2 Questions on Apostolic Succession

[Fr_Ambrose]

Eden:

So, you are not going to acknowledge the fact that JSmitty did not call the Orthodox “the Church of Satan” or that he clarify his statement before you arrived to state that Orthodoxy is not a false religion?

Please don’t try and make me out to be the bad guy here. What was said about the Orthodox Church was just very very nasty and shows that these people are out of touch with the mind of John Paul II and Benedict XVI and the contemporary Magisterium.

You are just going to attack the papacy instead of admitting you were incorrect about what he said?

I quoted Pope Gregory XVI AND it was in support of JSmitty’s contention. Would you explain how that is attacking Gregory VXI?

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

JSmitty2005:

Is this available online?

Try google.com or your favourite search engine.

 

[Eden]

Fr Ambrose:

Please don’t try and make me out to be the bad guy here.

You interpreted what JSmitty said as “The Orthodox Church is the Church of Satan” which you know is not true. Further, he clarified his answer before you even got to this thread by saying Orthodoxy is *not *a false religion!

What was said about the Orthodox Church was just very very nasty

Is it? Is it nasty to say that satan is the cause of the divisions in Christianity? I don’t think it is nasty at all. So, is the Orthodox position that God created the divisions in Christianity? Interesting theology.

Would you explain how that is attacking Gregory VXI?

Yes, I will. Gladly. I have never seen a credible source containing that quote. It’s all SSPX sites. Show me the encyclical in the larger context containing that exact quote and provide a link please.

 

[lpm59]

Eden:

You interpreted what JSmitty said as “The Orthodox Church is the Church of Satan” which you know is not true. Further, he clarified his answer before you even got to this thread by saying Orthodoxy is *not *a false religion!

Is it? Is it nasty to say that satan is the cause of the divisions in Christianity? I don’t think it is nasty at all. So, is the Orthodox position that God created the divisions in Christianity? Interesting theology.

Yes, I will. Gladly. I have never seen a credible source containing that quote. It’s all SSPX sites. Show me the encyclical in the larger context containing that exact quote and provide a link please.

You guys are killing me here. I’m getting a skad of emails saying I’m getting responses to a post I DIDN’T MAKE. So far, 7 emails. The one email I did get that was legit was just a laundry list of ortho web sites to show me the error of my thoughts. But I never did say or would say that the Eastern Christian churches were of Satan. For saying a lot less than that I had Michael Francis close my thread - you guys must have special dispensation in here. I have no trouble believing that a pope in 1832 said it, and if he said then I’m sure none of you will argue anything a pope said. But I DIDN’T SAY IT so please stop bombarding me with these emails, or tell Michael Francis to stop, or tell Karl Keating to stop. :banghead:

 

[mtr01]

Eden:

Yes, I will. Gladly. I have never seen a credible source containing that quote. It’s all SSPX sites. Show me the encyclical in the larger context containing that exact quote and provide a link please.

The encyclical **DOES NOT **contain that quote. There is nothing in Summo Iujiter Studio that even suggests this. In fact, the whole letter is addressed to Bavarians concerning mixed marriages between Catholics and heretics or schismatics. Here is an example of the actual text of the encyclical:

We shall praise St. Gregory the Great who expressly testifies that this indeed is the teaching of the Catholic Church. He says: “The holy universal Church teaches that it is not possible to worship God truly except in her and asserts that all who are outside of her will not be saved.” Official acts of the Church proclaim the same dogma. Thus, in the decree on faith which Innocent III published with the synod of Lateran IV, these things are written: “There is one universal Church of all the faithful outside of which no one is saved.” **Finally the same dogma is also expressly mentioned in the profession of faith proposed by the Apostolic See, not only that which all Latin churches use, but also that which the Greek Orthodox Church uses **and that which other Eastern Catholics use.

I thought Fr. Ambrose might be especially interested in the bolded sentence.

Perhaps this is the most strongly worded part of the encyclical:

Therefore, they must instruct them in the true worship of God, which is unique to the Catholic religion. Hence, exhort your faithful to weigh seriously how great an offense they commit against the supreme Deity and how cruelly they act toward themselves and their future children when, by rashly contracting a mixed marriage, they may expose themselves and their children to the danger of perversion. So that the gravity of such danger may appear more clearly, recall for them those salutary admonitions of the Apostles, of the Fathers, and of the canons, which warn that familiar association with heretics is to be shunned.

For those interested, the actual encyclical can be found online here: Summo Iujiter Studio

 

[Eden]

lpm59:

You guys are killing me here. I’m getting a skad of emails saying I’m getting responses to a post I DIDN’T MAKE.

I’m sorry but I don’t even know who you are ( hi ) and I haven’t e-mailed you or Karl Keating or Michael Francis. Are you responding to me? I’m confused since you quoted my post.

 

[Eden]

mtr01:

For those interested, the actual encyclical can be found online here: Summo Iujiter Studio

Perfect. Thanks.

 

[mtr01]

Eden:

Perfect. Thanks.

You’re quite welcome. Let me guess. It didn’t say what we’re supposed to believe it says, did it?

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

mtr01:

You’re quite welcome. Let me guess. It didn’t say what we’re supposed to believe it says, did it?

It’s worse than imagined. It says that I and my brothers and sisters are going to hell.

"…these misguided people attempt to persuade themselves and others that men are not saved only in the Catholic religion, but that even heretics may attain eternal life."

 

[Rand_Al_Thor]

Fr Ambrose:

It’s worse than imagined. It says that I and my brothers and sisters are going to hell.

"…these misguided people attempt to persuade themselves and others that men are not saved only in the Catholic religion, but that even heretics may attain eternal life."

Pax tecum!

It doesn’t say that the Orthodox are going to hell, Father. You want it to say that, so you are inferring something that isn’t there. The Catholic Church does not view the Orthodox as being heretics, rather they are viewed as being in schism with the Church of Rome. There is a difference. It has been my experience on these forums, and elsewhere, that Catholics are much more accepting of Orthodox than Orthodox are of Catholics.

In Christ,
Rand

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

Rand Al'Thor:

It doesn’t say that the Orthodox are going to hell, Father. You want it to say that, so you are inferring something that isn’t there. The Catholic Church does not view the Orthodox as being heretics, rather they are viewed as being in schism with the Church of Rome. There is a difference. It has been my experience on these forums, and elsewhere, that Catholics are much more accepting of Orthodox than Orthodox are of Catholics.

The Pope doesn’t seem to care about either heretics or schismatics. According to him, both are going into the eternal fires. I juist don’t see that as the “Catholics are much more accepting of the Orthodox.”

Pope Eugene IV (1431-1447), who infallibly taught at the Council of Florence:

“The Most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews, heretics, and schismatics can never be partakers of eternal life, but that they are to go into the eternal fire ‘which was prepared for the devil and his angels,’ (Mt. 25:41) unless before death they are joined with Her; … no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved unless they abide within the bosom and*** unity*** of the Catholic Church.”
​

 

[mtr01]

Fr Ambrose:

Pope Eugene IV (1431-1447), who infallibly

I’m glad to see you’ve accepted papal infallibility, father But seriously, we could play the dueling quotes game all day long. How about this one from an Orthodox site:

I, my Christians, read both about priests and about impious people and about atheists and about heretics; I investigated the depths of wisdom. All faiths are false, fake; all are of the devil…Only the faith of the pious and Orthodox Christians is good and holy. (Saint Kosmas Aitolos)

rusjournal.com/salvation.html

So I guess we’re both in the same boat then, huh?

 

[Eden]

Fr Ambrose:

It’s worse than imagined. It says that I and my brothers and sisters are going to hell.

"…these misguided people attempt to persuade themselves and others that men are not saved only in the Catholic religion, but that even heretics may attain eternal life."

Wait a minute! It doesn’t say what you insisted earlier that it did.
Fr. Ambrose:

In the words of Pope Gregory XVI: “False religions worship the Devil.”

Now you are going to make the claim that saying heretics can only attain eternal life by joining the Church is worse than saying they worship the devil? What?!

That is much tamer than your fake quote attributed to Pope Gregory XVI without a reference: "“False religions worship the Devil.”

In fact, what do the Orthodox teach about heretics and salvation?

I believe you owe us an apology for attributing such an inflammatory and bogus statement to a pope.

 

[Eden]

mtr01:

So I guess we’re both in the same boat then, huh?

Good one! Cheers.

I, my Christians, read both about priests and about impious people and about atheists and about heretics; I investigated the depths of wisdom. All faiths are false, fake; all are of the devil…Only the faith of the pious and Orthodox Christians is good and holy. (Saint Kosmas Aitolos)

This is worse than imagined. It says that I and my brothers and sisters are of the devil. This Orthodox saint doesn’t seem to care about either heretics or schismatics. According to him, both are going into the eternal fires!

 

[twf]

Father and others: Pope Eugene’s declaration is certainly among the most difficult of the EENS quotes to reconcile with the Church’s teaching of the possibility of salvation outside the visible Church. Either way though, it’s important to remember that we know where the Church is, but not where it isn’t. Dave Armstrong has discussed this topic extensively: ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ419.HTM

I’d also like to point out that difficult declarations such as this one do not disprove papal infallibility. It has been brought to my attention, as a Christian, a number of times that various Bible verses seem to contradict each other. That it is sometimes quite difficult to reconcile two Scriptural passages does not, similarly, disprove Scriptural inerrancy.

God bless

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

Eden:

This is worse than imagined. It says that I and my brothers and sisters are of the devil. This Orthodox saint doesn’t seem to care about either heretics or schismatics. According to him, both are going into the eternal fires!

But Saint Kosmas, a simple Greek preacher during the time of the Muslim dhimmitude, does NOT say that heretics and schismatics are going to hell.

Pope Eugene, on the other hand, from the powerful height of his papal throne, teaches very clearly that heretics and schismatics *are *bound for eternal fine.

 

[Catholic29]

Fr Ambrose:

Pope Eugene, on the other hand, from the powerful height of his papal throne, teaches very clearly that heretics are schismatics *are *bound for eternal fine.

Before one makes such lofty assertions, it would be nice for the one claiming them to cite sources.

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

Eden:

This is worse than imagined. It says that I and my brothers and sisters are of the devil. This Orthodox saint doesn’t seem to care about either heretics or schismatics. According to him, both are going into the eternal fires!

But Saint Kosmas, a simple Greek preacher during the time of the Muslim dhimmitude, does NOT say that heretics and schismatics are going to hell.

Pope Eugene, on the other hand, from the powerful height of his papal throne, teaches very clearly that heretics and schismatics *are *bound for eternal fire.

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

Catholic29:

Before one makes such lofty assertions, it would be nice for the one claiming them to cite sources.

Sorry, I should not have assumed that the Apologetics Forum has as much knowledge about this as the Eastern Christianity Forum where this statement of Pope Eugene’s has been discussed many times. It comes from the Bull Cantate Domino in which Pope Eugene IV, prematurely, announced the union of the Catholic, Orthodox, Armenian and Coptic Churches. In the process he condemned to hell all those who refused it.

Should we take this discussion over to the Eastern Christianity Forum, if anybody has any interest?

 

[Catholic29]

Fr Ambrose:

Pope Eugene, on the other hand, from the powerful height of his papal throne, teaches very clearly that heretics and schismatics *are *bound for eternal fire.

Before one makes such lofty assertions, it would be nice for the one claiming them to cite sources.