10K Jews to the Temple Mount

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Steph700:
So since deciding to convert to Catholicism you can imagine my shock in realizing that pre-millenial dispensation is alive and well among many American Catholics. I don’t get it! I just don’t get it.
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Me, neither. I’ve spoken to Catholics who sounded exactly like Evangelicals when it came to eschatology. They aren’t aware that the Catholic Church (together with the Orthodox Church and the Reformation Protestant churches) are all amillenial.

Some Catholics even wonder about the status of Catholics when the Rapture comes! Arrgh!!!
 
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Steph700:
If someone could find me a Catholic author who isn’t swayed by American foreign policy promoting Israel, I would be more than willing to check it out.
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Or, here is a book that is exactly the opposite:

Whose Land? Whose Promise? by Gary M. Burge, published by The Pilgrim Press. The subtitle is" What Christians Are Not Being Told About Israel and the Palestinians.

Professor Burge is professor of New Testament at Wheaton College and Graduate School in Wheaton, Ill. He is also president of Evangelicals for Middle East Understanding. The book was published in 2003.

I REALLY think you will enjoy this book, Steph.

God bless,

Anna
 
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TPJCatholic:
God’s Promises are not irrevocable by anyone but God and He has never taken away His promise.
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Please, God’s blessings to the Israelites were always balanced with equivalent curses. (“IF you do such and such, this I will give you/IF you fail to do such and such, this will be the curse upon you.”) Why do you accept the non-irrevocable nature of God’s blessings, but not of His curses?

Please answer me.

Thanks,

Anna
 
Steph,

I think you should care what Catholics around the world believe.

==> No, I should care, as should all Catholics, about what the Church has declared to be true. Lay Catholics, even Priests and Bishops, can from time-to-time be flat out wrong. I lean on the well established truths of the faith–not on personal opinions.

*One of the key reasons I became Catholic was because it’s not a local denomination… *

==> And it is wonderful to know you are Catholic, welcome and congratulations. 🙂

Americans do not have a monopoly on Catholicism,

==> We agree on this point completely–in fact I think the Church in America needs much help and prayer.

*While I can see a reverence for the Jews in the catechism, I do not see any actual support for Israel- not the type of support you would get from reading books from the Left Behind Series. *

==> Again, we agree. The Left Behind series and “rags” like it are horrible, and they do nothing but propogate falsehoods and deceptions and they cause people to get worked-up into a endtimes frenzies over false teachings.

…what the Bible says, the Pope, etc are all extremely important to me and if I saw a concrete case to be pro-Israel I would be so. I just don’t see it.

==> IMO, Catholics should not just think that the Bible and the Pope are extremely important, they are in many ways foundational to our faith. I feel that the scripture references, statements from the Popes, and Catechism references have shown a consistently strong support for the Jews–not Israel. If you re-read my messages, I have espoused the fact that we should strongly support the Jews…and Israel happens to be the ancestral homeland for the Jews and it currently has 5,000,000 Jews living there (nearly 90% of its total population). It is impossible to see how we can support our Jewish brethren without supporting the nation of Israel, considering Israel is 90% Jewish.

*I acknowledge the fact that in salvation history the Jewish people have played a very very important role. *

==> Their role is not over–Scripture tells us they will still be at the table of the Lord. Do you accept that the Bible is divinely revealed, or not? Do you accept the teachings of the faith, or not? The Jews have played a critical role in salvation history, for they are the Chosen People of God and through them came Jesus Christ–they are and were pivotal!

Modern day Judaism is like an old spinster who missed her chance to get married. The party’s over! Sad but true.

==> No! Re-read Genesis chapter seventeen…God made that covenant and He called it everlasting–everlasting means it does not end! Do you think God changed His mind? Do you think God did not know that Israel would fall? Do you think Israel somehow tricked God? God made the Covenant and He along declared it to be everlasting!

*Nobody seems to be able to answer my question regarding American Christians view of policy towards Israel vs. the rest of the world’s view on Israel. *

==> First, you are painting with too broad a brush by saying the “rest of the world,” Secondly, America is populated by something like 85% Christians…and while many of those people are far from being devout believers, we are a very religious people. Almost all of Europe has now gone towards seclarlism, with Churches being empty and birth rates less than death rates–Christianity is nearly dead in Europe, right now. India, China and Muslim nations are not going to support Israel because they reject Judaism and Christianity. It is no surprise that the United States would be Israel’s best friend. Do not discount the blessings this nation enjoys…we have blessed Israel, and look at how blessed we are. Never underestimate God’s love for His Chosen People.

==> This discussion has everything to do with being faithful.
 
Anna,

I completely accept the curses that God brought down upon the Jews, His Chosen People. Why would you think I do not? I accept all of revealed truths. When God states that a given Promise is everlasting, then I believe it is everlasting.

Read Genesis 17.
 
It does not take much study to realize that Israel/Jews has lasted all sorts of persecutions and attempts to erase them since the dawn of them as a people. I know of no other people who have had a rougher road.

Israel/Jews will NEVER be gone until Jesus returns.They are God’s People.
 
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Steph700:
I did a quick search online for this book and this author. Interestingly, I’ve landed myself on
  1. Conservative political websites promoting Reagan
  2. Pro-America/Pro-Israel websites
  3. Angry Jews who were offended by this book websites
  4. LEFT BEHIND series websites! (if that isn’t a red flag I don’t know what is)
Something tells me I probably wouldn’t agree with much of what Schoemann has to say…

I appreciate the recommendation though. If you have a recommendation for an author who isn’t swayed by American foreign policy promoting Israel I would be more inclined to read it.
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Your response is very interesting indeed. Schoemann has appeared on EWTN’s The Journey Home, will be the subject of a roundtable discussion hosted by Scott Hahn and others, has been interviewed by Rosiland Moss and appears to be high regarded by the most revered and respected Catholic theologians we have today.

His story is genuine and enlightening and strongly appears to be without agenda.

Did you visit his site:

salvationisfromthejews.com/

I invite you to explore Schooemann and his book before being quick to give him the brush off.

%between%
 
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TPJCatholic:
I know of no other people who have had a rougher road.
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The Irish under the English? The Poles under the Russians? The Koreans under the Japanese? Black slaves under American Southerners? American Indians under European settlers?
 
richardols,

You state many people who have had a rough existence…no doubt about any of the people/nations you mentioned. However, none of those people have had nearly 4,000 years of intense persecution, and I do not know of any single “people” that were placed in slavery for 400 years as the Jews were under Egypt. The attack on Jews never ends, and I do not think it will until the Lord returns.
 
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TPJCatholic:
I do not know of any single “people” that were placed in slavery for 400 years.
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Black people in Africa by the Arabs for centuries.

Black people in America for some 200 years.
 
richardols,

None of your examples even remotely touches 4,000 years. i can tell you enjoy being contrary, but in this case give it up. 🙂
 
richardols,

BTW, black people are NOT a “people,” they are merely humans with dark pigment…Jews are a “people.”
 
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JKirkLVNV:
I wonder how many posters who think this is a good thing (ie, a harbinger of the coming of the rebuilt Temple, then the Second Coming of the Savior) are converts? I am, myself, a convert. I think it wise to remember that this sort of preoccupation with things like the rebuilt temple, etc, are carry-overs from Protestant theology and speculation, to which Holy Mother Church does NOT subscribe. If I’m wrong, someone correct me.
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Some of it would not be subscribed to (a pre-trib rapture for example would not have any foundation in Catholic Tradition)

I think the rebuilding of the Temple (i.e. the fact that it will happen) though is something that is taught by Church Fathers. I don’t know if it is official Church teaching though. Probably not.

If focusing on these things causes one to lose sight of one’s love for God, for Mary, the saints, devotion in prayer or reading, frequenting the sacraments when possible, etc., then it would be a bad thing. If it inspires all those things then it would be a good thing.
 
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Mijoy2:
Your response is very interesting indeed. Schoemann has appeared on EWTN’s The Journey Home, will be the subject of a roundtable discussion hosted by Scott Hahn and others, has been interviewed by Rosiland Moss and appears to be high regarded by the most revered and respected Catholic theologians we have today.

His story is genuine and enlightening and strongly appears to be without agenda.

Did you visit his site:

salvationisfromthejews.com/

I invite you to explore Schooemann and his book before being quick to give him the brush off.
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While I have great admiration for Marcus Grodi and Scott Hahn as enthusiastic converts (both of them have been important to me in my conversion experience) the Journey Home on EWTN is not a place I turn to when decifering political issues such as the pro-Israel movement. I would be more likely to seriously consider Schooemann’s book if I found evidence outside of American Catholic/Fundamentalist Pro-Israel theology for his beliefs, but as of yet no one seems to be able to give me even one source to get me started.

Nonetheless, I will look for it the next time I’m at my Christian bookstore.
 
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TPJCatholic:
BTW, black people are NOT a “people,” they are merely humans with dark pigment…Jews are a “people.”
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The way you use the word and the way I used it are both acceptable, lexicographically.
 
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Richardols:
The way you use the word and the way I used it are both acceptable, lexicographically.
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You’re right – but why split hairs?

The issue is justice in the modern world, not in the ancient world. The Muslims own the Temple Mount. It NOW includes their second-holiest building. To destroy that building would be an injustice.

It would also be seen as an example of American bigotry against Muslims – since it would be done with American money, American equipment, and at the sufferance of the American people. And THAT would not be good for our national security.
 
vern humphrey:
The issue is justice in the modern world, not in the ancient world. The Muslims own the Temple Mount.
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And the Israeli government acknowledges that.
It NOW includes their second-holiest building. To destroy that building would be an injustice.
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Yes.
It would also be seen as an example of American bigotry against Muslims – since it would be done with American money, American equipment, and at the sufferance of the American people. And THAT would not be good for our national security.
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Good post, and amen to all points.
 
richardols,

I do not agree…you were referring to blacks in Africa, yet there are many nations in Africa, all of which have differing views of the world, etc…they are not a people…they are a race of humans no different then whites, etc…

On the other hand, Jews are a people, just as Catholics are a people, Muslims are a people, etc…
 
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