2 Questions on Apostolic Succession

[Fr_Ambrose]

jimmy:

I We don’t say that Arius is in hell either…
Your church has judged a man to hell.

I am not so sure if that is true. The reference to Arius being in hell is found in the Service which commemorates the Holy Fathers of the First Ecumenical Council in 325 AD. This service was composed long before the Orthodox Church came into existence in 1054 AD. This service was composed in the Catholic Church and under the authority of the Pope of Rome. So who was it that really judged Arius as being in hell? Not us! We didn’t exist in those centuries.

 

[Eden]

Fr Ambrose:

I am NOT lying, JSmitty. You DID call Orthodox a false religion.

This is what you wrote in message No. 16Fredricks then asks you in message No. 17 if you include Orthodoxy in the false religions which are the work of SatanAnd you reply in message No. 18 that of course Orthodoxy is included among the false religions which are the work of Satan

Sin of omission! You left out the subsequent post #21 which was posted before you arrived:

JSMITTY2005: Actually, let me clarify. I had made reference to “false religions” and “the work of Satan.” Clearly such schisms are “the work of Satan.” However, because they hold to the Catholic Faith without drifting into heresy, they cannot be said to be “false religions.”

All I can say is wow. Your blatant omission of post #21 which clarifies his position has not gone unnoticed here. We see what you are doing.

 

[Eden]

Fr Ambrose:

Pope Eugene’s condemnation of heretics and schismatics, using his power of binding and loosing, has been well discussed on the Eastern Christianity forum. A small search on his name will turn up many messages.

**What does Pope Eugene have to do with your fake quote supposedly from Pope Gregory XVI? **

---

**No apology for bearing false witness against a pope - just a deflection to a new topic! **

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

Eden:

Look what was written before you even got here-

JSMITTY2005: Actually, let me clarify. I had made reference to “false religions” and “the work of Satan.” Clearly such schisms are “the work of Satan.” However, because they hold to the Catholic Faith without drifting into heresy, they cannot be said to be “false religions.”

In message No. 22 Fredricks asks JSmitty:

How much of the Catholic faith must one hold to not be a false religion?

JSmitty answers that in message 23:

The entire Catholic faith

So unless JSmitty is willing to say that Orthodoxy holds the entire Catholic faith he is saying that Orthodoxy is a false religion.

 

[jimmy]

Fr Ambrose:

I am not so sure if that is true. The reference to Arius being in hell is found in the Service which commemorates the Holy Fathers of the First Ecumenical Council in 325 AD. This service was composed long before the Orthodox Church came into existence in 1054 AD. This service was composed in the Catholic Church and under the authority of the Pope of Rome. So who was it that really judged Arius as being in hell? Not us! We didn’t exist in those centuries.

When was this service composed and who composed it? Your liturgy may say it but ours doesn’t.

 

[JSmitty2005]

Fr Ambrose:

It was stated very unambiguously by JSmitty that Orthodoxy is among "all false religions are the work of Satan."

Read messages 16, 17 and 18.

I would think an apology ought to be forthcoming…

I owe you nor your schismatic brethren any apologies whatsoever. Don’t forget message 21 to know the context.

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

Eden:

Sin of omission! You left out the subsequent post #21 which was posted before you arrived:

JSMITTY2005: Actually, let me clarify. I had made reference to “false religions” and “the work of Satan.” Clearly such schisms are “the work of Satan.” However, because they hold to the Catholic Faith without drifting into heresy, they cannot be said to be “false religions.”

All I can say is wow. Your blatant omission of post #21 which clarifies his position has not gone unnoticed here. We see what you are doing.

And you have become stuck on message 21. Continue past 21 to messages 22 and 23 in which JSmitty returns to his original position of calling Orthodoxy a false religion because it does not hold the entire Catholic faith.

 

[Mickey]

Fr Ambrose:

But Saint Kosmas, a simple Greek preacher during the time of the Muslim dhimmitude, does NOT say that heretics and schismatics are going to hell.

Let us see what is written by some of the Orthodox faithful:

In the history of mankind there are 3 falls: The fall of Adam, of Judas the Iscariot and that of the Pope. The essence of falling into sin is always the same: the desire to become God by oneself. In this manner, a man insensibly equates himself with the devil, because he also wants to become God by himself to replace God with himself…The fall of the Pope lies exactly in this very thing; to want to replace the God-man with the man…" **Fr Justin Popovich of **Serbia

Neither the Papist nor the Protestant church can be considered as the True church of Christ.
**St. Nektarios of **Aegina

The Latins are not only schismatics but heretics…we did not separate from them for any other reason other than the fact that they are heretics. This is precisely why we must not unite with them unless they dismiss the addition from the Creed “filioque” and confess the Creed as we do."
St. Mark the Evgenikos (of Ephesus)

The papacy is included among the heretical weeds forever appearing in the church of God which is very often plagued and continues to plague the salvation of mankind in Christ; in being bad seeds and rotten members they are justly cut off from the healthy body and the Orthodox Catholic Church of Christ." Ecumenical Patriarch Anthimos 1895

Through the dogma of “Infallibility” the Western church lost its spiritual freedom. It lost its beauty and balance, and was deprived of the wealth of the grace of the Holy Spirit, the presence of Christ- from spirit and soul ended up a dead body.
**St. Nektarios of **Aegina

 

[JSmitty2005]

Fr Ambrose:

And you have become stuck on message 21. Continue past 21 to messages 22 and 23 in which JSmitty returns to his original position of calling Orthodoxy a false religion because it does not hold the entire Catholic faith.

That is NOT what those messages say. In fact, it’s not even close. See post 26!

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

Let us see what is written by some of the Orthodox faithful:

In the history of mankind there are 3 falls: The fall of Adam, of Judas the Iscariot and that of the Pope. The essence of falling into sin is always the same: the desire to become God by oneself. In this manner, a man insensibly equates himself with the devil, because he also wants to become God by himself to replace God with himself…The fall of the Pope lies exactly in this very thing; to want to replace the God-man with the man…" **Fr Justin Popovich of **Serbia

Neither the Papist nor the Protestant church can be considered as the True church of Christ.
**St. Nektarios of **Aegina

The Latins are not only schismatics but heretics…we did not separate from them for any other reason other than the fact that they are heretics. This is precisely why we must not unite with them unless they dismiss the addition from the Creed “filioque” and confess the Creed as we do."
St. Mark the Evgenikos (of Ephesus)

The papacy is included among the heretical weeds forever appearing in the church of God which is very often plagued and continues to plague the salvation of mankind in Christ; in being bad seeds and rotten members they are justly cut off from the healthy body and the Orthodox Catholic Church of Christ." Ecumenical Patriarch Anthimos 1895

Through the dogma of “Infallibility” the Western church lost its spiritual freedom. It lost its beauty and balance, and was deprived of the wealth of the grace of the Holy Spirit, the presence of Christ- from spirit and soul ended up a dead body.
**St. Nektarios of **Aegina

Not one of these quotes say that heretics and schismatics are going to hell. I think that is an important and noteworthy difference between them and what Pope Eugene and other Popes taught about the fate of non-Catholics.

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

jimmy:

When was this service composed and who composed it? Your liturgy may say it but ours doesn’t.

None of the Eastern services are post 9th century, the time of Saint John of Damascus who was a profilic liturgical writer. He was of course a Roman Catholic saint in obedience to the Pope. This particular service is of an earlier date (but I am not sure exactly when) and so it this was definitely composed before the existence of the Orthodox Church at the time when the Pope was in charge.

 

[Mickey]

Fr Ambrose:

Not one of these quotes say that heretics and schismatics are going to hell. I think that is an important and noteworthy difference between them and what Pope Eugene and other Popes taught about the fate of non-Catholics.

Pretty viscious nonetheless.

 

[Mickey]

Do the Orthodox really claim that Arius is in hell?

 

[JSmitty2005]

Mickey:

Do the Orthodox really claim that Arius is in hell?

Wouldn’t you say that even us Catholics assume that even if it’s not officially declared?

 

[Mickey]

JSmitty2005:

Wouldn’t you say that even us Catholics assume that even if it’s not officially declared?

I did not think it was our place to declare and judge who has been eternally damned to hell.

 

[Eden]

What does Orthodoxy teach about the divisions in Christianity? I keep asking this but it has not been answered, so I will make it bigger this time:

Does Orthodoxy teach that the divisions in Christianity are not the “works of satan” but the “works of God”?

 

[clmowry]

Even with the acompaning wonders I would question why anyone called by the Spirit would remain outside the Church.

Paul was called in an extrordinary way but he still came to Peter.

He did not form the Paul Church of Christ.

Chuck

TNT:

Read St Francis de Sales - The Catholic Controversy.

Immediate selection by God outside the norm that He gave to the Church requires as a minimum, wonders signs and miracles so that the common man may know of the “selected” person’s authenticity. Without such, anyone with the “gift of gab” or illusions, can claim an immediate assignment from the HS.

 

[JSmitty2005]

Mickey:

I did not think it was our place to declare and judge who has been eternally damned to hell.

In light of the Church’s teachings on the consequences of heresy, it doesn’t take a theologian to know where Arius, Pelagius, Luther, Calvin, etc. are!

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

Mickey:

Pretty viscious nontheless.

Very mild compared to what the Popes teach. We can go through the official papal statements starting from the 12th century with Pope Innocent III and up to Pope Pius XI in the 20th century and see how the constant teaching of Peter through the Popes is the damnation of all those not in communion with the Popes.

 

[JSmitty2005]

Fr Ambrose:

Very mild compared to what the Popes teach. We can go through the official papal statements starting from the 12th century with Pope Innocent III and up to Pope Pius XI in the 20th century and see how the constant teaching of Peter through the Popes is the damnation of all those not in communion with the Popes.

I don’t think you can say that considering that Fr. Feeney was condemned.