1P5 Article "More and More, It Looks Like Tradition is the Future of the Church"

[OraLabora]

I’ve always wondered why it is that when the EF is talked about, the 50s is mentioned by those who don’t want it, when the EF certainly predates the 50s and goes beyond it. ??

Because the 50s are still remembered by many people.

Then I wonder what is so horrible about the people of the 50s that it would frighten someone. I have good Catholic family that lived and helped build the Church during that time, before and after.

The 50’s Church in Quebec was seen by many as horrible. Most Catholics bailed during the Quiet Revolution, which coincided with Vatican II. There’s a reason. It’s because the Church in Quebec at that time was horrible. And clericalist, and Jansenist.

 

[stpurl]

The Church in QUEBEC perhaps.

The Church in many other places, including the US in the 1950s, was well-beloved.

It was not Jansenist. It was not ‘refusing to absolve women if they weren’t pregnant or trying to be so.

Though as a 64 year old woman, I do not think it entirely ‘coincidental’ that so many of the anticlerical, anti-Catholic themes seem to revolve around the ‘modern mortal sin’ of encouraging young married women to have children. For pretty much the entire history of world civilization children were seen as a gift and a promise and a potential. Only since the rather antiCatholic ‘enlightenment’ era, and particularly since the modern materialisation of society have children become ‘parasites’ and ‘female potential—seen purely as female ‘outside the home’—become the new raison d’etre.

The not-so-funny joke is that, in the last couple of generations, with the forced sterilizations in many parts of the world and the genetic selection resulting in a surplus of males, and with the societal conditioning of women first to make their bodies unhealthfully androgynous in the 1960s and then to artificially sexualise the prepubescent female ‘look’, and THEN even further to work toward sexual ‘activity’ without consequence, I.e. with ramping up abortion and the pill, we have many countries which have fallen below the ‘replacement rate’, we have many countries with an aging large population and a much smaller younger population which itself is being infantilised and in the western world especially groomed for entitlement, victimisation, and the whole ‘bread and circus’ aspect, conditioned to look only for their own gratification and to callously jettison anything that interferes with same. While of course there still are many wonderful and loving young people as well as healthy sage elders, the gradual thrust of society toward utilitarianism in the West is accelerating.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

It’s because the Church in Quebec at that time was horrible. And clericalist, and Jansenist.

But the whole Catholic Church was not like that in the 50s and many remember that time period fondly and not with horror.

So it is okay to say Quebec had issues at that time but not the whole Church.

And still the EF predates the 50s, so the 50s in the Quebec Church is a drop in a bucket on the timeline and doesnt represent the EF.

 

[OraLabora]

The anecdote I related happened in Quebec and only applies to Quebec, though I hear Ireland had similar issues.

It also didn’t help that the Quebec Church was in bed with a corrupt and stale provincial government. It served the interests of the government and the bishops. The laity… not so much.

All this is to illustrate, in response to the suggestion that I need a survey to determine the demand for the EF, why I really don’t. I know enough about our history to suggest that a survey isn’t needed. In Montreal, a city of 3 million, one parish suffices to meet the demand.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

Do you have any young Catholics in your area that didnt live during that time but rather in their Catholic education are learning the beautiful history of the Catholic Church? Surely not everyone in Quebec remembers that issue in its history. Even if they are told about it, I hope they are also told it has no bearing on the Church as a whole and what the Church in Quebec was like before and after that time.

The poll or survey should definitely include the younger generation and those who have left the Church.

 

[OraLabora]

Do you have any young Catholics in your area that didnt live during that time but rather in their Catholic education are learning the beautiful history of the Catholic Church?

“Young Catholic” is almost an oxymoron on the Francophone side. There may be a bit more on the anglo side. The grandparents of today’s youth are the generation that bailed from the Church. The parents of kids that are my kids’ age, are unchurched so they did not pass the faith down, and in the lifetime of my kids, schools were deconfessionalized and religion no longer taught in school. None of my kids’ peers go to any church of any kind.

I’m very pessimistic about the future of the Church in Québec, though there are pockets of hope here and there.

The Church in QUEBEC perhaps.

Yes, I thought I was clear on that. I cannot speak for other areas of the world.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

“Young Catholic” is almost an oxymoron on the Francophone side. There may be a bit more on the anglo side. The grandparents of today’s youth are the generation that bailed from the Church. The parents of kids that are my kids’ age, are unchurched so they did not pass the faith down, and in the lifetime of my kids, schools were deconfessionalized and religion no longer taught in school. None of my kids’ peers go to any church of any kind.

Sorry, I don’t mean to keep going but all those kids that are going to the Catholic schools in Quebec are not learning the faith?

 

[OraLabora]

Sorry, I don’t mean to keep going but all those kids that are going to the Catholic schools in Quebec are not learning the faith?

There are no longer any Catholic schools in Quebec except private schools. All public education since 1998 is along linguistic, not religious lines. Previously the Constitution required that schools be Catholic, or Protestant (essentially all non-Catholics). There are no longer any religion classes in public education.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

There are no longer any Catholic schools in Quebec except private schools.

That is how it is here. Public schools do not offer the Catholic faith (pretty much teach just the opposite) but only the private Catholic schools teach the faith.

 

[Peeps]

Just out of curiosity, is it diocesan? Also, is it prayed by a priest who prefers the Latin mass over the Mass of St. Paul VI?

It is offered by a delightful young priest who is part of the Institute of Christ the King. Before that, the priest was not very personable, but he left several years ago, and this younger man became the priest.

It is not diocesan, but it is approved by the diocese, and our bishop has offered Mass there.

The people are friendly, the music is done by a very talented young man, and there is a K-12 school associated with the parish, a very good school that has several sports teams that are part of a conference (in other words, they actually participate in meets). I have volunteered there in the past, but sadly am no longer able to make it over there during the day due to work.

The location is a bit dicey (ANY location in our city is a bit dicey! shootings are an everyday occurrence), but there is plenty of parking, and the old building is historic and very beautiful inside.

Several very well-off and generous families are members of this parish. There is a mix of ages. Most of the people are white/European descent (all countries in Europe), with several Hispanic families also in attendance. I don’t know of any African-American or African families, but it’s possible that I haven’t seen them yet (there is a fairly respectable number of African Catholics in our city, mainly people who have immigrated from Nigeria).

It’s just not growing by leaps and bounds. I don’t think ANY Christian church in our city, Catholic, Protestant, or Orthodox, is growing by leaps and bounds. Even the Willow Creek church plant is losing people and cutting programs. It’s possible that some of the African American churches are growing, but there isn’t a lot of communication with the public or other Christian churches with these churches, so it’s hard to say. Even the cults are down (Unitarian, LDS, 7DA, Bahai, Unity, etc.).

I think people would rather commune with their phones than with God and His people.

 

[Peeps]

Problem with everyone getting what they want, the Church loses it’s unity like the “one” in the “one, holy Catholic and apostolic” "Church.

“Unity” and “uniformity” are not the same thing.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

“Unity” and “uniformity” are not the same thing.

True though the Church does require some uniformity. One way is the rubrics for the Mass. It helps keep the unity.

 

[Peeps]

True though the Church does require some uniformity. One way is the rubrics for the Mass. It helps keep the unity.

It is the Holy Spirit who makes us one.

“I…beg of you to lead a life worthy of the calling to which you have been called, with all humility and gentleness, with patience, bearing with one another in love, making every effort to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.” (Ephesians 4:1&2, although the entire chapter is amazing, and tells of how the Holy Spirit helps the Church to be “one.”)

The Church could have perfect adherence to rubrics, absolutely uniform across the entire world–and still be divided because of our refusal to be humble, gentle, patient, and loving, and submit to the Holy Spirit.

 

[phil19034]

Location of the Latin Mass parish plays a huge role.

In my experience, there are three kinds of Latin Mass attendees

• Those who prefer the Ordinary Form by like to attend a Latin Mass here and there. These people typically only like to attend High Masses and don’t like to attend the Low Mass.
• Those who prefer the Extraordinary Form, but are not willing to drive long/far or into bad neighborhoods in order to attend
• Those who will drive into any neighborhood and will easily drive 30/60/90 minutes each way to attend the Latin Mass.

Unfortunately, a lot of the most beautiful churches that are being closed are often in rundown neighborhoods. Sometimes it’s not enough to simply give the Latin Mass community a beautiful Church. It also has to be accessible. If families are afraid to drive though the neighborhood or traffic makes going to mass each Sunday stressful, less people are going to attend.

In my Archdioceses, we had several Latin Mass locations across the Archdioceses, but none of them “blossomed” because all by one of them were hard to drive to. And even the one that was easy to drive to lacks parking and is a very small Chapel with little parking (it was never a parish Church, and has always been a mission chapel since it was built).

When the Archdiocese invited the FSSP to our dioceses, they gave it a Church that was originally built as a Polish Personal Parish. So it was built to be a parish Church, and also wasn’t too big for a personal parish.

But the best part, it is geographically located in the center of the Archdiocese at the intersection two of the region’s most important interstate highways. It’s very easy to reach this Church except from the Northeast section of Philadelphia - where there is another Latin Mass location.

The location has made it great for people to easily check it out from all over the Archdiocese. Those who fall in love with it wind up attending more and more. The Archdiocese was very lucky that it had such a centrally located Church that could become the new home for the FSSP.

Just like the Personal Parishes of the past - being built in middle of the neighborhoods where people wanted these Personal Parishes, the Latin Mass personal parishes are most successful when they are centrally located to the population, with easy access, and a safe neighborhood.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

It is the Holy Spirit who makes us one.

I agree. It is the Holy Spirit that leads the Church.

The Church could have perfect adherence to rubrics, absolutely uniform across the entire world–and still be divided because of our refusal to be humble, gentle, patient, and loving, and submit to the Holy Spirit.

In all charity, being humble, gentle, patient, loving and submitting to the Holy Spirit leads us to obedience to Holy Mother Church. It is Catholic priests everywhere obeying the Catholic Church and doing what is required for Consecration of the host that gives us the Eucharist for our salvation.

 

[commenter]

phil19034:

Just out of curiosity, is it diocesan? Also, is it prayed by a priest who prefers the Latin mass over the Mass of St. Paul VI?

It is offered by a delightful young priest who is part of the Institute of Christ the King.

It is not diocesan, but it is approved by the diocese, and our bishop has offered Mass there.

1. Responding to Peeps, yes it is “diocesan”. If the ICKSP has a seminary, House of Formation, or other internal program, that wouldn’t be diocesan, but if it’s a chapel or parish offering public Masses, it is diocesan.

The only public TLM that are not diocesan would be SSPX, or similar group, though they may have Communication with the diocese.

1. Responding to the phrase I bolded: eek!!

One good thing about my growing up was that the “Mass is the Mass is the Mass”. Its not holier if I like the priest, or any characteristic of the priest at all.

Since the 1960s there is more “subjective”, the “I have to go where I’ll be fed”. We have bred a generation of connoisseurs.

I saw this first on the charismatic movement, but in recent years among supposed “Traditional” types.

Ideally, our hearts should be so swept up in worship that if someone asked an hour later “who said the Mass?” we would trouble remembering - let alone, whether it was in EF or OF, let alone whether it was a strict EF priest vs one who, unfortunately, offered the No Mass 2 hours earlier, and liked the OF. Ideally we wouldn’t notice any of that because of Who we were noticing.

We’ve lost something.

 

[phil19034]

1. Responding to the phrase I bolded: eek!!

One good thing about my growing up was that the “Mass is the Mass is the Mass”. Its not holier if I like the priest, or any characteristic of the priest at all.

Since the 1960s there is more “subjective”, the “I have to go where I’ll be fed”. We have bred a generation of connoisseurs.

I saw this first on the charismatic movement, but in recent years among supposed “Traditional” types.

Ideally, our hearts should be so swept up in worship that if someone asked an hour later “who said the Mass?” we would trouble remembering - let alone, whether it was in EF or OF, let alone whether it was a strict EF priest vs one who, unfortunately, offered the No Mass 2 hours earlier, and liked the OF. Ideally we wouldn’t notice any of that because of Who we were noticing.

We’ve lost something.

You are totally missing my point.

There are SOME priests who are only praying the EF because they FEEL forced to do so by their parish and/or bishop.

While I’m very thankful for these priests, sometimes they feel unappreciated because the people are often always asking him for more & he can’t provide it. Priests are human. If they feel like they are totally unappreciated by the Latin Mass congregation (even if it really isn’t true) it’s going to eventually affect his body language, etc.

In order for a secular priest to provide the Latin Mass, he needs to do the following:

1. brush up on his Latin if it isn’t already solid because he has to pray & read all the changing parts of the mass
2. learn the rubric all by himself or online. It’s not easy and typically a secular priest won’t have a group of priests to teach him like FSSP seminarians do.
3. he will have to research and find all the necessary logistics/items his parish might be currently missing.
4. find people to create a scola if he is planning on offering a High Mass. He will also be in charge of training them, unless they have someone who can lead the schola who has already been trained.

All of this work Father has to do on his own and chances are he won’t have much support from the Diocese to accomplish all these tasks. However, religious order priests dedicated to the Latin Mass WILL have the support the priest needs.

Therefore, for a secular priest to offer the Latin Mass, if it’s not a hobby/labor of love for him… he’s going to consider it to be a lot of work. And if he doesn’t feel appreciated for everything he’s doing, it would only be natural for him to feel a little bitter or unappreciated.

The problem with territorial parishes offering the Latin mass is that many people attending want to be able to attend the Latin Mass 7 days a week, and want to receive all seven sacraments in the Extraordinary Form. They also want Holy Week in the Extraordinary Form.

(cont)

 

[phil19034]

(cont)

These are things that most secular priests cannot accomplish without a lot of diocesan support. Plus, without diocesan support, it can also be very hard for them to provide High Masses and Solemn High Masses - which most people want.

So when father constantly gets asked by multiple people the following questions, it can get old for him:

• Father, when will we get a schola?
• Father, can you provide all sacraments in the Extraordinary Form?
• Father, can we have daily mass in the Extraordinary Form?
• Father, can we have Holy Week in the Latin Mass?
• Father, can the you move the Sunday Latin Mass to a better time?
• Father, when will you get a Deacon and Sub-Deacon?

All these innocent questions can wear down a priest down over time, esp. if he feels “forced” by the bishop or parish to provide the Latin Mass.

However, if Father prefers the Latin Mass or loves it as equally as the OF, then it will truly be a labor of love. But if Father privately wishes he didn’t have to pray the Latin mass, it can be stressful for him.

This is why is SO IMPORTANT to always thank our priests for offering the Latin Mass - especially the secular (diocesan) priests. It’s a LOT of extra work for diocesan priest, so we need to thank them a lot in order to help Father to fall in love with the Latin Mass (if he isn’t already).

 

[Cor_ad_Cor]

One good thing about my growing up was that the “Mass is the Mass is the Mass”. Its not holier if I like the priest, or any characteristic of the priest at all.

Since the 1960s there is more “subjective”, the “I have to go where I’ll be fed”. We have bred a generation of connoisseurs.

I saw this first on the charismatic movement, but in recent years among supposed “Traditional” types.

Ideally, our hearts should be so swept up in worship that if someone asked an hour later “who said the Mass?” we would trouble remembering - let alone, whether it was in EF or OF, let alone whether it was a strict EF priest vs one who, unfortunately, offered the No Mass 2 hours earlier, and liked the OF. Ideally we wouldn’t notice any of that because of Who we were noticing.

We’ve lost something.

I don’t have enough hearts to give this; you’ll just have to settle for an “AMEN!”