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frommi
Guest
What does Pius X have to do with this?
Are we supposed to disregard andy pope since then?
JPII created Roger Mahony a cardinal…B16 has shown no propensity to discipline the man…are they in error?
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Are we supposed to disregard andy pope since then?
JPII created Roger Mahony a cardinal…B16 has shown no propensity to discipline the man…are they in error?
W
Walking_Home
Guest
Really—Card. Mahony on his own authority–granted an exception to the reprobate practice of using glass vessels. This is quite odd—since Rome has specifically stated --that individual bishops and their conferences do not have the faculty to do this.
As to the Card. not being over-ruled—well frommi—the instruction RS-2004 which was mandated by our late Pope–does reprobated the use of glass—so this in itself— over rules Card. Mahony.
I guess what it comes down to—is if Card. Mahony considers himself–as his own Pope–and outside the jurisdiction of Rome.
vatican.va/roman_curia/co…#Chapter%20III
[27.] As early as the year 1970, the Apostolic See announced the cessation of all experimentation as regards the celebration of Holy Mass[62] and reiterated the same in 1988.[63] Accordingly, individual Bishops and their Conferences do not have the faculty to permit experimentation with liturgical texts or the other matters that are prescribed in the liturgical books. In order to carry out experimentation of this kind in the future, the permission of the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments is required. It must be in writing, and it is to be requested by the Conference of Bishops. In fact, it will not be granted without serious reason. As regards projects of inculturation in liturgical matters, the particular norms that have been established are strictly and comprehensively to be observed.[64]
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frommi
Guest
Well…no bishop is “under the jurisdiction of Rome”…it’s not set up that way canonically…decisions that the Pope makes for the diocese of Rome don’t necessailry affect the entire Catholic Church…but anyway…
That’s not the point…
This thread is about the RE Congress…the first poster said that the speakers were a bunch of heretics…then went on to define heresy incorrectly…then went on to compare a Cardinal to Hitler.
In response to my questions, people have begun slinging arrows about liturgical abuses as if they would be anywhere close to equal footings with denying a dogma of the church.
There is zero evidence of any speaker at the RE Congress being a heretic…there is no evidence of Cardinal Mahony being a heretic…
All that exists is pointless clanging of cymbals that can’t answer a cogent line of questioning with anything but “well…he allows liturgical dancers”.
Ask yourself why those are consistently the crutches that are used here?
Why would people who aren’t even from this man’s archdiocese find it necessary to be upset by what goes on across the country? They aren’t even subject to his decisions…but they find it necessary to take half the story and fire away.
It’s really a shame.
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Walking_Home
Guest
What Church are you part of. Oh I forgot–the Pope is just another bishop --with no authority over the other bishops. Thankyou for reminding me.
vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccdds/documents/rc_con_ccdds_doc_20040423_redemptionis-sacramentum_en.html#Chapter%20III
14.] “The regulation of the Sacred Liturgy depends solely on the authority of the Church, which rests specifically with the Apostolic See and, according to the norms of law, with the Bishop.[34]
[15.] The Roman Pontiff, “the Vicar of Christ and the Pastor of the universal Church on earth, by virtue of his supreme office enjoys full, immediate and universal ordinary power, which he may always freely exercise”[35], also by means of communication with the pastors and with the members of the flock.
[16.] “It pertains to the Apostolic See to regulate the Sacred Liturgy of the universal Church, to publish the liturgical books and to grant the recognitio for their translation into vernacular languages, as well as to ensure that the liturgical regulations, especially those governing the celebration of the most exalted celebration of the Sacrifice of the Mass, are everywhere faithfully observed”.[36]
[17.] “The Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments attends to those matters that pertain to the Apostolic See as regards the regulation and promotion of the Sacred Liturgy, and especially the Sacraments, with due regard for the competence of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. It fosters and enforces sacramental discipline, especially as regards their validity and their licit celebration”. Finally, it “carefully seeks to ensure that the liturgical regulations are observed with precision, and that abuses are prevented or eliminated whenever they are detected”[37]. In this regard, according to the tradition of the universal Church, pre-eminent solicitude is accorded the celebration of Holy Mass, and also to the worship that is given to the Holy Eucharist even outside Mass.
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frommi
Guest
I fail to see where anything I’ve said contradicts any of this…as a well known cardinal once said…the pope can’t exist without the college of bishops and the college of bishops can’t exist without the pope…
And again…what any of this has to do with the speakers at an RE congress is beyond me…
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aimee
Guest
So Frommi are you speaking
?
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Walking_Home
Guest
Quote=frommi
Well…no bishop is “under the jurisdiction of Rome”…it’s not set up that way canonically…decisions that the Pope makes for the diocese of Rome don’t necessailry affect the entire Catholic Church…but anyway…
frommi–I must say–you are good at convoluting the issue.—to where the directives from Rome only affect the diocese of Rome—this is quite good.
What you said above–contradicts–the full universal power and authority of the Pope.
As to who can’t exists without who----the main pt of this matter–is who holds the full universal power and authority.
In case you are still under the impression that the directives are only for the diocese of Rome.
vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccdds/documents/rc_con_ccdds_doc_20040423_redemptionis-sacramentum_en.html#Chapter%20III
[3.] The norms contained in the present Instruction are to be understood as pertaining to liturgical matters in the Roman Rite, and, mutatis mutandis, in the other Rites of the Latin Church that are duly acknowledged by law.
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Shoshana
Guest
So Frommi are you speaking
Code:
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frommi
Guest
That’s cute…I said “not necessairly”…for example, if the Pope (probably through the vicar of Rome) were to make a statement that no mass could begin before 4pm on the vigil of a feast…that would not always be binding universally.
There are no altar girls in the diocese of Rome…that is not something that all bishops are bound to.
You are convulting the issue.
Again…
I ask…
What is the issue with the RE Congress…what happens there that is heretical? What happens there that threatens the unity of the Catholic Church?
Please tell me.
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Walking_Home
Guest
frommi, frommi—you and I were speaking of bishops and how they can go astray and disregard the directives from Rome You came in with no bishop is under Romes jurisdiction. Don’t twist this now to something else.
Now—the RE Congress–well frommi—how orthodox or un-orthodox the speakers are–does affect the Church.
C
chicago
Guest
Whatever their take on the faith, one must admit that this is quite the lineup of prominent voices within the Church over the past 30 some years.
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frommi
Guest
What I said was true…no bishop is under Rome’s “jurisdiction”…the curia works for the bishop,not the other way around…it’s a complex relationship…one that can’t be described in corporate terms.
And I ask again…
What speakers are unorthodox…and what do they promote that threatens the deposit of the faith? Please tell me.
C
Captain_Mike
Guest
Frommi, You want to know what hurts the unity of the Church at the going ons at Cardinal Roger Mahony’s Religious Education Congress? You have speakers as Edwina Gatley, Diana Hayes, Fr. Pattrick Brennan, Tom Beaudoin,Fr. Richard Rhor, Peter C. Phan, Thomas Groome, Fr. John Heagle, Bill Huesbch, Dr. Greer Gordon, Fr. Richard Spraks, Fran Ferder , Fr.Michael Crosby, Fr. Donald Cozzens, Fr. Timothy Radcliff OP, Fr. James MartinSJ, Kathleen Chesto, etc…( I will get you more names if you need) teaching that women can become priests and The Pope is wrong saying women can’t be priests! they hurt many women and mislead them into thinking they can someday become priests. It is never going to happen! So basically these “speakers” are causing a disunity and spiritually abusing these women. These and many other speakers promote homosexual sex is just fine if you choose that for your lifestyle(AKA Moral Relativism!). All of this is spiritual abuse and causes disunity. Frommi for you know clearly what the Church teaches on these subjects. These speakers also downplay and many outright attack the Teachings on The Papacy, Marian Dogmas, and anything goes “masses” except for following GRIM. This causes such a spiritual rapping of the innocent and uneducated Catholic person. I have heard these speakers for my self over the years and have spoken out during some of these speakers “sessions” at this annual “Congress”.(I have heard some speakers make fun of in a demeaning way our late Holy Father John Paul II, Mother Theresa, and our current Holy Father Pope BennedictXVI when he was Cardinal. It was almost as demons were comming out of these certain speakers , as they spoke out against Cardinal Ratzinger. Actually I plan on publicly protesting this Congress. If people are intrested The first Saturday of March is when I was told people will be holding a public Prayer and protest at this " Congress". See ya all there!
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Walking_Home
Guest
Well frommi—you and I belong to two different Churches. Mine has a Pope—head and authority of the universal Church. Yours—what can I say—that has not been said before.
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frommi
Guest
Quite interesting…the orthodox churches are considered part of the ‘universal church’ but they don’t put the Pope as the supreme allied commander that you do…
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frommi
Guest
Well again I say…what’s the difference between speaking out against Cardinal Mahony and Cardinal Ratzinger?
Do you have any quotes…or maybe the ability to use a comma?
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Walking_Home
Guest
I must have missed the news—when the Catholic Church converted to Orthodox.
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frommi
Guest
We didn’t convert…I’m just pointing out that the universal church stretches a bit beyond the “roman Catholic” one that puts the Pope front and center.
But again…you’re so busy calling me unCatholic…I don’t know what difference any of this makes.
So I’ll ask again…
What is the issue with the RE Congress…you still haven’t given one…what makes it heretical?
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Walking_Home
Guest
I had no idea–the Catholic Church now was in full union with all those who do not agree with the papacy. The Church has become just an umbrella- covering all —unity of Faith, belief, teachings --is not required. The Church has no structure.
The RE Congress—are All the speakers–in full unity with the Catholic Faith–belief-teachings.
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bones_IV
Guest
You’re not catholic my friend.
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