19 Kids and Counting

[petitfleur]

TITW- I am glad you mentioned those comments. I honestly feel like I need to hold myself back when discussing this because some of it sounds crazy, and I feel like I look like I am targeting them. I have had conversations with Robwar before about Gothard. I think he/she is just relieved others are starting to see the cracks. So many love the Duggars and will defend them to the death. I know we have read a lot of the same stuff and it is so disturbing it’s hard not to get angry at times. I really try not to sound like a kook when I am discussing this topic, it is hard when I have read some of the things I have read and the pain and spiritual abuse many people have endured.

 

[ToeInTheWater]

I have no idea where how you interpret my posts about the Duggars the way you have. I have been in the past attended Bill Gothard’s seminars a number of times. I am very familar with his teaching. I did not say that the Duggars are horrible people. I did say and have said that we do not know what happens in that household when the cameras are not rolling. There are a number of blogs out there that want some of the children like Jinger to bolt. I didn’t say I supported those types of blogs or their view point. Also you have accused me of being uncharitable. Now on this thread, others posted that they thought Ben was immature, I have not said that about him. Others haved called Jim Bob creepy. Again I didn’t say that about him. I have expressed concern for all their children. That is legitimate. Calling people creepy and immature is uncharitable. I do question in a number of things what both Michelle and Jim Bob are doing with their children which starts with doing a reality show about themselves to begin with. Children are not stage props no matter how religious and good you think you are.

Actually, what I was referring to was your description of comments Jim Bob made to Jinger as “sicko stuff”, which did strike me as borderline uncharitable. Sure, you were technically discussing the actions, not the people, but those are pretty strong words. If you’d used other words such as “disturbing” or “inappropriate” I’d have gotten quite a different impression.

Maybe I come across as wishy-washy, but while I do find many things about the whole quiverfull movement disturbing, especially if it’s as patriarchal as my brief readings about them today seem to be, I also realize that many of the arguments used to denigrate the Duggars have been used to denigrate Christian conservatives, including Catholics, in general, even those who aren’t as extreme. It seems I misunderstood your intent, so I’ll leave it there.

 

[ToeInTheWater]

TITW- I am glad you mentioned those comments. I honestly feel like I need to hold myself back when discussing this because some of it sounds crazy, and I feel like I look like I am targeting them. I have had conversations with Robwar before about Gothard. I think he/she is just relieved others are starting to see the cracks. So many love the Duggars and will defend them to the death. I know we have read a lot of the same stuff and it is so disturbing it’s hard not to get angry at times. I really try not to sound like a kook when I am discussing this topic, it is hard when I have read some of the things I have read and the pain and spiritual abuse many people have endured.

As I just mentioned to robwar I am trying to be charitable as possible, and I have no problems with providentialism or large families, however I certainly have an issue with the idea that women are not equal to men, but were meant to always be subordinate to some man, whether it be a father, husband, or pastor.

On the other hand, there are certainly such ultra-conservative elements in Catholicism as well, people who believe that wives should submit to husbands in all things except obvious sin, that mothers should only work if absolutely economically necessary, that NFP can only be used for the gravest, life-and-death circumstances, etc. And it seems that at least once a month on CAF, someone starts a “modesty” topic that quickly is filled with people claiming wicked women are dressing in ways meant to purposefully lure men into sexual sin. (And I must add, such posters were one reason I stopped posting on this site for a while; as a single professional woman, I did not exactly feel welcomed by some.)

When I think of that, I think we need to be somewhat measured on CAF when critiquing ultra-conservative Protestants like the Duggars. Unfortunately, many secular people see Catholics in almost the same light that many of the posters here view the Duggars, and I don’t mean in a good way.

 

[petitfleur]

I did not see Robwar’s response, I also don’t want to come across as hand slappy or harsh. You made good points. I don’t always come across how I want to when I’m typing. I hope there are no hard feelings, none were intended.

 

[aicirt]

With 19 kids, I can see that some kids will rebel and take a different road. I do hope they’re not shunned.

I’d like to think that Jim Bob’s sister and her daughter would offer a safe harbor to any of the kids wanting a different life. Ditto for the paternal grandmother although it might be more difficult for her. And then there’s Michele’s biological family. What about them? Do the kids ever see those people.

Jessa’s boyfriend, 19, is too young. I can readily understand that the girls are interested in courting because that is the only opportunity opened to them to meet men. Jill seemed to have a lot of confidence in her dad picking out a suitable mate. I don’t think he’s doing Jessa a favor. Would really like to see the parents help Jana have a life. She a very pretty young woman and at 24 should have more in her life than being Mom’s assistant.

 

[Faith1960]

Do they even go to church? The kids are marrying in churches but I thought once they showed services of some kind in their house.

 

[Faith1960]

With 19 kids, I can see that some kids will rebel and take a different road. I do hope they’re not shunned.

I’d like to think that Jim Bob’s sister and her daughter would offer a safe harbor to any of the kids wanting a different life. Ditto for the paternal grandmother although it might be more difficult for her. And then there’s Michele’s biological family. What about them? Do the kids ever see those people.

Jessa’s boyfriend, 19, is too young. I can readily understand that the girls are interested in courting because that is the only opportunity opened to them to meet men. Jill seemed to have a lot of confidence in her dad picking out a suitable mate. I don’t think he’s doing Jessa a favor. Would really like to see the parents help Jana have a life. She a very pretty young woman and at 24 should have more in her life than being Mom’s assistant.

I agree.

 

[Faith1960]

With 19 kids, I can see that some kids will rebel and take a different road. I do hope they’re not shunned.

I’d like to think that Jim Bob’s sister and her daughter would offer a safe harbor to any of the kids wanting a different life. Ditto for the paternal grandmother although it might be more difficult for her. And then there’s Michele’s biological family. What about them? Do the kids ever see those people.

Jessa’s boyfriend, 19, is too young. I can readily understand that the girls are interested in courting because that is the only opportunity opened to them to meet men. Jill seemed to have a lot of confidence in her dad picking out a suitable mate. I don’t think he’s doing Jessa a favor. Would really like to see the parents help Jana have a life. She a very pretty young woman and at 24 should have more in her life than being Mom’s assistant.

They’re officially married now. I saw a picture of the couple and her dress is a very pale pink.

 

[Evania]

Really? I said more than four kids would be too much to ME and you guys feel the need to swoop in, patronize me and tell me how much better you are. This was a response to being quiverfull.

I swooped in and patronized you when I agreed with this comment?

I’m sorry your life is so hectic with four kids. But I’ll tell you, I have never run into that problem with my eight. I really don’t think the number of kids in a family is the deciding factor when it comes down to the interactions between parents and kids. Many moms of two mention the same issue of not having time to talk to or be with each of the kids. Lots of parents with 6+ kids don’t have that trouble. Lifestyle is a big deciding factor.

I agreed with this person’s comment that the number of kids isn’t the deciding factor when it comes down to interactions. That was it. In no way, shape or form am I passing judgment on you for your experience and your decision to have four children. I am confused at how you arrived at the conclusion that I think I’m better than you. That never even crossed my mind. However, I would like to apologize because I hate that I may have come across to you that I was doing that. I read more of your posts, and I do agree with your views about the quiverfull movement.

 

[masondoggy]

Do they even go to church? The kids are marrying in churches but I thought once they showed services of some kind in their house.

I think they do a “home based” church. They’ve had episodes where they met in a house with other families and did their own thing, led by the men. They didn’t even have a minister or anything like that.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Does anybody else besides me watch this show? If so, anybody else noticing how Jim Bob keeps pushing this Ben kid in his relationship with Jessa? In front of all these people, including Ben’s,parents , Jim Bob asks him to move onto their property and then there’s all this marriage marriage marriage talk by Jim Bob and Michelle.
The kid seems really immature to me, and he’s 2 years younger than Jessa.
When they have their interview part of the show, he’s hinted he’s going to buy her an engagement ring but hasn’t…then last night Jessa asked him on camera, if they are engaged…

My wife and kids and I watch the show. It is good clean TV and we like the family. But I have to say that I agree that it is odd with those two. I will say this, he is young, and Jim Bob is most likely helping him out. And I think that is fine. But I also think that it will be hard for him to ever be his own man someday.

I also think that this family is a wonderful family and we should not read too much or assume the worst with some things that they do that are different than what we are used to seeing in the world. If my kids grow up like the duggars I would be quite happy about that. And if my daughter was in love with a young man, who may not be cooked yet, I would do my best to help him along for the sake of her.

 

[Faith1960]

Last night I read an article online in either People or Us magazine and Bens dad acknowledged his son is immature but said that he was too, at that age and how marriage made him grow up.

 

[petitfleur]

I swooped in and patronized you when I agreed with this comment?

I agreed with this person’s comment that the number of kids isn’t the deciding factor when it comes down to interactions. That was it. In no way, shape or form am I passing judgment on you for your experience and your decision to have four children. I am confused at how you arrived at the conclusion that I think I’m better than you. That never even crossed my mind. However, I would like to apologize because I hate that I may have come across to you that I was doing that. I read more of your posts, and I do agree with your views about the quiverfull movement.

Thank You, sorry, my intention was to quote both of you. I planned on ignoring it, then when it was liked I wanted to respond before it turned into a thread about large families versus small, and people who choose less kids do so because of selfish reasons blah blah blah. The post she was responding to was in response to the idea that not everyone can do a good job raising large amounts of kids, and what would happen to a family of they just kept having more even if the parents were not hard wired for that lifestyle. I did try to give the example of Ray Guarendi to show that I am not against big families.
My intention was always to have a large family, my husband was the one to put his foot down on this. I was very upset at first, but see now that it would of been a disaster. Sorry to single you out.

 

[ToeInTheWater]

Okay, I think I may have been too harsh in my replies last night (I probably should have gone to sleep earlier!)

Anyway, I guess my overall take on the Duggars is, that while many aspects of their lifestyle are troubling, I do want to be charitable and assume they’re acting out of good intentions. I hope Ben and Jessa have a happy marriage, and I know it is possible for people to marry when they’re young and foolish and “grow up together”. I hope they do well, but unfortunately I won’t be surprised if they don’t.

I also hope that if any Duggar children want to be more independent than how they are now, that they are not shunned or cast out, as apparently has happened with other quiverful families.

I do get the feeling, though, that if any of the kids ever publicly “comes out” as having SSA then that might be the end of the show, I doubt whatever response Jim Bob and Michelle would have if that happened would be considered politically correct. (Though to be a tad cynical, it likely also depends on whether it’s getting good ratings at the time; Duck Dynasty did wind up being renewed by A and E, after all.)

 

[aicirt]

They’re officially married now. I saw a picture of the couple and her dress is a very pale pink.

Well, they’re a nice looking couple and wish them all the best.

Thinking about immaturity and marriage: We visited the WWII Museum in New Orleans. One of the audio stories concerned a girl of 17 who was playing with her paper dolls when her recently drafted boyfriend walked in and asked if she wanted to get married. She said, “Yes.”

The couple and their parents hoofed it on down to city hall where the vows were said. To celebrate the occasion, they stopped at the corner store and bought rock candy on a stick.

He went off to war and she and her Mom went off to work. The first time either had a job outside the home. The war ended, he came home. His bride was not the child he had wed. She was a woman now. Had some difficulties adjusting but the marriage lasted. So I guess there’s hope. Sweet story.

 

[robwar]

Actually, what I was referring to was your description of comments Jim Bob made to Jinger as “sicko stuff”, which did strike me as borderline uncharitable. Sure, you were technically discussing the actions, not the people, but those are pretty strong words. If you’d used other words such as “disturbing” or “inappropriate” I’d have gotten quite a different impression.

Maybe I come across as wishy-washy, but while I do find many things about the whole quiverfull movement disturbing, especially if it’s as patriarchal as my brief readings about them today seem to be, I also realize that many of the arguments used to denigrate the Duggars have been used to denigrate Christian conservatives, including Catholics, in general, even those who aren’t as extreme. It seems I misunderstood your intent, so I’ll leave it there.

Well, taking about sex on camera to your young adult daughter while hunting turkeys with a male hunting buddy looking on a smirking is sicko stuff. If that is normal to you, more power to you but it is a sign of deeper issues which is the view of women as baby machines and nothing more. Their show is more than trying to showcase big families and how they manage. I have nothing at all against big families, homeschooling, no artificial birth control and even saving one’s first kiss for their wedding day. My concern is not having a TV in your home yet you put yourself out their on a reality show. My concern is who they following which is Bill gothard and his ATI homeschool program. My concern is that the ATI program they have used so far doesn’t lead to a real high school diploma, they are not prepared for college at all. Bill Gothard teaches that college is not God’s way in case you were not aware of it. My concern is that all these children are not allowed to have their own time, views, careers, friends etc. This isn’t a healthy way to raise one’s children and if you think it is, then go visit recoverying garce web site and read some of the horrific stories of children now adults raise under Bill Gothard and his teaching.

 

[robwar]

Well, they’re a nice looking couple and wish them all the best.

Thinking about immaturity and marriage: We visited the WWII Museum in New Orleans. One of the audio stories concerned a girl of 17 who was playing with her paper dolls when her recently drafted boyfriend walked in and asked if she wanted to get married. She said, “Yes.”

The couple and their parents hoofed it on down to city hall where the vows were said. To celebrate the occasion, they stopped at the corner store and bought rock candy on a stick.

He went off to war and she and her Mom went off to work. The first time either had a job outside the home. The war ended, he came home. His bride was not the child he had wed. She was a woman now. Had some difficulties adjusting but the marriage lasted. So I guess there’s hope. Sweet story.

There is a huge difference between the WWII times and now. Back then, there was no no fault divorce and when people married, society expected couples to work out their struggles. One can’t compare the times and think it can apply to the Duggars who are have raised their children in front of the camera with all its unneccessary attention and pressure that it brings. Jill and Derrick not only get married but seem to get pregnant right away and that make People magazine cover. That is not wise or healthy in the long run. Jill post on her honeymoon how glad that she is in a “godly marriage”. I understand her excitment but really lets see how she feels 10 year and 8 kids later with little money because none of them have oportunities at careers that is going to support all of this, unless it’s reality TV again.

 

[robwar]

Last night I read an article online in either People or Us magazine and Bens dad acknowledged his son is immature but said that he was too, at that age and how marriage made him grow up.

There are better ways to learn to grow up than getting married in an arrangement, with a family on reality tv with all the pressure and attention that this will bring to them.

 

[ToeInTheWater]

Well, taking about sex on camera to your young adult daughter while hunting turkeys with a male hunting buddy looking on a smirking is sicko stuff. If that is normal to you, more power to you but it is a sign of deeper issues which is the view of women as baby machines and nothing more.

Did I ever state that what Jim Bob did was “normal”? BTW I did not watch that scene so I have no way to judge, but I did state there were other ways you could have phrased it such as “disturbing” or “inappropriate” that I would have found no objection to.

Their show is more than trying to showcase big families and how they manage. I have nothing at all against big families, homeschooling, no artificial birth control and even saving one’s first kiss for their wedding day. My concern is not having a TV in your home yet you put yourself out their on a reality show. My concern is who they following which is Bill gothard and his ATI homeschool program. My concern is that the ATI program they have used so far doesn’t lead to a real high school diploma, they are not prepared for college at all. Bill Gothard teaches that college is not God’s way in case you were not aware of it. My concern is that all these children are not allowed to have their own time, views, careers, friends etc. This isn’t a healthy way to raise one’s children and if you think it is, then go visit recoverying garce web site and read some of the horrific stories of children now adults raise under Bill Gothard and his teaching.

Again, I’m not saying it’s wrong to question the Duggars, but I think there’s a way to do it and still be charitable. Are you even reading my posts? I have stated that the patriarchal aspects of the quiverfull movement disturb me, I didn’t say everything they do is normal or healthy. But I haven’t read ANYTHING positive about the Duggars from you.

Jill and Derrick not only get married but seem to get pregnant right away and that make People magazine cover. That is not wise or healthy in the long run. Jill post on her honeymoon how glad that she is in a “godly marriage”. I understand her excitment but really lets see how she feels 10 year and 8 kids later with little money because none of them have oportunities at careers that is going to support all of this, unless it’s reality TV again.

Gee, I can think of a lot of conservative Catholics who get married and get pregnant right away, I’ve seen many people post on CAF that if couples who don’t feel ready to have a honeymoon baby, they shouldn’t get married at all, or even that if they do, the marriage will be invalid, even if they plan to use NFP, not ABC.

Your last comment makes me think you WANT Jill to wind up miserable in her marriage just to prove your point that her lifestyle is wrong. That to me crosses the bounds of charity.

 

[robwar]

Did I ever state that what Jim Bob did was “normal”? BTW I did not watch that scene so I have no way to judge, but I did state there were other ways you could have phrased it such as “disturbing” or “inappropriate” that I would have found no objection to.

Again, I’m not saying it’s wrong to question the Duggars, but I think there’s a way to do it and still be charitable. Are you even reading my posts? I have stated that the patriarchal aspects of the quiverfull movement disturb me, I didn’t say everything they do is normal or healthy. But I haven’t read ANYTHING positive about the Duggars from you.

Gee, I can think of a lot of conservative Catholics who get married and get pregnant right away, I’ve seen many people post on CAF that if couples who don’t feel ready to have a honeymoon baby, they shouldn’t get married at all, or even that if they do, the marriage will be invalid, even if they plan to use NFP, not ABC.

Your last comment makes me think you WANT Jill to wind up miserable in her marriage just to prove your point that her lifestyle is wrong. That to me crosses the bounds of charity.

No, that isn’t what I said or implied. I didn’t say that getting pregnant right away is wrong. I am not sure why you see to try and pick on me. But putting yourself on People magazine right away is troubling. Again, I would suggest you read the book “I fired God” which is a real tough story to get through but covers this quiverfull, fundamentalist lifestyle which tv cameras do not show. The woman who wrote that book had 8 children in 9 years of marriage. I fear for the Duggar children and feel very sorry for them. You have never sat through IBYC seminars and I have. Once one is familar with his teaching and know its true effects and down side to the cozy promotion on TV. Your constant accusation that I have been uncharitable is a bogus deflection when one doesn’t know this material or the persons behind it and maybe wants to buy into the TV sell of it.