2010 Lay Orthodox Survey on Attitudes Toward Orthodox-Catholic Reunion

[GaryTaylor]

That is why I think it would be best if the Papacy resolved it’s differences with it’s Protestant children first. We can get a look at whatever compromises they will have agreed to before we consider admitting them to communion. There is no point in introducing intercommunion with a church we might have to cut off for heresy at a later date.

Good Point, I see a difficult situation here. One that I believe the Pope clearly understands today.

When you walk twenty miles into the woods, the return trip is also twenty miles. I see the return trip in full effect. I also see a resistance on the part of many to change back to what is a proven method of existence with Pre V-II.

I’m not so sure the thinking here isn’t to force the issue at this point with a communion of the two churchs?

Initially I wasn’t to fond of Pope Benedict. I must admitt my thinking has changed. I still feel theres a bit to much suggestive theropy instead of authority being used. But I can’t pretend to know his pressures either.

 

[Javl]

So then, what is your point?

That many do not know or understand Catholicism. There are too many misconceptions, lies, myths , etc. One of the biggest stumbling blocks is the discipline and obedience that is within Catholicism.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Javl]

Sympathetic skeptic… yes, that would be me.

I’m not sure how thinking that the Roman Catholic Church and Eastern Orthodox Churches teach mutually exclusive doctrines is “hating” the Catholic Church. I’ve found that some Catholics are quick to bring that up - if you disagree with Catholicism you must be anti-Catholic.

I’d love to see union between the Catholic and Orthodox Churches, but there are many things which would need to be changed on the Catholic side. Whether the Catholics believe the Orthodox Churches need to change is, I suppose, something for them to bring forward, although I would think if they believed we had to change that they wouldn’t be saying we’re the same.

What about those Eastern Churches that have joined the Catholic Church and are in communion with Rome? They still hold to their teachings, traditions, Liturgy, etc. None
( that I know of ) have been Latinized.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I think the pope can’t win with this line of thinking though. If he demanded you restore the filioque or knock off the un-Western views of Atonement and quit using levened bread, the Orthodox would flip their lids. But when he tries to make things simple, he’s a dullard or people get angry that it’s “too easy.”

Isn’t that basically what the current Pope said when he was a Cardinal? Basically all the Catholic Church requires of the Orthodox is to commemorate the Pope and submit to his authority (if they can only figure out what that actually meant pre-schism), everything else is just dandy.
There’s definitely something wrong when so little is required by the Catholic Church to resume communion.

 

[Javl]

Originally posted by Heyschios

That is why I think it would be best if the Papacy resolved it’s differences with it’s Protestant children first. We can get a look at whatever compromises they will have agreed to before we consider admitting them to communion. There is no point in introducing intercommunion with a church we might have to cut off for heresy at a later date.

There is a very slim to no chance for that happening with the majority of Protestant denominations, sorry to say. My opinion is that “sola scriptura” is the biggest block.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Nine_Two]

This type of sentiment is precisely why reunion probably will never happen. The East don’t think they need to change anything. All is perfect. It’s the West that needs to clean her room.

I base that on the Catholic insistance that we’re the same already. Truly I think the first step to reunion is if the West recognized we’re not the same, then maybe we can have an actual discussion of the things that do need to change, in both camps.

I’m absolutely not naive enough to believe the Orthodox Church doesn’t have things that need reform, however the faith is an absolute non-negotiable, and I don’t think it is a negative to say that. Rather I think to say otherwise is a negative.

 

[Nine_Two]

What about those Eastern Churches that have joined the Catholic Church and are in communion with Rome? They still hold to their teachings, traditions, Liturgy, etc. None
( that I know of ) have been Latinized.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

That groups have, for various reasons, split from their Church and gone to Rome does not mean much for the Orthodox Church. If you do not require unity of faith then that is a Catholic decision, but it is certainly one of the differences between the Catholic and Orthodox Church. Under Canon 24 of Session 6 of the Council of Trent, for example, I, and most Orthodox, are anathema.

So if Eastern Catholics can hold to a different faith from Rome, and be in Communion, while retaining their own beliefs in traditions, that’s their business, but I think it is a betrayal of the faith to do such.

 

[Michael6]

I feel Catholics embrace Christianity. All Christianity stems from Judaism.And it was the Jews who crucified Jesus Christ. The Jews have not changed their religion. And therefore Catholics believe in the only true GOD!

 

[Javl]

That groups have, for various reasons, split from their Church and gone to Rome does not mean much for the Orthodox Church. If you do not require unity of faith then that is a Catholic decision, but it is certainly one of the differences between the Catholic and Orthodox Church. Under Canon 24 of Session 6 of the Council of Trent, for example, I, and most Orthodox, are anathema.

It doesn’t mean much, but I disagree with the council. Also later councils should have rescinded that.

So if Eastern Catholics can hold to a different faith from Rome, and be in Communion, while retaining their own beliefs in traditions, that’s their business, but I think it is a betrayal of the faith to do such.

Now this is where we disagree. I do not think it’s a betrayal of the faith, since their faith has not wavered or changed. I look at it as a matter of rejecting an old tradition.

For example, those Jews who accept Jesus as the Messiah and become Catholic are still Jews. All they have done is to fulfill the scriptural prophesies concerning Judaism. They have rejected age old ( man made ) traditions.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Michael6]

You have judged me. What religion are you?

 

[Nine_Two]

Now this is where we disagree. I do not think it’s a betrayal of the faith, since their faith has not wavered or changed. I look at it as a matter of rejecting an old tradition.

Exactly, it is a difference between the Orthodox and Catholic perceptions of unity that needs to be rectified. Simply saying “We can disagree” doesn’t solve the issue, especially since we don’t agree that we can disagree.

For example, those Jews who accept Jesus as the Messiah and become Catholic are still Jews. All they have done is to fulfill the scriptural prophesies concerning Judaism. They have rejected age old ( man made ) traditions.

A Jew who converts to Catholicism is still an ethnic Jew, but they are no longer members of the Jewish religion, and they do not have a distinct identity within Catholicism.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Makes sense but the Catholics believe in essentials that they’re not willing to concede—infallibility being the chief issue among many. To overturn the Vatican I ruling would contradict and de-legitimize their claims for the papacy. Never will it happen. And Orthodox would demand an overturn of the Vatican I view of the papacy. I just can’t fathom Orthodoxy and Catholicism coming together. Both are totally set in their views. In my opinion, from what I’ve read, the East and West were divorced long before 1054. These two camps are like two different worlds sometimes. And like you, I fail to see why Rome sees so many similarities and so little differences. For me, I don’t think at this point I could become an Orthodox Christian because of their views of Original Sin, the Atonement, and the anti-Catholic sentiment that is so very strong. Yet Rome doesn’t have these issues with the East. Go figure? Maybe Rome’s greatest weakness is not realizing how different their brethren to the East truly are.

I base that on the Catholic insistance that we’re the same already. Truly I think the first step to reunion is if the West recognized we’re not the same, then maybe we can have an actual discussion of the things that do need to change, in both camps.

I’m absolutely not naive enough to believe the Orthodox Church doesn’t have things that need reform, however the faith is an absolute non-negotiable, and I don’t think it is a negative to say that. Rather I think to say otherwise is a negative.

 

[Nine_Two]

Makes sense but the Catholics believe in essentials that they’re not willing to concede—infallibility being the chief issue among many. To overturn the Vatican I ruling would contradict and de-legitimize their claims for the papacy. Never will it happen. And Orthodox would demand an overturn of the Vatican I view of the papacy. I just can’t fathom Orthodoxy and Catholicism coming together. Both are totally set in their views. In my opinion, from what I’ve read, the East and West were divorced long before 1054. These two camps are like two different worlds sometimes. And like you, I fail to see why Rome sees so many similarities and so little differences. For me, I don’t think at this point I could become an Orthodox Christian because of their views of Original Sin, the Atonement, and the anti-Catholic sentiment that is so very strong. Yet Rome doesn’t have these issues with the East. Go figure? Maybe Rome’s greatest weakness is not realizing how different their brethren to the East truly are.

What do you mean by “anti-Catholic” sentiment, exactly though? While I’m not going to argue that there isn’t some anti-Catholic sentiment, I see it nowhere near something that can’t be overcome. To a large extent it seems to have turned into a platitude used by some Catholics to denegrate anyone who disagrees with the Catholic Church, as though those individuals are themselves the obsticle to unity.

I don’t know if the Vatican will ever overturn Vat I, that’s not really my business, as I already said unity, from the Orthodox point of view, would require the rejection of much older Canons of “ecumenical councils” to work. Whether Rome is actually willing to give anything for this much desired unity, or whether they just want the pope added to the diptychs without anything beind done is something they need to decide for themselves before they come looking for reunion.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I agree and have indeed encountered the “you’re anti-Catholic” ‘platitude’ before in here when I tried to make a point or ask a question (and I was NOT being anti-Catholic, just genuinely wanted to learn or understand or think outside the box) so I completely understand what you’re saying about that. BUT, there are Orthodox out there who are just genuinely anti-Catholic. I read it on the internet and I know some folks who are former Orthodox, I stress “former” for various reasons and they all have told me their experience was the anti-Rome sentiment was thick as lead. I have observed it from some I know and read a heap of it online. So they’re out there. Are they a majority? I don’t know that.

I will say this, and it’s pretty much a priori to be truthful: Most Catholics I know admire the Orthodox and really appreciate their liturgy, customs, traditions, and orthodoxy (small o). Most Orthodox I know are all too quick to NOT appreciate the same things of Rome. It’s a one-way street largely. My best friend is a Catholic convert and just oohs and aahs Orthodoxy. I’ve asked him a few times, “do you realize how much disagreement and divergence as well as downright polar opposite thinking there is between the West and East?” He shrugs. Most do. I think there is far more love flowing toward the east than there is toward the west. I get far more “good riddance” vibes from Orthodoxy and I also get more of a sense of urgency for ecumenism and reunion from Rome than from Orthodoxy. Orthodoxy seems to say, “hey, fine by us as long as you go back to the straight and narrow you walked away from” and I don’t detect a lot of urgency. As always, I could be wrong. Hope I am.

What do you mean by “anti-Catholic” sentiment, exactly though? While I’m not going to argue that there isn’t some anti-Catholic sentiment, I see it nowhere near something that can’t be overcome. To a large extent it seems to have turned into a platitude used by some Catholics to denegrate anyone who disagrees with the Catholic Church, as though those individuals are themselves the obsticle to unity.

I don’t know if the Vatican will ever overturn Vat I, that’s not really my business, as I already said unity, from the Orthodox point of view, would require the rejection of much older Canons of “ecumenical councils” to work. Whether Rome is actually willing to give anything for this much desired unity, or whether they just want the pope added to the diptychs without anything beind done is something they need to decide for themselves before they come looking for reunion.

 

[Bluegoat]

What do you mean by “anti-Catholic” sentiment, exactly though? While I’m not going to argue that there isn’t some anti-Catholic sentiment, I see it nowhere near something that can’t be overcome. To a large extent it seems to have turned into a platitude used by some Catholics to denegrate anyone who disagrees with the Catholic Church, as though those individuals are themselves the obsticle to unity.

I don’t know if the Vatican will ever overturn Vat I, that’s not really my business, as I already said unity, from the Orthodox point of view, would require the rejection of much older Canons of “ecumenical councils” to work. Whether Rome is actually willing to give anything for this much desired unity, or whether they just want the pope added to the diptychs without anything beind done is something they need to decide for themselves before they come looking for reunion.

It is interesting to me that in more recent times, Catholic theology i actuallyactually seems to be much more compatible with Eastern theology than it used to be. Look at how Catholic teaching these days characterizes original sin - they have seriously back-peddled from what has been the Catholic position previously. And similarly with how they deal with transubstantiation.

Now, I see huge problems here too, because according to their own methods such a change shouldn’t really be possible, and because there is actual division within Catholicism over these issues, for starters.

But it is interesting. Some kind of reunion isn’t impossible to imagine for me, though it involves thinking in Church time, which is only slightly quicker than geological time.

 

[Nine_Two]

I don’t think it’s right to say it’s a one way thing, I’ve encountered a lot of anti-Orthodoxy among Catholics. I think it is fair to say there is some anti-Catholic Orthodox, I’ve encountered them here too, and some people simply can’t stand for others to disagree with them.

Some of the former-Orthodox I’ve encountered who went to Rome due to “anti-Catholicism”, and I by no mean claim these are the only ones, nor the majority, were quite caught up in the Ecumenist movement and take the same position that anything not pro-Catholic is anti-Catholic.

As for having no urgancy, no the Orthodox don’t. We believe we are the Church of Christ, and are therefore complete. If reunion is to come it will be on God’s time. Human urgancy can’t do a thing about it.

 

[Louie1983]

As for having no urgancy, no the Orthodox don’t. We believe we are the Church of Christ, and are therefore complete. If reunion is to come it will be on God’s time. Human urgancy can’t do a thing about it.

I think this is the mentality from both sides.

 

[josephdaniel29]

I agree and have indeed encountered the “you’re anti-Catholic” ‘platitude’ before in here when I tried to make a point or ask a question (and I was NOT being anti-Catholic, just genuinely wanted to learn or understand or think outside the box) so I completely understand what you’re saying about that. BUT, there are Orthodox out there who are just genuinely anti-Catholic. I read it on the internet and I know some folks who are former Orthodox, I stress “former” for various reasons and they all have told me their experience was the anti-Rome sentiment was thick as lead. I have observed it from some I know and read a heap of it online. So they’re out there. Are they a majority? I don’t know that.

I will say this, and it’s pretty much a priori to be truthful: Most Catholics I know admire the Orthodox and really appreciate their liturgy, customs, traditions, and orthodoxy (small o). Most Orthodox I know are all too quick to NOT appreciate the same things of Rome. It’s a one-way street largely. My best friend is a Catholic convert and just oohs and aahs Orthodoxy. I’ve asked him a few times, “do you realize how much disagreement and divergence as well as downright polar opposite thinking there is between the West and East?” He shrugs. Most do. I think there is far more love flowing toward the east than there is toward the west. I get far more “good riddance” vibes from Orthodoxy and I also get more of a sense of urgency for ecumenism and reunion from Rome than from Orthodoxy. Orthodoxy seems to say, “hey, fine by us as long as you go back to the straight and narrow you walked away from” and I don’t detect a lot of urgency. As always, I could be wrong. Hope I am.

I must live in a odd corner of the world where the Orthodox have no anti-Catholic sentiment. I regular attend a heavily convert OCA parish and a heavily ethnic Greek parish. Not once in almost five years have I heard a negative word spoken about Catholicism. In fact I’ve heard specifically Catholic saints quoted in homilies on several occasions.

My priest, a cradle Russian, is very fond of the “Roman Church” and has in fact counseled a particular Orthodox spouse to attend the Catholic Church with the Catholic spouse in order to maintain family harmony.

In Christ
Joe

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

A cradle Russian? Are there any converts to Russianism? Can one convert ethnicities? Apart from Michael Jackson of course…

My priest, a cradle Russian,

In Christ
Joe

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I think it’s an unhealthy mentality as well. The Lord asks that we should all be one. It is an admonition from Our Lord Himself. The Catholics, Lutherans, many Anglicans, etc. are at least trying. And I give Rome more credit than anyone for their effort and sincerity in this. But that “hey, we’re the real deal. you come to us because we sure ain’t a comin’ to you!” mentality is spooky. I would think the Church that “really is” the Church would take the mature high road and see the urgency of saving souls and being One again. It shows a complacency and peace with schism that is by its nature un-Christian.

As for having no urgancy, no the Orthodox don’t. We believe we are the Church of Christ, and are therefore complete. If reunion is to come it will be on God’s time. Human urgancy can’t do a thing about it.

I think this is the mentality from both sides.