10K Jews to the Temple Mount

[TPJCatholic]

richardols,

My scenerio works fine. If group “a” decides that they are the group that has rightful ownership of the Vatican, and then that group “a” decides to acquire such ownership (thereby kicking out the Church), would you say that is fine and acceptable or not? For all practical purposes that is what happened with the mount–if that was repeated with the Vatican, would you be okay with that…a simple yes or not would suffice.

I agree that both “should” share the mount, whether or not both have a right to do so is another question. Also, as you well know, Jews are being kept away from being able to share the mount as their faith drives them to do.

 

[Patrick]

Not so far fetched. The Vatican lost much of it’s land to the Italian Goverment in the mid 19th century. For a long time, the Vatican wouldn’t allow Italian Catholics to participate in politics. Ultimately, Blessed Bishop Scalibrini helped the Vatican see that all it needed was a small piece of land to be the city state.

Richardols:

I’d wonder why the Italian authorities didn’t send police to regain the Vatican immediately after the seizure.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Richardols:

Not Protestant theology, but Fundamentalist and Evangelical pre-millenial theology (mainline Protestants, like Catholics, are amillenialists). And it’s very big among those groups, all of whom, are awaiting the Rapture and the rebuilding of the Temple.

You’re quite right, I was painting with too broad a brush. Not all Protestants believe this.

 

[Richardols]

TPJCatholic:

richardols,

My scenerio works fine. If group “a” decides that they are the group that has rightful ownership of the Vatican, and then that group “a” decides to acquire such ownership (thereby kicking out the Church), would you say that is fine and acceptable or not? being able to share the mount as their faith drives them to do.

“Rightful ownership”? I don’t think those 7th Century people even thought in such terms.

When the Moslems took Jerusalem, they didn’t kick anyone out, except the Christians who were using it for a garbage dump to mock the Jews.

I don’t see that either the Jews or Moslems have any better claim to the Mount than the other does.

 

[TPJCatholic]

richardols,

This all depends on whether you believe God gave the Jews the land, including the Temple Mount, or whether that just has no bearing at all. Muslims will say it belongs to them, Jews say it belongs to them as was given to them by God–that it is their sacred heritage. Historically, the Jews were in the Land far in advance of the Christians and Muslims…about 2,400 years or more actually than the Muslims. So, from a Biblical, and historical point of view…the Jews take the stand that the Land is their’s.
Now, take that scenario and apply it to the Vatican…how would you feel if the Vatican had its land taken?

 

[Richardols]

TPJCatholic:

Now, take that scenario and apply it to the Vatican…how would you feel if the Vatican had its land taken?

But, it did. The Vatican lost the Papal States in the 19th century.

Should we try to get it back for the Pope?

 

[TPJCatholic]

richardols,

Okay, so you utterly refuse to think about what I am saying.

 

[Richardols]

TPJCatholic:

Jews say it belongs to them as was given to them by God–that it is their sacred heritage. Historically, the Jews were in the Land far in advance of the Christians and Muslims…about 2,400 years or more actually than the Muslims. So, from a Biblical, and historical point of view…the Jews take the stand that the Land is their’s.

Not the Jews, but some Jews. The country is mostly secular, you know. And, the State of Israel doesn’t make that claim, even if some religious right-wingers do. The State of Israel, the legitimate authority in the Holy Land, favors neither side and has made efforts to be even-handed.

 

[Richardols]

TPJCatholic:

richardols,

Okay, so you utterly refuse to think about what I am saying.

I have to think in realities. No one is going to take over the Vatican, the Papal States are lost to the Vatican for good, Israel isn’t going to let those protestors take over the entire Mount, and we’re not going to give Manhattan Island back to the Indians.

 

[TPJCatholic]

richardols,

One cannot understand issues if they stand stubbornly in a position of refusing to see why people think as they do.

Talk to you later.

 

[Richardols]

TPJCatholic:

One cannot understand issues if they stand stubbornly in a position of refusing to see why people think as they do.

Whoa! Back up a bit! You’re the guy with the fantasy about some bunch going and taking over the Vatican with the Italian government’s blessing. Don’t blame me if I refuse to consider that even a remote possibility.

 

[TPJCatholic]

richardols,

I certainly hope you are aware that the Vatican being taken over, and the Pope being forced to flee, is well establised in prophetic private revelation…we do not have to believe it, but it most certainly is NOT a fantasy of any kind and may very well happen as we head into endtimes. It was an honest question (intended to invoke further conversation), to which you utterly refused to give a straight answer.

 

[Steph700]

Richardols:

Not Protestant theology, but Fundamentalist and Evangelical pre-millenial theology (mainline Protestants, like Catholics, are amillenialists). And it’s very big among those groups, all of whom, are awaiting the Rapture and the rebuilding of the Temple.

This is absolutely correct! I know myself, as a former Evangelical pre-millinialist. I was actually set straight by some well-educated Anglicans-- Christianity does not equal support of Israel, they are not God’s Chosen. It took me a while to get my brain wrapped around this after years of propaganda from the pulpit and from “historical fiction” books in my Christian bookstore.

Anyway, one must wonder if so many Catholics on this site hold on to pre-millenial theology due to their experiences as former fundamentalists. It’s about the only explanation I can see, especially after living abroad and seeing first hand that the rest of the Christian world (Catholic, Anglican, and otherwise) does not support Israel!

 

[TPJCatholic]

steph,

There are roughly 6-7,000,000 people living in Israel, of which over 5,000,000 are Jews. That means Israel’s population is mostly Jewish. Are you trying to say that the Jewish people are no longer God’s chosen people, or are you saying they never were?

I am confused?

The Catechism says it well:

***201 **To Israel, his chosen, God revealed himself as the only One: “Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD; and you shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might.” Through the prophets, God calls Israel and all nations to turn to him, the one and only God: "Turn to me and be saved, all the ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other… . To me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear. ‘Only in the LORD, it shall be said of me, are righteousness and strength.’ "
*

 

[Steph700]

TPJCatholic:

steph,

Are you trying to say that the Jewish people are no longer God’s chosen people, or are you saying they never were?

I am confused?

The Catechism says it well:

***201 ***To Israel, his chosen, God revealed himself as the only One: “Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD; and you shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might.” Through the prophets, God calls Israel and all nations to turn to him, the one and only God: "Turn to me and be saved, all the ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other… . To me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear. ‘Only in the LORD, it shall be said of me, are righteousness and strength.’ "

They were God’s Chosen people in the Old Testament, but after Jesus came to save the Jews and the Gentiles they were no longer his Chosen.

This is an issue that you find almost only in America. The rest of the Christian world recognizes the fact that Israel and the Jewish people are not God’s people. In fact, when push comes to shove the vast majority of Christians would support Palestine over Israel.

 

[vern_humphrey]

The early possessors of the Temple Mount were Cannanites – and their descendants still survive.

David took Jerusalem from the Jebusites ca 1000 BCE. Solomon built the Temple about 953 BCE. After Solomon’s time, the Jewish state split into two kingdoms, Israel in the north with its capital at Samaria, and Judah in the south, with its capital at Jerusalem. The Assyrians took Samaria about 750 BCE and marched the inhabitants off into captivity (these are the "Lost Tribes of Israel.)

The Babylonians took Jerusalem about 586 BCE. They destroyed the Temple, took the Ark of the Covenant, and marched the people of Judah off into captivity (this is the “Babylonian Captivity.”) About 60 years later, Cyrus the Great of Persia conquered Babylong and allowed the Jews to return to Jerusalem, under Zerubbabel, who built a second temple (about 515 BCE.) This temple was “so small and mean that those who had seen Solomon’s Temple wept.”

Zerubbabel’s Temple was razed by Herod the Great in 19 BCE. Herod built a new Temple, following the biblical description of Solomon’s Temple. It is Herod’s Temple where the Holy Family sacrificed.

In the 60s of the Current Era, there was a Jewish revolt. The Roman General Titus (later Emperor) stormed Jerusalem and destroyed Herod’s Temple in 70 CE.

There was a second revolt in 133 CE. The Emperor Hadrian expelled the Jews (note: It was the Romans, NOT the Muslims – who didn’t yet exist – who expelled the Jews). Hadrian build a Roman city, Aleia Capitolina, on the ruins of Jerusalem. He also build a temple to Jupiter.

Mount Moriah today is larger than it was in Jesus’t time – and, politically incorrect as it may be, the Western Wall (the Wailing Wall) may be the reason. Some athorities believe this wall (which is a retaining wall, not part of any temple) was built when Hadrian enlarged Mount Moriah fror his temple.

St. Helena had her son, Constentine, restore the name Jerusalem. He did not lift the provision against the Jews returning, however, and Jews were not allowed back until 632, when the Muslims took Jerusalem (note: It was the Muslims, not the Christians, who allowed the Jews to return.)

Muslims believe that Mohammed ascended to heaven from the Rock on Mount Moriah (the rock on which Abraham was supposed to sacrifice Issac.) The Dome of the Rock (the building with the gold-plated dome) was built on Mount Moriah about 690 CE.

When the Crusaders took Jerusalem, they drove the Jews and Muslims out of the city and massacred them under the walls. Jews were not allowed to return until the Mamlukes regained control of the area about 1260 CE (note: It was Catholics who drove out and massacred the Jews this time, it was Muslims who allowed them to return once more.)

The Dome of the Rock has been on Mount Moriah longer than Soloman’s Temple, Zerubbabel’s Temple, and Herod’s Temple combined. To destroy it would be a crime of great magnitude.

 

[Ghosty]

The Jews are indeed still God’s Chosen People. The Catechism states:

[839](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/839.htm’) "Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways."325 The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People. When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People,326 "the first to hear the Word of God."327 The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God’s revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews “belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ”,328 **“for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable.”**329

The Jews were and are the Chosen People of God. This does NOT mean, however, that the Jews are more worthy of salvation under the New Covenant, nor does it mean that we must give our full support to the State of Israel. Being the Chosen People simply means that they were set apart by God as the vehicle for His Covenants with humankind, and that they hold a special place in His Revelations to humanity. This is attested to even in the New Testament, as the Apostles were Jews, and Jesus preached only to the Jews.

A lot of people have the misconception that “Chosen” means “better”. The Jewish people are “Chosen” in a special sense by virtue of their inheritance from Abraham. The “Gentiles” and the Jews who are in the Church are also “Chosen”, albeit in a different and perhaps even more special way, because we are participants in the very real Kingdom of God. God’s Covenant with the Jewish people as a bloodline is very different from God’s Covenant with Christians as believers (including Jews and people of ALL bloodlines). God never stated that the Old Covenant was abolished, as that would literally require the wiping out of the Jews completely (they exist by virtue of God’s promise to Abraham). Furthermore, Paul states that God isn’t finished with the Jewish bloodline anyway, although their ultimate place will be within the Church and not outside it (and Lord be praised, what a party we’ll all have!)

All that being said, I think that the idea of a few thousand fundamentalist, radical Jews storming the Temple Mount is a very bad thing. The terms political and social suicide are the least of the descriptions that come to mind. I get a little wary any time people start thinking in terms of forcing the Hand of God; talk to the rock, don’t smack it with a stick!

 

[vern_humphrey]

Ghosty:

All that being said, I think that the idea of a few thousand fundamentalist, radical Jews storming the Temple Mount is a very bad thing. The terms political and social suicide are the least of the descriptions that come to mind. I get a little wary any time people start thinking in terms of forcing the Hand of God; talk to the rock, don’t smack it with a stick!

The United States is at war with Terrorism. Our strategy is to isolate the terrorists – culturally, religiously, politically, militarily, financially.

Mao Tse-tung said the guerillas are the fish, and the people are the water in which they swim. Our strategy is to get the water to reject the fish. So far, we’re showing success – far more Muslims have been killed fighting on our side than Americans.

Now, will bulldozing one of Islam’s holiest spots – with bulldozers paid for with American aid, protected by tanks and armored personnel carriers also supplied by Uncle Sam HELP us?

I don’t think so!

 

[Franze]

The muslims steal this land to jews because the temple was from Salomon a for jews, but now for preventing conflicts, we have to follow the current stato-quo, but muslims many times follow a politics of burned land, and this is very sad.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Franze:

The muslims steal this land to jews because the temple was from Salomon a for jews, but now for preventing conflicts, we have to follow the current stato-quo, but muslims many times follow a politics of burned land, and this is very sad.

The Muslims did NOT steal this land from the Jews. They took it from Christians – specifically the Byzantine Empire, some 500 years AFTER the Romans expelled the Jews.