2010 Lay Orthodox Survey on Attitudes Toward Orthodox-Catholic Reunion

[Hesychios]

When man learns to touch his elbow with his tongue, then we will see our Orthodox brothers come under the chair of St.Peter. Till then we must keep trying.

We may have genuine Christian unity some day, but we don’t belong under anyone else’s chair. You stay out from under our chairs, and we’ll stay out from under yours

We have our own Patriarchs and Metropolitans anyway, and we choose them essentially the same way we have since the Apostles founded our church, through synodal election.

If you want genuine Christian unity, with shared communion and concelebration conditioned only on a common Orthodox faith, that is always a possibility, it is what we pray for.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Maybe we need to just get the pope and the patriarch of Constantinople to start getting closer. Maybe they need to go see Blackhawk Down, ET, Lord of the Rings, and some Indiana Jones flicks together. Sharing the same popcorn and Pepsi, seeing these feel-good flicks…who knows! Or maybe they could go back and watch the Red Sox vs. Yankees ALCS from 2004 and get inspired and emotional together. They need to do some bonding—sports, making smores, listening to some Traveling Wilbury’s tunes, sharing a brewsky, something, anything! We need to get these two together!

Or perhaps a poker game…“I’ll see your filioque and raise your substitutionary Anselmian atonement fifty drachma!”

“I’ll call. I’ll raise your ZZ Top beard and lack of pews as well as your baklava”

 

[Patrick_Joshua]

Maybe we need to just get the pope and the patriarch of Constantinople to start getting closer. Maybe they need to go see Blackhawk Down, ET, Lord of the Rings, and some Indiana Jones flicks together. Sharing the same popcorn and Pepsi, seeing these feel-good flicks…who knows! Or maybe they could go back and watch the Red Sox vs. Yankees ALCS from 2004 and get inspired and emotional together. They need to do some bonding—sports, making smores, listening to some Traveling Wilbury’s tunes, sharing a brewsky, something, anything! We need to get these two together!

Or perhaps a poker game…“I’ll see your filioque and raise your substitutionary Anselmian atonement fifty drachma!”

“I’ll call. I’ll raise your ZZ Top beard and lack of pews as well as your baklava”

Haha!

 

[prodromos]

When man learns to touch his elbow with his tongue, then we will see our Orthodox brothers come under the chair of St.Peter.

All one needs is a sharp blade and some local anaesthetic

 

[Mike2010]

For quite a while Anglicans and the Orthodox were much closer to reunion than the OC and the CC.

I’m not too familiar with the above situation. But the Anglicans still didn’t have all the Sacraments. Were they close in a way that there was an Ordinariate to the Orthodox or something like that?

 

[Bluegoat]

I’m not too familiar with the above situation. But the Anglicans still didn’t have all the Sacraments. Were they close in a way that there was an Ordinariate to the Orthodox or something like that?

Well, the Orthodox did not necessarily have the same view of Anglican Sacraments as Catholics do, nor the same view of Anglican apostolic orders. And many don’t think that Catholics have the sacraments either. That was not really, as far as I understand it, the primary issue in any case. There was a time when many people thought that there would be some sort of Anglican Orthodox union in their lifetime. It’s very sad that it didn’t in fact happen.

I am not up on the details of what went on, I’ll see if I can hunt up an article for you.

 

[Hesychios]

That is important, but the Protestants deny 5 of the 7 Sacraments. The Orthodox and Catholics have all 7 valid Sacraments.

Actually, Orthodox have more than seven valid sacraments.

 

[Hesychios]

… There was a time when many people thought that there would be some sort of Anglican Orthodox union in their lifetime. It’s very sad that it didn’t in fact happen. …

I had often mused upon this, and thought it to be an opportunity lost. Canterbury could have become a Patriarchate for one thing.

However, the more I think about it, perhaps it was for the best. Perhaps even God prevented it. If the Anglican communion had joined with Holy Orthodoxy there is no telling what kind of problems that could have brought into the church on down through the years.

 

[Bluegoat]

I had often mused upon this, and thought it to be an opportunity lost. Canterbury could have become a Patriarchate for one thing.

However, the more I think about it, perhaps it was for the best. Perhaps even God prevented it. If the Anglican communion had joined with Holy Orthodoxy there is no telling what kind of problems that could have brought into the church on down through the years.

I tend to assume that it would have prevented some of this - at least those who prefer a liberalized Christianity would have had to actually leave to set up a new denomination. But you may well be right. Perhaps in the future we will see some individual parishes or even diocese take the route of becoming Orthodox.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

The Anglicans would’ve grown ZZ Top beards but you guys would inherit the women’s ordination debates and headaches!

I had often mused upon this, and thought it to be an opportunity lost. Canterbury could have become a Patriarchate for one thing.

However, the more I think about it, perhaps it was for the best. Perhaps even God prevented it. If the Anglican communion had joined with Holy Orthodoxy there is no telling what kind of problems that could have brought into the church on down through the years.

 

[Bluegoat]

The Anglicans would’ve grown ZZ Top beards but you guys would inherit the women’s ordination debates and headaches!

As long as the women ordinands weren’t growing the beards…

 

[MariaG]

Hey Gurney my friend, long time!

I kinda agree with what you say however the problem is that you cannot sacrifice truth for the sake of being united.

If the catholic church were to compromise on it’s teachings on papal infallibility etc it would a compromise to what it holds to be true. Same for the orthodox and their beliefs.

I honestly cannot see a reunion ever happening without one coming to the other the way a lot of anglicans are coming back to the catholic church.

The only union I can see (although still holding a great love and respect for our orthodox brethren) is under the holy catholic apostolic church with the vicar of christ as the head of the church on earth.

Yes.

Modern discussions of original sin, based on the CC, are careful to say that individuals are not guilty of original sin, they simply inherit the effects of the guilt. Here is the relevant passage from the CCC - I think it is clear how it differs from some earlier explanations.

This is much closer to the Eastern understanding IMO.

I agree with Hesychios though - it causes a lot of confusion.

 

[MariaG]

When man learns to touch his elbow with his tongue, then we will see our Orthodox brothers come under the chair of St.Peter. Till then we must keep trying.

Well, I have to say, I have seen a woman touch her elbow with her tongue.

But since I don’t see reunification happening anytime in my lifetime, you must have meant a physical male and not “man” including women in it

But miracles can happen

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

They’re simply cooking the borsch, humus, and baklava

As long as the women ordinands weren’t growing the beards…

 

[jimmy]

Yes, that is true. I am glad you noticed that and mentioned it.

This is largely due, I think, to Pope John Paul, and it comes from his belief that the Catholic church could learn from it’s “other lung” (a term I don’t personally care for). So he, or probably his staff, engaged in harmonizing when they put the new catechism together. Many modern internet Catholics do not have a memory of the Catholic church before Pope John Paul, but they have been influenced by his catechism.

Speaking from memory right now, I would say it comes off rather poorly in some places, making the church actually seem to be saying two contradictory things at the same time.

It is partly due to Pope John Paul II, but I think it goes back to the Nouvelle theologie which has an appearance that is much more eastern. Take for example Henri de Lubac who was censured for one of his books which rejected an absolute seperation between nature and Grace.

 

[Mike2010]

Well, the Orthodox did not necessarily have the same view of Anglican Sacraments as Catholics do, nor the same view of Anglican apostolic orders. And many don’t think that Catholics have the sacraments either. That was not really, as far as I understand it, the primary issue in any case. There was a time when many people thought that there would be some sort of Anglican Orthodox union in their lifetime. It’s very sad that it didn’t in fact happen.

I am not up on the details of what went on, I’ll see if I can hunt up an article for you.

If you could find something on this, it would be interesting to read. Thanks for the response.

 

[Bluegoat]

If you could find something on this, it would be interesting to read. Thanks for the response.

This was written in 1920, and gives a summary up to that time. It’s a bit dry, but very thorough.