kingdoms, Israel in the north with its capital at Samaria, and Judah in the south, with its capital at Jerusalem. The Assyrians took Samaria about 750 BCE and marched the inhabitants off into captivity (these are the "Lost Tribes of Israel.)

The Babylonians took Jerusalem about 586 BCE. They destroyed the Temple, took the Ark of the Covenant, and marched the people of Judah off into captivity (this is the “Babylonian Captivity.”) About 60 years later, Cyrus the Great of Persia conquered Babylong and allowed the Jews to return to Jerusalem, under Zerubbabel, who built a second temple (about 515 BCE.) This temple was “so small and mean that those who had seen Solomon’s Temple wept.”

Zerubbabel’s Temple was razed by Herod the Great in 19 BCE. Herod built a new Temple, following the biblical description of Solomon’s Temple. It is Herod’s Temple where the Holy Family sacrificed.

In the 60s of the Current Era, there was a Jewish revolt. The Roman General Titus (later Emperor) stormed Jerusalem and destroyed Herod’s Temple in 70 CE.

There was a second revolt in 133 CE. The Emperor Hadrian expelled the Jews (note: It was the Romans, NOT the Muslims – who didn’t yet exist – who expelled the Jews). Hadrian build a Roman city, Aleia Capitolina, on the ruins of Jerusalem. He also build a temple to Jupiter.

Mount Moriah today is larger than it was in Jesus’t time – and, politically incorrect as it may be, the Western Wall (the Wailing Wall) may be the reason. Some athorities believe this wall (which is a retaining wall, not part of any temple) was built when Hadrian enlarged Mount Moriah fror his temple.

St. Helena had her son, Constentine, restore the name Jerusalem. He did not lift the provision against the Jews returning, however, and Jews were not allowed back until 632, when the Muslims took Jerusalem (note: It was the Muslims, not the Christians, who allowed the Jews to return.)

Muslims believe that Mohammed ascended to heaven from the Rock on Mount Moriah (the rock on which Abraham was supposed to sacrifice Issac.) The Dome of the Rock (the building with the gold-plated dome) was built on Mount Moriah about 690 CE.

When the Crusaders took Jerusalem, they drove the Jews and Muslims out of the city and massacred them under the walls. Jews were not allowed to return until the Mamlukes regained control of the area about 1260 CE (note: It was Catholics who drove out and massacred the Jews this time, it was Muslims who allowed them to return once more.)

The Dome of the Rock has been on Mount Moriah longer than Soloman’s Temple, Zerubbabel’s Temple, and Herod’s Temple combined. To destroy it would be a crime of great magnitude.
Dear vern humphrey,

This is such a great review of the history of the current “Temple Mount,” that I am going to print it out and use it whenever the subject comes up. 👍 (I will, of course, replace your Jewish letters for BC and AD with those we Christians have used for centuries in honor of Our Lord.)

I only hope that all these posters will read and digest what you have said. The danger is that they will be put off either by the length of the essay or by their deep desire to argue with each other; however, for anyone who really wants to get with the program, this info is absolutely necessary.

The only thing I would add (and it is of secondary importance), is a note for those who believe God’s gift of land to the Israelites is definitive: The land given greatly expands as one works one’s way through the Torah. Eventually, the “gift” extends from the Great Sea (read Mediterranean), to the Euphrates. Want to go there? :rolleyes:

Many thanks and God bless, 🙂

Anna

PS One more thing: I believe that the Babylonians did not take the Arc of the Covenant. Rumour has it that Jeremiah took it into Egypt. :confused:
 
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TPJCatholic:
steph,

It is simply not Biblical to say that the Jews are no longer God’s chosen people–God NEVER revoked His Promises to them and He still claims tham as His own. We, as Christians, remain the adopted childen of God, and in the end there will be an enormous conversion of Jews to Christ…yet they remain God’s chosen people.
As I said before, the Jews were God’s Chosen people. I believe God has fulfilled the promises He gave them as a people group (that Abraham’s decendents would be a great nation, that Jesus would be a Son of David, etc). However, at the end of the day the Jews rejected Jesus. This doesn’t mean that Jews as individuals cannot be saved- I believe they definitely can. But as a people group they are no longer favored by God over any other people group. They do not have rights to the land in Palestine- at least not based off the Bible. Any claim they take to the land is outside the realm of our faith and is in the realm of politics.

I’m not really sure what you are referring to when you say that in the end an enormous number of Jews will convert to Christ. Is this in the Bible somewhere or the catechism? I am just asking b/c I am not familiar with this.

My point is that throughout my life I was greatly mislead by Christians who claimed that Israel was special as a nation- Chosen by God and therefore it should be supported by us as Christian Americans. Unfortunately many people in America still believe this falacy- based off what they were taught as fundamentalists or based off what certain political figures wanted us to believe. The truth is that the Bible holds many promises for God’s people, but my interpretation is that God’s people are Christians NOT Jews and specifically not members of a certain nation state- be it America or Israel. I hope this clarifies my position.
 
Steph700: I recommend reading Romans, chapter 11 in its entirety. It pretty much lays out the place of the Jews outside of Christianity, their role, and their future with the Church.
 
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Steph700:
My point is that throughout my life I was greatly mislead by Christians who claimed that Israel was special as a nation- Chosen by God and therefore it should be supported by us as Christian Americans. Unfortunately many people in America still believe this falacy- based off what they were taught as fundamentalists or based off what certain political figures wanted us to believe. The truth is that the Bible holds many promises for God’s people, but my interpretation is that God’s people are Christians NOT Jews and specifically not members of a certain nation state- be it America or Israel. I hope this clarifies my position.
839 The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People. When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People,326 "the first to hear the Word of God."327 The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God’s revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews “belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ”,328 "for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable."329 [840](javascript:openWindow(‘cr/840.htm’)😉 And when one considers the future, God’s People of the Old Covenant and the new People of God tend towards similar goals: expectation of the coming (or the return) of the Messiah. But one awaits the return of the Messiah who died and rose from the dead and is recognized as Lord and Son of God; the other awaits the coming of a Messiah, whose features remain hidden till the end of time; and the latter waiting is accompanied by the drama of not knowing or of misunderstanding Christ Jesus.

Catholic Catechsm
 
vern humphrey:
The Dome of the Rock has been on Mount Moriah longer than Soloman’s Temple, Zerubbabel’s Temple, and Herod’s Temple combined. To destroy it would be a crime of great magnitude.
I remember that the Lord promised the Jews a portion of land in the OT. If this Dome of the rock is on the Jews land promised by God I would figure they are justified to call in an air strike if they so choose.

On a side note, what does the Catholic Church say about the current location of the Arc of the covenant or it’s existence on Earth at this time?

-D
 
On February 5, 2004, in a meeting with Jewish representatives at the Vatican, Pope John Paul II, noted: “As we now approach the 40th anniversary of this historic document (Nostra Aetate, the Second Vatican Council’s condemnation of anti-Semitism), there is regrettably a great need to repeat our utter condemnation of racism and anti-Semitism.” In order to re-affirm the Church’s teaching on its relationship to the Jews and its stand against anti-Semitism, the BCEIA has decided to re-publish its 1988 Criteria for the Evaluation of Dramatizations of the Passion, and to do so in a volume which gathers together key documents of Catholic teaching over more than forty years. The volume is entitled The Bible, the Jews and the Death of Jesus: A Collection of Catholic Documents. The documents included clarify Catholic teaching on the interpretation of Scripture, Catholic understanding regarding a proper presentation of the Passion and Death of Christ, and the Church’s ongoing condemnation of the sin of anti-Semitism.

Two major developments within the Church awakened and fostered a new understanding of the relationship between the Church and its roots in Judaism. The first was the biblical movement, which led the Church to a fuller understanding of the Gospels through the analysis of literary and historical forms. This movement, launched in 1943 by Pope Pius XII, with the publication of his encyclical Divino Afflante Spiritu, was fully incorporated into the teaching of the Church with the Dogmatic Constitution on Revelation, Dei Verbum, in November, 1965 (especially nos. 3 and 12). The second development was one that occurred in the Second Vatican Council, where the Church formulated its commitment to re-examining its relationship with the Jewish people. This re-examination began with a reflection on the ongoing nature of God’s covenant with the Jewish people and its implications for all of Catholic theology.

see:
Bishops’ Committee Issues Collection of Documents on `The Bible, The Jews, and The Death of Jesus’
 
gilliam said:
839 The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People. When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People,326 "the first to hear the Word of God."327 The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God’s revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews “belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ”,328 "for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable."329 840 And when one considers the future, God’s People of the Old Covenant and the new People of God tend towards similar goals: expectation of the coming (or the return) of the Messiah. But one awaits the return of the Messiah who died and rose from the dead and is recognized as Lord and Son of God; the other awaits the coming of a Messiah, whose features remain hidden till the end of time; and the latter waiting is accompanied by the drama of not knowing or of misunderstanding Christ Jesus.

Catholic Catechsm

I appreciate the quote, but it doesn’t change my belief that Israel does not deserve in any shape or form support over Palestine by Christians/Catholics. The Jews were EXTREMELY important in the past, but the Church is God’s people now. We are under no obligation to support Israel politcally.

We have a link to the members of God’s Chosen of the Old Covenant, this I will not argue. The God’s Chosen of the New Covenant is a whole other story! (thank God!)
 
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Steph700:
I appreciate the quote, but it doesn’t change my belief that Israel does not deserve in any shape or form support over Palestine by Christians/Catholics.
I’ve said it before and I will say it again. If Palestine chooses the course of peace and abandons terrorism, then I say treat both parties equally and let them form a bond of peaceful coexistance.

The ball really is in the PA’s court.

But note that the Temple Mount is not the Palestinians (or the Isralies) to own or not own. Any more than the Holy Sepulcher belongs to the Vatican or the Eastern Church.
 
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Steph700:
I appreciate the quote, but it doesn’t change my belief that Israel does not deserve in any shape or form support over Palestine by Christians/Catholics. The Jews were EXTREMELY important in the past, but the Church is God’s people now. We are under no obligation to support Israel politcally.

We have a link to the members of God’s Chosen of the Old Covenant, this I will not argue. The God’s Chosen of the New Covenant is a whole other story! (thank God!)
This is an interesting issue,

If the covenant of God with the Jews is still valid then why would I not back that which my God backs? I am a Christian under the new covenant but the promises of the old covenant are still valid. I will bless them that bless thee and curse them that curse thee comes to mind. I think I will bless them 🙂 . Am I off base here?

-D
 
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Darrel:
If the covenant of God with the Jews is still valid
The Church teaches that it is still valid. We have no power to break that Covenant, and Jesus did not say the covenant was broken for the Jews.
 
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Darrel:
This is an interesting issue,

If the covenant of God with the Jews is still valid then why would I not back that which my God backs? I am a Christian under the new covenant but the promises of the old covenant are still valid. I will bless them that bless thee and curse them that curse thee comes to mind. I think I will bless them 🙂 . Am I off base here?

-D
It’s a good question and a good point. I’m not an expert on covenants- a lot of what I’ve learned about the subject matter has come from reading Scott Hahn. I think the Old Covenant that God made with the Jews has been fulfilled and the New Covenant- through Christ- applies to all believers throughout the world. God did bless the Jews, our savior was of Jewish decent. But the New superceeds the old, much as the sermon on the mount and the beatitudes goes above and beyond the 10 Commandments.

Someone correct me if I’m wrong.

Whether or not the Jews will be saved in the end is beyond my scope of understanding… I think we are saved individually, not based off our nationality/decent. The big question- the thing that bothers me most- is whether or not we (as Americans) are under any obligation to support Israel as a nation state. My logic tells me “no”, my time spent abroad tells me “no”, my interaction with Catholics in other countries tells me “no”. My childhood spent will fundamentalist Christians told me “yes”. So this is a question that keeps me up at night… why to American Christians think they know best when it comes to relations with/support of Israel when the rest of the world has come to a completely different conclusion?
 
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Steph700:
It’s a good question and a good point. I’m not an expert on covenants- a lot of what I’ve learned about the subject matter has come from reading Scott Hahn. I think the Old Covenant that God made with the Jews has been fulfilled and the New Covenant- through Christ- applies to all believers throughout the world. God did bless the Jews, our savior was of Jewish decent. But the New superceeds the old, much as the sermon on the mount and the beatitudes goes above and beyond the 10 Commandments.

Someone correct me if I’m wrong.

Whether or not the Jews will be saved in the end is beyond my scope of understanding… I think we are saved individually, not based off our nationality/decent. The big question- the thing that bothers me most- is whether or not we (as Americans) are under any obligation to support Israel as a nation state. My logic tells me “no”, my time spent abroad tells me “no”, my interaction with Catholics in other countries tells me “no”. My childhood spent will fundamentalist Christians told me “yes”. So this is a question that keeps me up at night… why to American Christians think they know best when it comes to relations with/support of Israel when the rest of the world has come to a completely different conclusion?
I’m sure that some of what I am saying here is a result of my fundamentalist background. The thing I see here is that if this covenant is still in effect then it operates in manor that is very based in the Law. Given that fact it is correct to assume that we should support that which God has endorsed and also support that which God has given us in Christ’s eternal promise of Salvation. We worship as we are told and as we are instructed by Christ. The Jews wait for there messiah and the promises of God to them can not be broken if they are made by God. So in essence the truths must exist simultaneously.

-D
 
Nostra Aetate: As this sacred Synod searches into the mystery of the Church, it recalls the spiritual bond linking the people of the New Covenant with Abraham’s stock. For the Church of Christ acknowledges that, according to the mystery of God’s saving design, the beginnings of her faith and her election are already found among the patriarchs, Moses, and the prophets. She professes that all who believe in Christ, Abraham’s sons according to faith (cf. Gal. 3:7), are included in the same patriarch’s call, and likewise that the salvation of the Church was mystically foreshadowed by the Chosen People’s exodus from the land of bondage. The Church, therefore, cannot forget that she received the revelation of the Old Testament through the people with whom God in his inexpressible mercy deigned to establish the Ancient Covenant. Nor can she forget that she draws sustenance from the root of that good olive tree onto which have been grafted the wild olive branches of the Gentiles (cf. Rom. 11:17-24). Indeed, the Church believes that by his cross Christ, our Peace, reconciled Jew and Gentile, making them both one in himself (cf. Eph. 2:14-16). The Jews still remain most dear to God because of their fathers, for he does not repent of the gifts he makes nor of the calls he issues (cf. Rom. 11:28-29). In company with the prophets and the same Apostle (Paul), the Church awaits that day, known to God alone, on which all peoples will address the Lord in a single voice and “serve him with one accord” (Zeph. 3:9; cf. Is. 66:23; Ps. 65:4; Rom. 11:11-32). Since the spiritual patrimony common to Christians and Jews is thus so great, this sacred Synod wishes to foster and recommend that mutual understanding and respect which is the fruit above all of biblical and theological studies, and of brotherly dialogues.

from: NOSTRA AETATE

The Jews are still God’s chosen people and His promises (covenent) to them still stand. The good news is that through Jesus Christ, we all can be saved.
 
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Darrel:
I’m sure that some of what I am saying here is a result of my fundamentalist background. The thing I see here is that if this covenant is still in effect then it operates in manor that is very based in the Law. Given that fact it is correct to assume that we should support that which God has endorsed and also support that which God has given us in Christ’s eternal promise of Salvation. We worship as we are told and as we are instructed by Christ. The Jews wait for there messiah and the promises of God to them can not be broken if they are made by God. So in essence the truths must exist simultaneously.

-D
yep.
 
steph,

Do not bash your former protestant teachings so completely–they are correct about the Jews–the Jews remain in a covenantal relationship with God–they are the chosen people, that is irrevocable…God always keeps His promises. Christians are aopted children of God.
 
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gilliam:
Have you asked yourself why?
Why should I ask myself? Do you think that I am the source of all knowledge for myself?

I rely on fact, and the fact is that according to the Talmud, the Temple Mount is the same as Mount Moriah where Abraham fulfilled God’s test to see if he would be willing to sacrifice his son Issac. The Moslems believe that the sacrifice was supposed to be Abraham’s son Ismael.

So for the Jews, this place where Abraham obeyed God is the most sacred in Judaism, the most noteworthy place of worship of God for the Jews.
 
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Steph700:
So this is a question that keeps me up at night… why to American Christians think they know best when it comes to relations with/support of Israel when the rest of the world has come to a completely different conclusion?
It has to do with the premillenial eschatological doctrines of fundamentalists. Support of the State of Israel is necessary to see the Millenium be fulfilled.
 
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