2010 Lay Orthodox Survey on Attitudes Toward Orthodox-Catholic Reunion

[Marc_Anthony]

Some of us believe in miracles.

-Theo

Who says I don’t? But just because I believe in them doesn’t mean I expect them to happen…

I’m going to say something controversial here. FROM MY EXPERIENCE ONLY, of the Catholics and Orthodox on this forum, I believe that the Catholic Church is more willing to compromise than the Orthodox Church. I think there’s more…IDK…resentment on the orthodox side. I know that the Church is spiritual, of course, but you can’t deny that from a material, physical perspective the Catholic Church ended up much better off…more members, more money, more power.

I think that, without realizing it, a lot of Rothodox resent this and thus are less willing to compromise and make changes for the sake of reconciliation than the Catholic Church is.

Or maybe I’m reading way too much into this and it’s simply that the Catholic Church has clarified (Orthodox would say added) the dogmas of Papal Infallibility, the Immaculate Conception, and the Assumption (as well as, thogh not a dogma per se, the filioque) and thus it is up to the Catholic Church now to clarify these dogmas in a way that the Orthodox will accept them.

I don’t know.

 

[Nine_Two]

I think it’s an unhealthy mentality as well. The Lord asks that we should all be one. It is an admonition from Our Lord Himself. The Catholics, Lutherans, many Anglicans, etc. are at least trying. And I give Rome more credit than anyone for their effort and sincerity in this. But that “hey, we’re the real deal. you come to us because we sure ain’t a comin’ to you!” mentality is spooky. I would think the Church that “really is” the Church would take the mature high road and see the urgency of saving souls and being One again. It shows a complacency and peace with schism that is by its nature un-Christian.

The problem with taking the stance that the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Churches must be unified to “be one” is that you’re leaving out a considerable number of Christians. What about the Oriental Orthodox? What about the Old Believers? What about the Old Calanderists? What about the Protestants?

The fact is that both Catholic and Orthodox dogma is that the Church is One, and any other groups are in schism from the true Church, and if your belief is that the two must be joined for the Church to be “One”, then I must ask what you think of these other groups? While I cannot speak for Catholics, the Orthodox attitude to those who come to the Church is one a joy (I get the feeling this is true of Catholics as well, but as I said, I’m in no place to speak for them). The Orthodox Church has missionaries all over the world, trying to fullfill Christ’s last command that we preach the gospel to all the world.

So no, there is no urgency in being one again because the Church has never not been one. Perhaps Communion between the Churches would make the job of seekers easier - I know it would have helped me out - but ultimately even with communion they will still have to sort through fifty million denominations, the only difference will be that the two largest Communions will be one.

 

[Louie1983]

I think it’s an unhealthy mentality as well. The Lord asks that we should all be one. It is an admonition from Our Lord Himself. The Catholics, Lutherans, many Anglicans, etc. are at least trying. And I give Rome more credit than anyone for their effort and sincerity in this. But that “hey, we’re the real deal. you come to us because we sure ain’t a comin’ to you!” mentality is spooky. I would think the Church that “really is” the Church would take the mature high road and see the urgency of saving souls and being One again. It shows a complacency and peace with schism that is by its nature un-Christian.

I think this is the mentality from both sides.

Hey Gurney my friend, long time!

I kinda agree with what you say however the problem is that you cannot sacrifice truth for the sake of being united.

If the catholic church were to compromise on it’s teachings on papal infallibility etc it would a compromise to what it holds to be true. Same for the orthodox and their beliefs.

I honestly cannot see a reunion ever happening without one coming to the other the way a lot of anglicans are coming back to the catholic church.

The only union I can see (although still holding a great love and respect for our orthodox brethren) is under the holy catholic apostolic church with the vicar of christ as the head of the church on earth.

 

[Nine_Two]

I must live in a odd corner of the world where the Orthodox have no anti-Catholic sentiment. I regular attend a heavily convert OCA parish and a heavily ethnic Greek parish. Not once in almost five years have I heard a negative word spoken about Catholicism. In fact I’ve heard specifically Catholic saints quoted in homilies on several occasions.

My priest, a cradle Russian, is very fond of the “Roman Church” and has in fact counseled a particular Orthodox spouse to attend the Catholic Church with the Catholic spouse in order to maintain family harmony.

In Christ
Joe

That has generally been my experience as well. I revisited my former Parish last week and the new priest there is himself a former Roman Catholic and used some very Catholic imagery in his sermon, and I heard no complaints (nor did I have any myself, in fact it was one of the best sermons I’ve heard in a while), but the anti-Catholic parishes probably do happen, I just doubt they’re the norm.

 

[Hesychios]

That many do not know or understand Catholicism. There are too many misconceptions, lies, myths , etc. One of the biggest stumbling blocks is the discipline and obedience that is within Catholicism.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

From my experience many Roman Catholics do not know or understand Catholicism, including more than a few apologists for it.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Well Nine, after getting to know me for a while now, I wouldn’t think you’d need to ask me that. You know my affection for Anglicans and Lutherans especially. The catechism tells us that there is truth in all of these denominations. More in some, less in others. It is implicit in what I say that ALL Christians must be one. Why you’re assuming I marginalize or just don’t care about Oriental Orthodox, Calvinists, Presbyterians, Lutherans, and other groups I can’t figure out? We were talking Orthodoxy and Catholicism so I addressed the OP. The OP isn’t asking about Oriental Orthodoxy or Reformed or Baptists as far as I know. Perhaps I misread it? But I would hope you know by now that I care about all Christians and unity. There are many dimensions to ecumenism.

The problem with taking the stance that the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Churches must be unified to “be one” is that you’re leaving out a considerable number of Christians. What about the Oriental Orthodox? What about the Old Believers? What about the Old Calanderists? What about the Protestants?

The fact is that both Catholic and Orthodox dogma is that the Church is One, and any other groups are in schism from the true Church, and if your belief is that the two must be joined for the Church to be “One”, then I must ask what you think of these other groups? While I cannot speak for Catholics, the Orthodox attitude to those who come to the Church is one a joy (I get the feeling this is true of Catholics as well, but as I said, I’m in no place to speak for them). The Orthodox Church has missionaries all over the world, trying to fullfill Christ’s last command that we preach the gospel to all the world.

So no, there is no urgency in being one again because the Church has never not been one. Perhaps Communion between the Churches would make the job of seekers easier - I know it would have helped me out - but ultimately even with communion they will still have to sort through fifty million denominations, the only difference will be that the two largest Communions will be one.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Do you think it’s possible that many Orthodox don’t know their faith as well? I would venture to say that there are a few Russians, Serbs, Latvians, Greeks, and Ukranians out in this world that, if you interviewed them with a Q and A wouldn’t have the theological acumen of St. John Chrysostom.

From my experience many Roman Catholics do not know or understand Catholicism, including more than a few apologists for it.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Hi Louie,

A blessing to read a post from you. Don’t be such a stranger! Don’t worry, I’m not saying Catholicism should compromise anything. I’m simply saying that the Orthodox are completely set in their ways determined that they are the true Church and Rome is a lost sheep. The Catholic Church, IMO, is more charitable toward the East than the reverse is true. More ecumenical desire comes from Rome toward the East and I believe the hope for reunion lay in Rome, not in the Orthodox.

I happen to think that the Pope is the great hope for Christendom right now. We hear little from Eastern bishops. Most people in the world can’t even probably name two Orthodox patriarchs. The pope is trying to re-Christianize Europe, end relativistic thinking, and the way he proudly marched into England proclaiming Christ in a sickening sea of atheistic, antagonistic, anti-Christian hate, is inspiring. If a new tide of faith comes along, a new evangelism, and the Gospel regains a foothold in the secular lands of Europe and in a rapidly secularizing North America, it will be the pope leading the charge. Let’s just say this. I have never been closer to going back to the Catholic Church than I am right now. I’m not all the way there, but closer than in the past.

Louie1983:
Hey Gurney my friend, long time!

I kinda agree with what you say however the problem is that you cannot sacrifice truth for the sake of being united.

If the catholic church were to compromise on it’s teachings on papal infallibility etc it would a compromise to what it holds to be true. Same for the orthodox and their beliefs.

I honestly cannot see a reunion ever happening without one coming to the other the way a lot of anglicans are coming back to the catholic church.

The only union I can see (although still holding a great love and respect for our orthodox brethren) is under the holy catholic apostolic church with the vicar of christ as the head of the church on earth.

 

[Louie1983]

From my experience many Roman Catholics do not know or understand Catholicism, including more than a few apologists for it.

Agreed.

Same could be said for the orthodox and for every other denomination to.

 

[Hesychios]

It is interesting to me that in more recent times, Catholic theology actually seems to be much more compatible with Eastern theology than it used to be.

Yes, that is true. I am glad you noticed that and mentioned it.

This is largely due, I think, to Pope John Paul, and it comes from his belief that the Catholic church could learn from it’s “other lung” (a term I don’t personally care for). So he, or probably his staff, engaged in harmonizing when they put the new catechism together. Many modern internet Catholics do not have a memory of the Catholic church before Pope John Paul, but they have been influenced by his catechism.

Speaking from memory right now, I would say it comes off rather poorly in some places, making the church actually seem to be saying two contradictory things at the same time.

 

[Nine_Two]

Well Nine, after getting to know me for a while now, I wouldn’t think you’d need to ask me that. You know my affection for Anglicans and Lutherans especially. The catechism tells us that there is truth in all of these denominations. More in some, less in others. It is implicit in what I say that ALL Christians must be one. Why you’re assuming I marginalize or just don’t care about Oriental Orthodox, Calvinists, Presbyterians, Lutherans, and other groups I can’t figure out? We were talking Orthodoxy and Catholicism so I addressed the OP. The OP isn’t asking about Oriental Orthodoxy or Reformed or Baptists as far as I know. Perhaps I misread it? But I would hope you know by now that I care about all Christians and unity. There are many dimensions to ecumenism.

Sorry Gurney, I didn’t mean for that to come out like that. It was more of a general question, if you want unity certainly that has to be something that is all encompassing, and not just between two of the choices. However I don’t think you can do it piecemeal like that, the demands of one Church joining are going to be contrary to others joining. For example I’m personally uncomfortable with the Catholics having communion with Churches which hold to a, for lack of a better word, Nestorian Christology. I honestly believe that if one believes that the Church is broken, and scattered you need to hold ecumenical talks in common with all at once to reach a common position.

However as an Anglican in the United States, you know as well as any that some portions of the Church have moved too far from their roots (for lack of a better word), to the extent that it is impossible for all denominations to be one while those denominations still exist, that is that the membership of those denominations MUST convert, and accept the teachings of the Apostolic Faith. I think when you look at things from this perspective the Orthodox demand that any who want unity with the Church must conform to us makes more sense.

 

[Hesychios]

Hi Scott,

Do you think it’s possible that many Orthodox don’t know their faith as well? I would venture to say that there are a few Russians, Serbs, Latvians, Greeks, and Ukranians out in this world that, if you interviewed them with a Q and A wouldn’t have the theological acumen of St. John Chrysostom.

That is true (although from my limited experience the average lay Orthodox is way ahead of the average lay Roman Catholic in theological acumen).

But I was responding to the other poster’s specific claim that former Roman Catholics don’t know the Catholic Faith. Of course that is a silly assumption to make. But if we give his claim the benefit of the doubt, in order for them to be former Roman Catholics who don’t understand catholicism, they must have once been Roman Catholics who did not understand catholicism.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

This has not been my observation, Meghan. Could you elaborate please? Thanks.

Look at how Catholic teaching these days characterizes original sin - they have seriously back-peddled from what has been the Catholic position previously. And similarly with how they deal with transubstantiation.

 

[Louie1983]

Hi Louie,

A blessing to read a post from you. Don’t be such a stranger! Don’t worry, I’m not saying Catholicism should compromise anything. I’m simply saying that the Orthodox are completely set in their ways determined that they are the true Church and Rome is a lost sheep. The Catholic Church, IMO, is more charitable toward the East than the reverse is true. More ecumenical desire comes from Rome toward the East and I believe the hope for reunion lay in Rome, not in the Orthodox.

I happen to think that the Pope is the great hope for Christendom right now. We hear little from Eastern bishops. Most people in the world can’t even probably name two Orthodox patriarchs. The pope is trying to re-Christianize Europe, end relativistic thinking, and the way he proudly marched into England proclaiming Christ in a sickening sea of atheistic, antagonistic, anti-Christian hate, is inspiring. If a new tide of faith comes along, a new evangelism, and the Gospel regains a foothold in the secular lands of Europe and in a rapidly secularizing North America, it will be the pope leading the charge. Let’s just say this. I have never been closer to going back to the Catholic Church than I am right now. I’m not all the way there, but closer than in the past.

**Good to hear mate!

All you can do is keep praying! For me, the only way europe will convert/revert back to christianity is through divine intervention. I honetly think that God needs to give europe (and Australia where I am) a good old smack across the head. It’s really frightening and and sad to see the detorioration of a lot of countries because they have fallen into satan’s trap (i’m talking about secular countries here).

This is the direct result of the masons in my opinion.**

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I would look at numbers. The amount of Catholics in this country is far more than Orthodox Christians. Generally speaking I would venture to say that the converts to Orthodoxy, like yourself, are the most learned and theologically savvy folks in the Orthodox community. Same is true of Catholicism. A LOT of Protestants-turned Catholic, from my experience, are very, very in tune with history and theology and they researched and agonized and prayed and studied Catholicism before converting. It’s the cradle folks in East and West that are usually less knowledgable, sadly. I don’t think the typical Russian in Moscow who goes to worship on Sunday is a theological master any more than many Italians in Rome who run down to Mass on a given weekend. There are so many Catholics that the numbers always give a higher chance of anything bad. But I will say that, for my whole life and well before from what I’ve heard, Catholicism has had some LOUSY catechesis. My own story a priori is a posterchild for lousy catechism as a kid. I am 100% one-on-one Holy Spirit-taught, with no help from the Church. If it weren’t for the Holy Spirit guiding me to study, read, pray, and analyze on my own starting in my late teens, I’d be a free-floating empty-headed Christian with vague notions of Christ! I’m hoping that Catholic education is getting better in general. I will say that locally our Catholic parish is HUGE and full of loyal, faithful Catholics with several learned converts. But the Catholic school’s education stinks, pure and simple. Not much has changed. Just memorize 75 prayers, read through these text books, hasta luego… Catholic education media-wise has vastly improved. This forum is a testimony to that. I haven’t seen a forum online that even comes close.

Hi Scott, That is true (although from my limited experience the average lay Orthodox is way ahead of the average lay Roman Catholic in theological acumen).

But I was responding to the other poster’s specific claim that former Roman Catholics don’t know the Catholic Faith. Of course that is a silly assumption to make. But if we give his claim the benefit of the doubt, in order for them to be former Roman Catholics who don’t understand catholicism, they must have once been Roman Catholics who did not understand catholicism.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I don’t know how much is the masons but jeez I know that secular “progressives,” socialists, and the Enlightenment in Europe all have done their damage. Human beings have become so arrogant to think that we don’t need God and we can build a ziggurat to the sky like Babel. I am blown away at the atheism of England. It’s appauling. Tolkien and Lewis would vomit if they saw their islands today religiously.

gurneyhalleck1;7174308:

Hi Louie,

A blessing to read a post from you. Don’t be such a stranger! Don’t worry, I’m not saying Catholicism should compromise anything. I’m simply saying that the Orthodox are completely set in their ways determined that they are the true Church and Rome is a lost sheep. The Catholic Church, IMO, is more charitable toward the East than the reverse is true. More ecumenical desire comes from Rome toward the East and I believe the hope for reunion lay in Rome, not in the Orthodox.

I happen to think that the Pope is the great hope for Christendom right now. We hear little from Eastern bishops. Most people in the world can’t even probably name two Orthodox patriarchs. The pope is trying to re-Christianize Europe, end relativistic thinking, and the way he proudly marched into England proclaiming Christ in a sickening sea of atheistic, antagonistic, anti-Christian hate, is inspiring. If a new tide of faith comes along, a new evangelism, and the Gospel regains a foothold in the secular lands of Europe and in a rapidly secularizing North America, it will be the pope leading the charge. Let’s just say this. I have never been closer to going back to the Catholic Church than I am right now. I’m not all the way there, but closer than in the past.

**Good to hear mate!

All you can do is keep praying! For me, the only way europe will convert/revert back to christianity is through divine intervention. I honetly think that God needs to give europe (and Australia where I am) a good old smack across the head. It’s really frightening and and sad to see the detorioration of a lot of countries because they have fallen into satan’s trap (i’m talking about secular countries here).

This is the direct result of the masons in my opinion.**

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

No need for apologies at all, Nine. I agree that ecumenism is a mess. It’s like trying to fix the school system! LOL…you lost me with the Nestorian reference though. And you’re right, Anglicanism has moved far from its roots. Exhibit A: The Episcopal Church.

Today my rector was calling the lady up to the pulpit who is head of the ACW (Anglican Church Women) to speak for a minute and he accidentally said, “ECW” (episcopal church women, what they were called until we split in 2007 LOL) and everyone looked at him sternly and he laughed, “oops, God forgive me! Lord, help me!” and we all laughed. The Episcopal Church is the ultimate exemplar for a lost set of sheep from its roots!

But the ACNA is also condoning women’s ordination, a key reason I’m poised to leave in the very near future. I am 100% committed to always being OPPOSED to W.O. I find it so ahistorical and un-Christian and a mockery of the priesthood. I get hot over that issue. And there is great desire to bash the gay lifestyle (as there should be) but no urgency to stop divorces and remarriages and W.O. as well as Calvinism that is running to rampant in evangelical circles. I’m NOT at all impressed with Anglican realignment. It’s been a mess and only gets messier. Lawsuits from TEC, feelgood yahoo groups like Christ Church Plano and their W.O. sympathies and megachurch approach, bahhhh…

Sorry Gurney, I didn’t mean for that to come out like that. It was more of a general question, if you want unity certainly that has to be something that is all encompassing, and not just between two of the choices. However I don’t think you can do it piecemeal like that, the demands of one Church joining are going to be contrary to others joining. For example I’m personally uncomfortable with the Catholics having communion with Churches which hold to a, for lack of a better word, Nestorian Christology. I honestly believe that if one believes that the Church is broken, and scattered you need to hold ecumenical talks in common with all at once to reach a common position.

However as an Anglican in the United States, you know as well as any that some portions of the Church have moved too far from their roots (for lack of a better word), to the extent that it is impossible for all denominations to be one while those denominations still exist, that is that the membership of those denominations MUST convert, and accept the teachings of the Apostolic Faith. I think when you look at things from this perspective the Orthodox demand that any who want unity with the Church must conform to us makes more sense.

 

[Louie1983]

I don’t know how much is the masons but jeez I know that secular “progressives,” socialists, and the Enlightenment in Europe all have done their damage. Human beings have become so arrogant to think that we don’t need God and we can build a ziggurat to the sky like Babel. I am blown away at the atheism of England. It’s appauling. Tolkien and Lewis would vomit if they saw their islands today religiously.
Louie1983;7174395:
Trust me, the masons have a lot to do with it.

Anyway back on topic.

I really can’t see a reunion between both churches (or as i see it, the orthodox coming home).

Very sad but then again compare it to the 30+ thousand denominations that have splintered and left the church.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Those blasted Masons! Oh, and MTV has had a lot to do with it too, and Oprah!

An unholy trinity of evil: Masons, MTV and the unholy Oprah!

gurneyhalleck1;7174451:

I don’t know how much is the masons but jeez I know that secular “progressives,” socialists, and the Enlightenment in Europe all have done their damage. Human beings have become so arrogant to think that we don’t need God and we can build a ziggurat to the sky like Babel. I am blown away at the atheism of England. It’s appauling. Tolkien and Lewis would vomit if they saw their islands today religiously.

Trust me, the masons have a lot to do with it.

Anyway back on topic.

I really can’t see a reunion between both churches (or as i see it, the orthodox coming home).

Very sad but then again compare it to the 30+ thousand denominations that have splintered and left the church.

 

[Louie1983]

Those blasted Masons! Oh, and MTV has had a lot to do with it too, and Oprah!

An unholy trinity of evil: Masons, MTV and the unholy Oprah!
Louie1983;7174469:
you making fun of me here?