2 Opus Dei followers on trial in France

[LovePatience]

(And there have always been ‘rebel’ bishops or groups of bishops and individual priests who oppose Church teaching emanating from Rome - or have opinions contrary to the Church, but the Vatican is the one that counts.)

These aren’t ‘rebel’ groups. They represented most of the Church hierarchy in the United States. The anti-slavery Catholics in the US were the rebels.

Slavery by any other name is still slavery. (why didn’t the Brits just leave India once it was clear the Indians wanted them too? - they wanted the huge profits they were able to steal from India to flow to themselves. They kept the Indian nation in bondage for British profit, by force of arms, which is how slavery operates.)

The definition matters. At least when slavery is over, indigenous people no longer have to be afraid of being kidnapped and taken to another country. We colonized Iraq recently. Were we their slave masters? All polls showed a majority of Iraqis opposed the invasion.

 

[jaaraf]

IqTo Raphaela: I do know of someone who was asked if she wanted to be a numerary but decided to be more active in her parish instead. Later, she became a cooperator but is no longer attending activities. I personally know of a former numerary who is now married to a supernumerary and still attend activities as a cooperator. I also know a former numerary who is reluctant to set foot in a center. I think it is a case to case basis and depends on how the person perceives things. If you ate wondering, I’m an associate.

 

[SamH]

Catholic bishops in the Southern U.S. focused on the word “unjustly”. They argued that the Pope did not condemn slavery if the slaves had been captured justly—that is, they were either criminals or prisoners of war. The bishops determined that this prohibition did not apply to slavery in the U.S**.[citation needed]**

I’m convinced.

Answering the charge that Catholics were widely supporting the abolitionist movement, Bishop England noted that Gregory XVI was condemning only the slave trade and not slavery itself, especially as it existed in the United States. To prove his opinion, England had In Supremo translated and published in his diocesan newspaper, The United States Catholic Miscellany, and even went so far as to write a series of 18 extensive letters to John Forsyth, the Secretary of State under President Martin Van Buren, to explain how he and most of the other American bishops interpreted In Supremo Apostolatus.

NO CITATION

There’s a reason WIKI is not used as a serious source by anyone - and your posts show why.

The rest appears to be even more worthless jibber jabber.

 

[LovePatience]

I’m convinced.

There’s a reason WIKI is not used as a serious source by anyone - and your posts show why.

The rest appears to be even more worthless jibber jabber.

This attitude of deny, deny, deny is ridiculous.

Fr. Panzer, writer of the book: The Popes and Slavery confirms that the wikipedia account is true: cfpeople.org/Apologetics/page51a003.html.

Besides the quotation from Laennec Hurbon given at the beginning of this article, we may illustrate the problem by citing also the American Church historian James Hennesey, S.J. The following is taken from his consideration of the Church’s efforts, or lack thereof, to obtain the abolition of slavery in the United States:

“Opponents of slavery found slight support in official church teaching. Pope Gregory XVI in 1838 (sic) condemned the slave trade, but not slavery itself” (emphasis added).

John T. Noonan also believes that Gregory condemned only the slave trade, and that there were exceptions even to this condemnation. He wrote:

“In 1839 Gregory XVI condemned the slave trade, but not so explicitly that the condemnation covered occasional sales by owners of surplus stock.”

The American Bishops in the last century, who were charged with applying the teaching of In Supremo to the slavery institution that existed in our country, as a teaching body fell into this same error regarding what was condemned.

Hennesey wrote: “No (American) Catholic bishop spoke for abolition in the pre-war years. In 1840 (the Bishop of Charleston) John England explained to (President Martin) Van Buren’s Secretary of State, John Forsyth, that Pope Gregory XVI had condemned the trade in slaves, but that no pope had ever condemned domestic slavery as it had existed in the United States” (emphasis added).

Thus, the misreading of In Supremo that exists among scholars today actually has its roots in the partial rejection of that papal Constitution by the American hierarchy over a century and a half earlier.

The leading priest of Opus Dei Fr. McCloskey even STILL argues in favor of the confederacy. catholicity.com/mccloskey/shadesofgray.html

 

[kama3]

Opus Dei and people associated with the order sometimes have the same attitude of acceptance of the suffering of others, seeing encouraging someone to aim for a higher state than they previously have as a greater evil than a person not living up to their potential.

In the learned helplessness experiment an animal is repeatedly hurt by an adverse stimulus which it cannot escape.

Eventually the animal will stop trying to avoid the pain and behave as if it is utterly helpless to change the situation.

Finally, when opportunities to escape are presented, this learned helplessness prevents any action. The only coping mechanism the animal uses is to be stoical and put up with the discomfort, not expending energy getting worked up about the adverse stimulus.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Learned_helplessness

Thus, the problem here seems to be not related to being a cult or a non-cult, but an issue that when people are encouraged to accept their state in life and submit in obedience to spiritual director, that someone can be encouraged to remain in slave like conditions without bettering themselves when they have the opportunity AND might think that this is something that Christ wants them to do.

Members of extremist cults are reported to experience similar events in the form of dissociation from all that is familiar, prohibitions against free expression and dissent, the regular mobilization of fear and guilt, and the establishment of an omnipotent master who demands self-sacrifice (Enroth, 1977; see also Andersen & Zimbardo, 1980; Singer, 1979).

Cultic systems, whether they are two-person relationships or larger social groups, are those that are totalistic in nature and that exercise exceptional controls over the individual freedoms of their members (Andersen, 1984). A cultic system can thus be identified based on the degree of such control simply by counting the number of features of psychological coercion (e.g., social isolation, threat of harm, confusion and guilt, love that is strictly contingent on certain actions) and deception (e.g., direct misrepresentation or lying, distortion of individual options) present in the system.

csj.org/studyindex/studywomen/study%20_womenbatter.htm

 

[PaulineOsinachi]

I dont still quite get the whole picture myself either. …

Centers were like coming to a home to me and I really miss going to them, its like a part of my life is missing. Yes, faithdancer, it truly is an irony of faith. I still live by their daily schedules as much as I can though I have lost the chance to receive the spiritual direction from them that would be much needed.

Tell me something Rafaela, where you outrightly asked never to come to an Opus Dei centre.
What about you just go right now to a centre of Opus Dei, what will that result to?

 

[Busy_bee]

Quote:
newlywed8;8389945]

Opus Dei’s founder, Spanish priest Jose Maria Escriva de Balaguer, was made a saint by Pope John Paul II.

I’d like to point out that Saints (who are known to us here on earth) are not “made” saints by the church. They are confirmed or should I say acknowledged to be saints. There are many saints who have not been, and may not be canonised here on earth. The saints are heroes of our faith and I believe that those saints that God in His goodness has shown to His church are to serve as models to encourage us on our way to Christ. It doesn’t matter how long it takes, and I don’t think that anyone can comment properly on this matter until he/she knows what exactly happened and what obtains for such a worker in the opus dei prelature.

 

[PaulineOsinachi]

French court completely absolves Dosnon School
On November 24, the Tribunal of Paris has completely cleared Dosnon School, which had been sued by Catherine Tissier, a former student and employee of the school.

This court decision reaffirms the complete exoneration of Opus Dei, an institution of the Catholic Church to which Catherine Tissier had belonged until the year 2000. This exoneration of Opus Dei had already been established by the French courts in 2010, a fact that some media had ignored.

On December 16, 2010, after nine years of investigations – in which Opus Dei actively cooperated, responding to all requests – the French court dismissed all charges against Opus Dei.

Shouldn’t this thread be closed?

 

[Rafaela]

I’d like to point out that Saints (who are known to us here on earth) are not “made” saints by the church. They are confirmed or should I say acknowledged to be saints. There are many saints who have not been, and may not be canonised here on earth. The saints are heroes of our faith and I believe that those saints that God in His goodness has shown to His church are to serve as models to encourage us on our way to Christ. It doesn’t matter how long it takes, and I don’t think that anyone can comment properly on this matter until he/she knows what exactly happened and what obtains for such a worker in the opus dei prelature.

A priest I once knew used to say, that all those whom are in heaven are saints, regardless of whether the church acknowledges them as such officially or not.

 

[Busy_bee]

If you truly see you no difference between girls being treated like indentured servants and women acting as housewives and stay-at-home-mothers, then you have a far more negative view of traditional feminine roles than I suspected

From the description in the article, it’s the same thing except housewives don’t even get a paycheck. Besides, if she believed that this was her calling and went for it, why cry foul now? It seems to me that she is complaining of a lack of kindness and consolation, which I think she ought to offer up to God. It is a great task she has, but whose isn’t? What I find worthy of note is the fact that she can’t be the only one working as a numerary assistant. So, what are the others doing to cope that she isn’t?

We are all human, and I hope that some good will come out of this for her soul. Please catholic brethren, pray for her!:byzsoc:
[BIBLEDRB]2 corinthians 4:16[/BIBLEDRB]

 

[Busy_bee]

On a more serious note, I would have expected a faithful Catholic to be the first to admit that there’s a significant difference between recruiting a young girl and a man old enough to understand what he’s getting into.

Are you saying that a girl is more immature than a man of the same age? You say recruiting. If you understand what a vocation means then you know that it is NOT about recruiting, but about choice for Love. It’s like saying you were around priests a lot so you were recruited into the priesthood. It does not work that way at all. This is not something you do without being aware of it’s effect. A vocation is not a job, it is a path for life! She cannot not have known that.

Moreover, the numerary assistants are essentially domestic servants (specifically of the old Victorian type). It seems like the least an organization like Opus Dei could do is treat their servants well.

You make it sound like they are miserable people who had nothing to do with their lives. I’m sure they would be insulted. I know I would be. They are essentially servants of God. They work in the organisation, but they are not working because of it. They want to work to serve God. Everybody must work in an organisation. I think that you have an underlying poor respect for domestic work and house-keeping. It is a great job and a highly important one too. I should know, I do domestic works. In the kingdom of God, the kings are the ones who serve, just as Jesus always did. These assistant numeraries are kings, and not poor helpless coerced servants. If you cannot accept that they are kings from this religious point of view, then maybe you can’t really understand and contribute to this issue right now, because this is why it is not slave trade. Wherever Jesus is a slave so are they. Where he is master so are they. It is He that they imitate and not workaholics.
I insist, if you look at this merely from a human point of view, you will never be able to justify the actions of the organisation. It is not the way of the world and so the world cannot understand it. It’s true.

[BIBLEDRB]John 13:16[/BIBLEDRB]

 

[AngryAtheist8]

Are you saying that a girl is more immature than a man of the same age? You say recruiting. If you understand what a vocation means then you know that it is NOT about recruiting, but about choice for Love. It’s like saying you were around priests a lot so you were recruited into the priesthood. It does not work that way at all. This is not something you do without being aware of it’s effect. A vocation is not a job, it is a path for life! She cannot not have known that.

You make it sound like they are miserable people who had nothing to do with their lives. I’m sure they would be insulted. I know I would be. They are essentially servants of God. They work in the organisation, but they are not working because of it. They want to work to serve God. Everybody must work in an organisation. I think that you have an underlying poor respect for domestic work and house-keeping. It is a great job and a highly important one too. I should know, I do domestic works. In the kingdom of God, the kings are the ones who serve, just as Jesus always did. These assistant numeraries are kings, and not poor helpless coerced servants. If you cannot accept that they are kings from this religious point of view, then maybe you can’t really understand and contribute to this issue right now, because this is why it is not slave trade. Wherever Jesus is a slave so are they. Where he is master so are they. It is He that they imitate and not workaholics.
I insist, if you look at this merely from a human point of view, you will never be able to justify the actions of the organisation. It is not the way of the world and so the world cannot understand it. It’s true.

[BIBLEDRB]John 13:16[/BIBLEDRB]

Were humans, we can’t help looking at things from a human point of view:shrug:

 

[AngryAtheist8]

Are you saying that a girl is more immature than a man of the same age? You say recruiting. If you understand what a vocation means then you know that it is NOT about recruiting, but about choice for Love. It’s like saying you were around priests a lot so you were recruited into the priesthood. It does not work that way at all. This is not something you do without being aware of it’s effect. A vocation is not a job, it is a path for life! She cannot not have known that.

You make it sound like they are miserable people who had nothing to do with their lives. I’m sure they would be insulted. I know I would be. They are essentially servants of God. They work in the organisation, but they are not working because of it. They want to work to serve God. Everybody must work in an organisation. I think that you have an underlying poor respect for domestic work and house-keeping. It is a great job and a highly important one too. I should know, I do domestic works. In the kingdom of God, the kings are the ones who serve, just as Jesus always did. These assistant numeraries are kings, and not poor helpless coerced servants. If you cannot accept that they are kings from this religious point of view, then maybe you can’t really understand and contribute to this issue right now, because this is why it is not slave trade. Wherever Jesus is a slave so are they. Where he is master so are they. It is He that they imitate and not workaholics.
I insist, if you look at this merely from a human point of view, you will never be able to justify the actions of the organisation. It is not the way of the world and so the world cannot understand it. It’s true.

[BIBLEDRB]John 13:16[/BIBLEDRB]

In what meaningful sense can they be described as kings?

 

[Busy_bee]

[BIBLEDRB]2 Corinthians 5:16
2 Corinthians 5:17[/BIBLEDRB]
If we can’t look at Christ from a human point of view, we shouldn’t do the same for his followers

[BIBLEDRB]2 Corinthians 6 [/BIBLEDRB]

This is the idea of a vocation as God’s servants. That’s why they are actually rich and are kings even though they seem poor. Christ never promised that his rewards were for this life.
Store up treasure for yourselves in heaven, he said, where moth cannot destroy them.

But then, you don’t believe in the bible, do you? Well, news flash: She did. That’s the real reason for embracing suffering and pain-for love of Christ and of his will. If you don’t believe this, suffering becomes pointless and a heavy yoke. Since you don’t believe, you cannot but see it as such.

 

[Protector]

AngryAtheist8;8804354]I was never a member of Opus Dei.
But it does remind me of a cult.

I read of one definition of a religious cult as being an organisation that brainwashes its’ members to believe things that they would normally dismiss as being either illegal, or immoral. Are you saying that the Opus Dei are one such organisation?

God Bless you Angry!

Protector.

 

[Protector]

Faithdancer;8804385]I had never heard of Church Universal and Triumphant before reading this thread, but here is a quote from the Wikipedia article on the group: “The church’s theology is a syncretistic belief system, including elements of Buddhism, Christianity, esoteric mysticism, the paranormal and alchemy, with a belief in angels, elves, fairies, and other beings it calls elementals (or spirits of nature). It centers on communications supposedly received from Ascended Masters through the Holy Spirit.”

There’s that term again, "Ascended Masters"

The following is the thread I started some time ago viz., “A Course in Miracles” (Shades of Madam Blavatsky).

Protector.

 

[Mark12]

I agree that they are respectful servants of God, what I do not agree, and that’s the issue here, is that they are Opus Dei’s servants/slaves.
They work more than 8 hours a day and they do not get paid overtime. For years (and in some countries they still not doing it) they didn’'t have paid their social security benefits. They do not have paid vacations, and they do not have money so they can not assist their families, which in many cases are in need (as most of the auxiliars come for families in need).
So Opus Dei “covers” with a “calling”, which most of us know that is slavery.
I was a numerary for 10 years, so I know what I’m talking about.

Mark

 

[Busy_bee]

I agree that they are respectful servants of God, what I do not agree, and that’s the issue here, is that they are Opus Dei’s servants/slaves.
They work more than 8 hours a day and they do not get paid overtime. For years (and in some countries they still not doing it) they didn’'t have paid their social security benefits. They do not have paid vacations, and they do not have money so they can not assist their families, which in many cases are in need (as most of the auxiliars come for families in need).
So Opus Dei “covers” with a “calling”, which most of us know that is slavery.
I was a numerary for 10 years, so I know what I’m talking about.

Mark

Were you now? Who cooked for you? Washed your clothes? Who cleaned the house? Drove around? Did your clothes fall off from the sky? Did you never go shopping? You didn’t see your family? Your loved ones weren’t visited and taken care of? You had NO vacation?
Are you sure your analysis is correct? Because I wouldn’t last that long if things are the way you say they are. Besides, I thought you get paid but everything is used according to how the FAMILY needs it? Does anyone expect to get paid for working for the family? Whatever you earn goes to the family (even though you use it too, you are part of the family)
If you were a numerary, then it is explained in a book about Opus dei that numeraries are celibate and they work doing any honest job. So your employer must have paid you-what do you mean working without pay? Besides, everyone knows Opusdei people like work very well. Tell me, were you the only one working?

I’m asking all these questions because from the way you sound, it is as though you consider yourself a victim. You couldn’t live with the demanding work, so you left. If it was slavery, how could you leave? Please explain.

Also, what does auxiliars come for families in need mean?

 

[Busy_bee]

I agree that they are respectful servants of God, what I do not agree, and that’s the issue here, is that they are Opus Dei’s servants/slaves.
So Opus Dei “covers” with a “calling”, which most of us know that is slavery.
I was a numerary for 10 years, so I know what I’m talking about.

Mark

Who is Opus Dei, Mark?
Whatever they do, it cannot be useless work, if people are working more than 8 hours. Are you saying that people willingly give up evrything they have for something bogus or useless? What kept you going? The fact that you were working for God or that you were working for Opus Dei? what do you mean when you say Opus Dei?

 

[LovePatience]

Who is Opus Dei, Mark?
Whatever they do, it cannot be useless work, if people are working more than 8 hours. Are you saying that people willingly give up evrything they have for something bogus or useless? What kept you going? The fact that you were working for God or that you were working for Opus Dei? what do you mean when you say Opus Dei?

That’s where the bitterness comes from when people decide to sue or express anger. They gave up a significant part of their life or resources for something bogus, and they can’t get it back. For what should a man give in exchange for his life? Is there any other Catholic organization that has a network, ODAN, with an aim to “provide information, outreach and support to those adversely impacted by the cult.” In many ways, Opus Dei misrepresents itself so it less of a truly informed choice; if it was a truly informed decision, people would not feel cheated.

How would you feel if you had been tricked out of something valuable to you?