2010 Lay Orthodox Survey on Attitudes Toward Orthodox-Catholic Reunion

[gurneyhalleck1]

Not in the SLIGHTEST, Louie. Seriously man. MTV and Oprah are two of the leading brainwashers of women and young people in this country. Instead of “what would Jesus do?” you hear more “What would Oprah or Jersey Shore do?” Pathetic.

gurneyhalleck1;7174473:

you making fun of me here?

 

[Hesychios]

I would look at numbers. The amount of Catholics in this country is far more than Orthodox Christians. Generally speaking I would venture to say that the converts to Orthodoxy, like yourself, are the most learned and theologically savvy folks in the Orthodox community. …

One might think so, and I would have assumed so.

But my experience has shown me something different. My parish is an old Russian parish established over 100 years in Chicago, and more than half of the members are cradle Orthodox from the local community. English speaking American cradle Orthodox.

The difference, I think, is that we pray what we believe, literally. If one is devout and follows the whole liturgical cycle (including the liturgy of the hours - and this isn’t imaginative thematic stuff where the believer gets to plug in what comes into their heads and mull over it, it is the formal prayer life of the church composed by monks and bishops over the centuries) as much as possible one will become very well catechized. Some say every babushka is a theologian. It is what empowers the laity in their faith.

And one doesn’t see liturgists and musical directors messing with the worship, it isn’t done and literally cannot be done. The text of the liturgical cycle is basically sacrosanct, and that includes the hymns.

 

[Bluegoat]

One might think so, and I would have assumed so.

But my experience has shown me something different. My parish is an old Russian parish established over 100 years in Chicago, and more than half of the members are cradle Orthodox from the local community. English speaking American cradle Orthodox.

The difference, I think, is that we pray what we believe, literally. If one is devout and follows the whole liturgical cycle (including the liturgy of the hours - and this isn’t imaginative thematic stuff where the believer gets to plug in what comes into their heads and mull over it, it is the formal prayer life of the church composed by monks and bishops over the centuries) as much as possible one will become very well catechized. Some say every babushka is a theologian. It is what empowers the laity in their faith.

And one doesn’t see liturgists and musical directors messing with the worship, it isn’t done and literally cannot be done. The text of the liturgical cycle is basically sacrosanct, and that includes the hymns.

I’ve seen a similar pattern in Anglican parishes that do not use the watered down liturgies. I think in the area of Catholic catechis, this will be a serious problem. The liturgy has got to be the primary vehicle for teaching the fundamental truthes of Faith. People will not all come to classes, or read books, or even want to have theological discussions. But if they week after week hear the substance of the faith, in memorable poetry, they will suck it in like a nursing baby.

 

[Bluegoat]

This has not been my observation, Meghan. Could you elaborate please? Thanks.

Yes.

Modern discussions of original sin, based on the CC, are careful to say that individuals are not guilty of original sin, they simply inherit the effects of the guilt. Here is the relevant passage from the CCC - I think it is clear how it differs from some earlier explanations.

04 How did the sin of Adam become the sin of all his descendants? the whole human race is in Adam “as one body of one man”.293 By this “unity of the human race” all men are implicated in Adam’s sin, as all are implicated in Christ’s justice. Still, the transmission of original sin is a mystery that we cannot fully understand. But we do know by Revelation that Adam had received original holiness and justice not for himself alone, but for all human nature. By yielding to the tempter, Adam and Eve committed a personal sin, but this sin affected the human nature that they would then transmit in a fallen state.294 It is a sin which will be transmitted by propagation to all mankind, that is, by the transmission of a human nature deprived of original holiness and justice. and that is why original sin is called “sin” only in an analogical sense: it is a sin “contracted” and not “committed” - a state and not an act.

405 Although it is proper to each individual,295 original sin does not have the character of a personal fault in any of Adam’s descendants. It is a deprivation of original holiness and justice, but human nature has not been totally corrupted: it is wounded in the natural powers proper to it, subject to ignorance, suffering and the dominion of death, and inclined to sin - an inclination to evil that is called concupiscence". Baptism, by imparting the life of Christ’s grace, erases original sin and turns a man back towards God, but the consequences for nature, weakened and inclined to evil, persist in man and summon him to spiritual battle.

This is much closer to the Eastern understanding IMO.

I agree with Hesychios though - it causes a lot of confusion.

 

[Javl]

Originally posted by Nine_Two
A Jew who converts to Catholicism is still an ethnic Jew, but they are no longer members of the Jewish religion, and they do not have a distinct identity within Catholicism.

Yes, a Jew who converts to Catholicism is still a Jew. But he/she keeps his/her cultural identity and customs and they do have a distinct identity within the Church. Check with the following: hebrewcatholic.org

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Javl]

From my experience many Roman Catholics do not know or understand Catholicism, including more than a few apologists for it.

I agree with you. Many “Catholics” are not grounded at all in their faith and therefore do not know or understand it. The majority are Cafeteria Catholics who pick and choose what suits them. Just about the same can be said for the some of the so-called “apologists”. They may have a fervor for their religion, but not faith, and therefore may err in their defense of it.

Although the many Orthodox I have spoken to and dialoged with have been knowledgeable, I am sure the same situation exists with Orthodox adherents.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Hesychios]

Although the many Orthodox I have spoken to and dialoged with have been knowledgeable, I am sure the same situation exists with Orthodox adherents.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

You are certainly right about that.

 

[Nine_Two]

Yes, a Jew who converts to Catholicism is still a Jew. But he/she keeps his/her cultural identity and customs and they do have a distinct identity within the Church. Check with the following: hebrewcatholic.org

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

They have a distinctive identity in the same way as Irish Catholics, or French Catholics, or Polish Catholics, or German Catholics (etc.) all have a distinctive identity. It is purely cultural and though it may affect the expressions of the religious life, it has no effect on belief or community.

 

[Javl]

They have a distinctive identity in the same way as Irish Catholics, or French Catholics, or Polish Catholics, or German Catholics (etc.) all have a distinctive identity. It is purely cultural and though it may affect the expressions of the religious life, it has no effect on belief or community.

Yes and no. In the past, Jews who embraced Catholic Christianity, or Christianity in general, had to give up thier Jewish identity completely. Not so any longer. The Hebrew Catholic community is considered another rite within Catholicism. The Catholic Jew still follows the same customs he/she did before becoming Catholic. To the Jewish Catholic, Catholic Christianity is the completion and fulfillment of Judaism as prophesied in Scripture. According to Benedict XVI, the Jew, like the Eastern Catholics, are in the Church, but are not Latinized. They can wear their Hebrew garb, wear the yarmulka, the tsi-tsi, etc. and their Liturgy is in Hebrew and or Aramaic. They can also still hold to the original Hebrew holydays. There may and can be changes, but they are still Jewish.
Shalom haMeshiach.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[dcointin]

I absolutely agree.
That sounds appropriate. A negative opinion of some aspects of Roman Catholicism, such as theological innovation for example, is not a negative opinion of Roman Catholics, or even Roman Catholicism in general, but it is enough to block intercommunion and is liable to be discussed.
I am not sure if I understand you here.

Are you saying that the fact the Orthodox “would only consider reunion if Catholics abandoned all dogmas not shared by the Orthodox” is evidence of the strong anti-Catholic bias they would have brought with them from protestantism? Or are you stating this as a second observation, distinct and unrelated to the first?
It does not follow. Orthodoxy is “too Catholic”. It does all the same things the Roman Catholics do, three times over usually, unapologetically and often better that the Roman Catholic do. When I first visited an eastern parish and saw them making full prostrations, kissing icons and priests hands I was shocked and extremely uneasy. :bowdown::bowdown::bowdown:

I had been a practicing Roman Catholic for fifty years. We never kissed statues and pictures on the walls and our priests hands, and we didn’t cross ourselves as often, we didn’t confess in the open in from of others … we didn’t put our noses and foreheads to the floor and leave our booty’s in the air for all the world to see

Anyone who converts to Orthodoxy has to shed inhibitions and an aversion to making the sign of the cross and a ‘Faith and Works’ outlook toward salvation as well as church authority, because it is in your face big time.
That is unfortunate and tactless. I think it is rude and counterproductive. However, I remember hearing that same kind of thing in conversation at the eastern Catholic parish I belonged to for a few years. Many of the biggest and most vocal critics were former Roman Catholics themselves, now eastern Catholics.

I think that sometimes Catholic and Orthodox nuns in habit are mistaken for Muslim women from a distance. They must take great care to wear their crosses prominently. It would surely be a shame to dedicate ones life to be one of the few holy ones, set aside for God’s work, and often mistaken for a different sort of person altogether.
I greeted in Catholic and Orthodox parishes for years and saw many visitors. Most for one reason or another choose not to come back. But I think we agree that it does not make sense to be boorishly insulting.
I would also say that there are misconceptions in Roman Catholicism of what Orthodoxy really is.

I wasn’t as clear as I should have been. I don’t mean that converts to Orthodoxy from Protestantism are baised against Catholicism because of its traditional piety such as the sign of the cross, but that they’re retained a general bias on the basis of other factors. I can only say that this is a personal observation, particularly among Orthodox traditionalists. I’m not saying that theological disagreement is inappropriate, or that it should be ignored in favor of reunion, only that I get the sense among many that they oppose the idea out of emotion, which affects how they approach the idea theologically. We have some excellent discussions here, and I don’t think this is the case with many posters, in particular with former Catholics such as yourself.

 

[Nine_Two]

Yes and no. In the past, Jews who embraced Catholic Christianity, or Christianity in general, had to give up thier Jewish identity completely. Not so any longer. The Hebrew Catholic community is considered another rite within Catholicism. The Catholic Jew still follows the same customs he/she did before becoming Catholic. To the Jewish Catholic, Catholic Christianity is the completion and fulfillment of Judaism as prophesied in Scripture. According to Benedict XVI, the Jew, like the Eastern Catholics, are in the Church, but are not Latinized. They can wear their Hebrew garb, wear the yarmulka, the tsi-tsi, etc. and their Liturgy is in Hebrew and or Aramaic. They can also still hold to the original Hebrew holydays. There may and can be changes, but they are still Jewish.
Shalom haMeshiach.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

That is quite a frightening innovation.

 

[Javl]

That is quite a frightening innovation.

Why is it, or should it be? After all, Jesus, Mary, Joseph, Peter, Paul and all the early believers were all Jewish. It was we gentiles who changed everything.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Nine_Two]

Why is it, or should it be? After all, Jesus, Mary, Joseph, Peter, Paul and all the early believers were all Jewish. It was we gentiles who changed everything.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

Three of those examples lived at a time when Christianity was a Jewish sect, one died before Christianity existed, and the final example you put forth was the one who created Christianity. Celebration of the Jewish feasts, in the Jewish manner, was forbidden quite early on, and with good reason. Why would we, believing the Law is fullfilled, bind ourselves to the Law? Additionally the existance of this rival sub-religion within the faith creates the danger of the rise of Judaizing, the belief that one must fullfill the requirements of the law to have salvation. It also opens up the danger of a line of thought that the Jews have a special line to God, and may enter into salvation in this way.

While certain elements of Judaism are cultural - and therefore harmless, such acts as going to the synagogue for Jewish feasts, or attempting to enforce Jewish practice on others, even if they are within the community, is dangerous or wrong.

 

[Javl]

Three of those examples lived at a time when Christianity was a Jewish sect, one died before Christianity existed, and the final example you put forth was the one who created Christianity. Celebration of the Jewish feasts, in the Jewish manner, was forbidden quite early on, and with good reason. Why would we, believing the Law is fullfilled, bind ourselves to the Law? Additionally the existance of this rival sub-religion within the faith creates the danger of the rise of Judaizing, the belief that one must fullfill the requirements of the law to have salvation. It also opens up the danger of a line of thought that the Jews have a special line to God, and may enter into salvation in this way.

While certain elements of Judaism are cultural - and therefore harmless, such acts as going to the synagogue for Jewish feasts, or attempting to enforce Jewish practice on others, even if they are within the community, is dangerous or wrong.

Jesus sacrifice did complete the old law. But He did give us a new law based on the old one. One which many Christians do not realize exists, and many of those that do hardly follow it, let alone believe it.

As for Judaizing, aren’t we all Spiritual Jews? Isn’t Christianity based on Judaism? Again I say, Christianity is the fulfillment and completion of Judaism. There is no danger whatever of reverting, even though some individuals do, Jesus and the Holy Spirit have seen to that.

And, please keep in mind that the Jews are still God’s chosen people. Although they have rejected Him, He has not rejected them. God does not, and cannot, go back on His word. What He has in store for them is His business, not ours.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Nine_Two]

Jesus sacrifice did complete the old law. But He did give us a new law based on the old one. One which many Christians do not realize exists, and many of those that do hardly follow it, let alone believe it.

Not quite.

As for Judaizing, aren’t we all Spiritual Jews? Isn’t Christianity based on Judaism? Again I say, Christianity is the fulfillment and completion of Judaism. There is no danger whatever of reverting, even though some individuals do, Jesus and the Holy Spirit have seen to that.

Judaizing is the teaching of the belief that one must fullfill the law in order to find salvation. I can’t speak for the West, but in the East it has been denounced quite strongly. Most notably by St. John Chrysostom (who is often accused of condemning Jews, rather than the practice of Christians teaching we are bound by their laws).

And, please keep in mind that the Jews are still God’s chosen people. Although they have rejected Him, He has not rejected them. God does not, and cannot, go back on His word. What He has in store for them is His business, not ours.

This is one of those places where Catholic and Orthodox tend to disagree. Anna Scott made a post a while ago, and it was brought up recently, on both Catholic and Orthodox thought on this. The Orthodox posters unanimously disagreed with this. The chosen people are the ones who follow the will of God, the Church of Christ. As Christ said, God can raise up children of Abraham from the stones, and he did something quite similar.

 

[Javl]

Not quite.

Judaizing is the teaching of the belief that one must fullfill the law in order to find salvation. I can’t speak for the West, but in the East it has been denounced quite strongly. Most notably by St. John Chrysostom (who is often accused of condemning Jews, rather than the practice of Christians teaching we are bound by their laws).

I reiterate, there is no possibility of Judaization, and again, we are not bound by the old law, but the new one that Jesus gave us.

This is one of those places where Catholic and Orthodox tend to disagree. Anna Scott made a post a while ago, and it was brought up recently, on both Catholic and Orthodox thought on this. The Orthodox posters unanimously disagreed with this. The chosen people are the ones who follow the will of God, the Church of Christ. As Christ said, God can raise up children of Abraham from the stones, and he did something quite similar.

From your response here it seems that the Orthodox are telling God what He can and cannot do. The Jews are still God’s chosen people whether the Orthodox believe it or not. God does not renege on His promises. He has never said to the Jews “I dis-own you. You are no longer my chosen.” If He ever did say that, I missed it.

As JohnPaul II called them, I also call them: “My elder brethren”.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Nine_Two]

I reiterate, there is no possibility of Judaization, and again, we are not bound by the old law, but the new one that Jesus gave us.

From your response here it seems that the Orthodox are telling God what He can and cannot do. The Jews are still God’s chosen people whether the Orthodox believe it or not. God does not renege on His promises. He has never said to the Jews “I dis-own you. You are no longer my chosen.” If He ever did say that, I missed it.

As JohnPaul II called them, I also call them: “My elder brethren”.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

As I already said, this seems to be a point on which the Catholics and Orthodox disagree.

Orthodox see themselves as the Children of Abraham and the holders of the Covenant. Catholics see a sect they broke with nearly 2,000 years ago as being the Children of Abraham and the holders of the Covenant. Clearly this is one of the many differences we’ll have to reconcile if Communion is to resume.

 

[Javl]

As I already said, this seems to be a point on which the Catholics and Orthodox disagree.

Orthodox see themselves as the Children of Abraham and the holders of the Covenant. Catholics see a sect they broke with nearly 2,000 years ago as being the Children of Abraham and the holders of the Covenant. Clearly this is one of the many differences we’ll have to reconcile if Communion is to resume.

Yes, I agree, and I do not see anything serious to prevent our unification though. Truthfully, I think both sides are very selfish and very stubborn.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Nine_Two]

Yes, I agree, and I do not see anything serious to prevent our unification though. Truthfully, I think both sides are very selfish and very stubborn.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

I see that as a major issue on its own.

 

[Hesychios]

Yes, I agree, and I do not see anything serious to prevent our unification though. Truthfully, I think both sides are very selfish and very stubborn.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

I will not disagree with the selfish and stubborn comment, however I can’t reduce our very real differences to that argument.