2nd Vatican Council

[CrusaderNY]

Is this acceptable, sent to me by a friend. I find this totally offensive and UnCatholic and we should and must stop the insanity.

http://www.traditio.com/comment/com0501v.jpg

**Emblem of the New unRoman, unCatholic One-World Religion **Being Promoted by The Vatican
In Which the Star of Mohammed Literally Overwrites Christ

Here, from the Vatican, the Vatican Commission for Religious Relations, is the emblem of the New One-World Religion that the Vatican is pushing. Can there be any doubt that such a notion as represented by this emblem is definitely not Catholic and would be condemned by 260 popes as sycretism, which is a grave violation against the First Commandment by the promotion of the “all religions are equal” oecumenical heresy.

These Vatican personnel, hand-picked by Pope JPII, especially Walter Cardinal Kasper and Oecumenical Archbishop Michael Fitzgerald. Look carefully at the emblem. The labarum, or chi-rho, the early Christian emblem consisting of the Greek letters chi and rho, the first two letters of the title Christos (Messias) in Greek, the emblem that Constantine, after a vision of Christ, placed on his soldiers’ standards and subsequently was victorious in the battle that allowed Christianity to come out of the catacombs and become the official religion of the Roman empire, is overwritten in the New Religion’s emblem by the crescent and star of the infidel religion, Mohammedanism.

This encapsulates all in one symbol what Vatican II and its fruits have brought to us.

otm:

Yep, you are right. I have too many things distracting me right now…

 

[CrusaderNY]

Thank you TNT, I guess OTM wanted to find a chink in the armor and try to destort one fact, which we all know that it is the Talmud is used to teach all Jews today, as the liberal catholic can not go blow for blow with the Conservative catholic when facts are used as they can not defend what has happended to our beloved church. When cornered they will start the name calling, like intollerant, racist, etc

TNT:

I want to believe you mean Torah. Actually, I pray that you mean Torah.
Many of the traditions of the Jewish rabbi’s were later encapsulated in the Talmud writings. Christ refers to these as “traditions of men” in a condemnation rebuking the pharisees.
The Talmud was written way way past the Resurrection.
Most Jewish rabbis use the Talmud today, and not the Torah.

 

[TNT]

CrusaderNY:

Is this acceptable, sent to me by a friend. I find this totally offensive and UnCatholic and we should and must stop the insanity…
…the official religion of the Roman empire, is overwritten in the New Religion’s emblem by the crescent and star of the infidel religion, Mohammedanism.

This may be a prophecy in symbol form. After all, Western Catholics have 1.9 chidren / household. Muslims have 4.5.
They are presently as numerous a Catholics. The cresent has now shadowed over the Cross. A first in 1,400 years.
Islam is satan’s “designer religion”.
How long before child bearing has its way?
I’ll give it 2 generations–50 years.

Unless perhaps:

Saint Michael, the Archangel, defend us in battle; be our protection against the wickedness and snares of the devil. May God rebuke him, we humbly pray; and do thou, O Prince of the heavenly host, by the power of God, thrust into hell Satan and all the other evil spirits who roam through the world seeking the ruin of souls. Amen

Or as Leo XII would say:
**

Sancte Michael Archangele, defende nos in praelio. Contra nequitiam et insidias diaboli esto praesidium. Imperet illi Deus, supplices deprecamur. Tuque princeps militiae caelestis, Satanam aliosque spiritus malignos, qui ad perditionem animarum pervagantur in mundo divina virtute in infernum detrude. Amen.

**
But then this is only regularly recited in the TLM…by “arrogant trads” of course… a tiny minority.

 

[otm]

CrusaderNY:

Thank you TNT, I guess OTM wanted to find a chink in the armor and try to destort one fact, which we all know that it is the Talmud is used to teach all Jews today, as the liberal catholic can not go blow for blow with the Conservative catholic when facts are used as they can not defend what has happended to our beloved church. When cornered they will start the name calling, like intollerant, racist, etc

I am waiting for you to start using substantiated facts, with bated breath.

We could start with your so-called emblem of one world religion. Would you care to substantiate, with documented eveidence, that the Vatican is “pushing a one-world reoligion”? In particular, I refer to any documents eminating from the Vatican.

 

[TNT]

otm:

I am waiting for you to start using substantiated facts, with bated breath.

We could start with your so-called emblem of one world religion. Would you care to substantiate, with documented evidence, that the Vatican is “pushing a one-world religion”? In particular, I refer to any documents eminating from the Vatican.

No facts yet from me, BUT if it happens, here’s the path:

1. Dissipation of exclusivist dogmas.

• Extreme pressure on those who won’t agree.

1. Universal salvation. Allowing sycretism.

• Extreme pressure on those who won’t agree.

1. No longer any reason not to have a one-world religion.

• Extreme pressure on those who won’t agree.

The prayer fest at Assisi may have been the preamble to it?
BTW:
Would you have set up such a prayer fest in your parish? Just curious.

 

[Rara_Avis]

TNT:

Or as Leo XII would say:

But then this is only regularly recited in the TLM…by “arrogant trads” of course… a tiny minority.

Just to add to this an explanation for the prayer in the 1st place.

On October 13, 1884, Pope Leo XIII had a vision concerning the future of the Catholic Church. After the pontiff had finished his Mass at the Vatican, he suddenly stopped at the foot of the altar. He stood there for about 10 minutes, as if in a trance, his face ashen white. When asked what had happened, he explained that as he was about to leave the foot of the altar, he suddenly heard two voices

In front of the tabernacle, he had heard a confrontation between Jesus and Satan. Satan boasted that if he had enough time and enough power, he could destroy the Church. Jesus asked him: “How much time and how much power?” Satan replied that he would need a century and greater influence over men who would give themselves to him. Jesus said, “So be it,” The twentieth century is the century given to Satan to do his best to destroy the Church.

Apparently, Leo was then permitted a horrible vision of the attacks that would be waged b y evil spirits against souls in the Church, as well as a consoling vision of the Archangel Michael thrusting Satan and his legions back down into the abyss of hell,

Going immediately from the chapel to his office, the pope composed a prayer to St. Michael, with an instruction that it be recited by priests throughout the world.

… What happened… Church no longer in trouble??? Don’t need St. Michael help anymore???

 

[A.Pelliccio]

Wasnt born yet and all i attend is the TLM mass. I grew up with the post vat II RCIA and mass in the venacular. Im almost 19 years old and never have i felt closer to GOD then when I was on my knees reciving the Lord on my tounge. (this includes my first communion and confirmation).

 

[itsjustdave1988]

CrusaderNY,

CrusaderNY:

… it was not a dogmatic council at all …

Correct, the Ecumenical Council of Vatican II was pastoral, not dogmatic.

… and therefore not insired by the Holy spirit

Incorrect. Every Ecumenical Council is guided by the Holy Spirit and free from error in matters of faith and morals.

Can you show me any doctrinal teaching where it says Ecumenical councils, pastoral or otherwise are not guided by the Holy Spirit? If not, aren’t you being rather *novel *instead of *traditional *in asserting such a claim? A sign of modernism, no? Don’t tell me the masonic secret service have infiltrated the Lefebrvrists!! First the modernist use of probabilism, now this!!! :eeeeek:

On the contrary, *traditional Catholicism *asserts that not just the solemn teaching authority, but also the ordinary teaching authority is guided by the Holy Spirit.

Here’s some traditional Catholic catechesis for you …

According to Pius XII:

Nor must it be thought that what is expounded in Encyclical Letters does not of itself demand consent, since in writing such Letters the Popes do not exercise the supreme power of their Teaching Authority. For these matters are taught with the ordinary teaching authority, of which it is true to say: “He who heareth you, heareth me” (Pius XII, Humani Generis, 1950)

According the Henry Denzinger’s *Enchiridion Sybolorum *(13th edition) published in 1954:

“The Church exercises her infallibility … in ordinary universal teachings … it cannot neglect truth, nor impugn it … nor change the sense of defined dogma, nor can it estabish harmful discipline” (systematic index, IIf).

According to Pius IX (1864):

we cannot pass over in silence the boldness of those who “not enduring sound doctrine” [II Tim 4:3], contend that “without sin and with no loss of Catholic profession, one can withold assent and obedience to those judgements and decrees of the Apostolic See, whose object is declared to relate to the general good of the Church and it rights and discipline, provided it does not touch dogmas of faith or morals.” There is no one who does not see and understand clearly and openly how** opposed this is to the Catholic dogma of the plenary power divinely bestowed on the Roman Pontiff** by Christ the Lord Himself of feeding, ruling, and governing the universal Church.

(Pius IX, Encyclical *Quanta Cura *(1864), Denzinger 1698)

The Church has already condemned the Lefebvrist proposition that approved ecclesiastical disciplines can be harmful or dangerous to the faithful.

According to Pius VI’s condemnation, from Auctorem fidei, 78 (1794):

in so far as by the generality of the words [the proposition] includes and submits to a prescribed examination even the discipline established and approved by the Church, as if the Church which is ruled by the Spirit of God could have established discipline which is not only useless and burdensome for Christian liberty to endure, but which is even dangerous and harmful and leading to superstition and materialism,–false, rash, scandalous, dangerous, offensive to pious ears, injurious to the Church and to the Spirit of God by whom it is guided, at least erroneous.

(Pius VI, cited in Denzinger, The Sources of Catholic Dogma, translated by Roy F. Deferari from the 13th ed. Of Henry Denzinger’s Enchiridion Symbolorum, 1954, Loreto Publications, 2nd printing, 2004, pg. 393)]

Yet what do we here from Lefebvrists? The approved eccelesastical discipline of the Pauline Mass is harmful to the faith.

Marcel Lefebvre wrote, and Lefebvrists continue to erroneously assert:

“The Novus Ordo Missae, even when said with piety and respect for the liturgical rules, … bears within it a poison harmful to the faith” (An Open Letter to Confused Catholics, p. 29)

Yet Pius VI condemned this proposition in his Constitution *Auctorem fidei in 1794. *This show how UN-traditional Lefebvrists really are.

 

[CrusaderNY]

God bless you, I agree in whole, no feeling like that

A.Pelliccio:

Wasnt born yet and all i attend is the TLM mass. I grew up with the post vat II RCIA and mass in the venacular. Im almost 19 years old and never have i felt closer to GOD then when I was on my knees reciving the Lord on my tounge. (this includes my first communion and confirmation).

 

[CrusaderNY]

Here you go OTM, want anymore facts???

COMMISSION FOR RELIGIOUS RELATIONS WITH THE JEWS WE REMEMBER:
A REFLECTION ON THE SHOAH

At a press conference on March 16, 1998, Cardinal Cassidy, President of the Holy See’s Commission For Religious Relations With the Jews, presented for publication the document, We Remember: A Reflection On The Shoah. Joining him in the presentation were Bishop Pierre Duprey, Vice President of the Commission, and Father Remi Hoeckmann, O.P., its Secretary.

We publish here Cardinal Cassidy’s presentation of the document, along with Pope John Paul II’s letter to the Cardinal about the document, and the text itself.
*Presentation by Cardinal Edward Idris Cassidy

The Holy See has to date published, through its Commission for Religious Relations with the Jews, two significant documents intended for the application of the Second Vatican Council’s Declaration Nostra Aetate, n. 4: the 1974 Guidelines and Suggestions; and the 1985 Notes on the Correct Way to Present the Jews and Judaism in Preaching and Catechesis in the Catholic Church.

Today it publishes another document, which the Holy See’s Commission for Religious Relations with the Jews has prepared at the express request of His Holiness Pope John Paul II. This document, which contains a reflection on the *Shoah, is *another step on the path marked out by the Second Vatican Council in our relations with the Jewish people. In the words which His Holiness wrote in his letter to me as President of the Commission, it is our fervent hope “that the document …] will help to heal the wounds of past misunderstandings and injustices”.1

In the occasion of a meeting in Rome on 31 August 1987 of representatives of the Holy See’s Commission for Religious Relations with the Jews and of the International Jewish Committee on Interreligious Consultations, the then President of the Holy See’s Commission for Religious Relations with the Jews, Cardinal Johannes Willebrands, announced the intention of the Commission to prepare an official Catholic document on the *Shoah. *The following day, 1 September 1987, the participants in this meeting were received at Castel Gandolfo by His Holiness Pope John Paul II, who affirmed the importance of the proposed document for the Church and for the world. Citing the Exodus of the Jewish people from Egypt as a paradigm and a continuing source of hope, His Holiness expressed his deep conviction that, with God’s help, evil can be overcome in history, even the awesome evil of the Shoah.

In the Guidelines and Suggestions for Implementing the Conciliar Declaration Nostra Aetate, n. 4, published on 1 December 1974, the Holy See’s Commission recalled that “the step taken by the Council finds its historical setting in circumstances deeply affected by the memory of the persecution and massacre of Jews which took place in Europe just before and during the Second World War". Yet, as the Guidelines pointed out, "the problem of Jewish- Christian relations concerns the Church as such, since it is when “pondering her own mystery” (Nostra Aetate, n. 4) that she encounters the mystery of Israel. Therefore, even in areas where no Jewish communities exist, this remains an important problem”.

otm:

I am waiting for you to start using substantiated facts, with bated breath.

We could start with your so-called emblem of one world religion. Would you care to substantiate, with documented eveidence, that the Vatican is “pushing a one-world reoligion”? In particular, I refer to any documents eminating from the Vatican.

 

[CrusaderNY]

The Second Vatican Council Was Not Infallible
John XXIII called this a new kind of Council, a Pastoral Council. Paul VI in an audience on January 19, 1966, said that it “had avoided proclaiming in an extraordinary manner dogmas effected by the mark of infallibility.”

Vatican I
Vatican I states: “By Divine and Catholic Faith, all those things must be believed which are contained in the written word of God and in Tradition, and those which are proposed by the Church, either in a solemn pronouncement or in her ordinary and universal teaching power, to be believed as Divinely revealed.”

· The Canons of the Dogmatic Councils of the Church, approved by the Pope, must be believed.
· The ex cathedra statements must be believed.
· The ordinary teaching of the Popes must be followed.
If the Pope teaches something that is not in line with Traditional Catholic Teaching, then the Pope is speaking as a private theologian and not in his ordinary capacity. When the Pope says something that conflicts with a traditional Teaching of the Church, it is not the “Church Teaching”, because the Church has already taught. An Ex-Cathedra Statement
How to identify an ex cathedra (infallible) statement:
1) Exercised only when the Pope teaches the Universal Church a Truth of the Faith. It must be clear that he speaks as spiritual head of the Universal Church.
2) You are not allowed to argue the point, but you are bound to believe it.
3) The Pope must speak in an extraordinary manner. Some of the following words are indicators that the Pope is making a solemn definition: “We define, we declare, and state”; “We promulgate, we proclaim, and decree”; “The Roman Catholic Church firmly believes, professes, and preaches”; “we believe”; “if anyone says . . . let him be anathema”.
4) An infallible definition is made when the Teaching Church arrives at the conclusion that God requires all men to believe the particular truth defined. This is addressed to all members of the Universal Church.
5) The Pope states this in an absolute, final and irrevocable way. The Pope must define, so as to express himself in a clear and precise manner, and devoid of all ambiguity.

CrusaderNY,
Correct, the Ecumenical Council of Vatican II was pastoral, not dogmatic.
Incorrect. Every Ecumenical Council is guided by the Holy Spirit and free from error in matters of faith and morals.

Can you show me any doctrinal teaching where it says Ecumenical councils, pastoral or otherwise are not guided by the Holy Spirit? If not, aren’t you being rather *novel *instead of *traditional *in asserting such a claim? A sign of modernism, no? Don’t tell me the masonic secret service have infiltrated the Lefebrvrists!! First the modernist use of probabilism, now this!!! :eeeeek:

On the contrary, *traditional Catholicism *asserts that not just the solemn teaching authority, but also the ordinary teaching authority is guided by the Holy Spirit.

Here’s some traditional Catholic catechesis for you …

According to Pius XII:
According the Henry Denzinger’s *Enchiridion Sybolorum *(13th edition) published in 1954:
According to Pius IX (1864):
The Church has already condemned the Lefebvrist proposition that approved ecclesiastical disciplines can be harmful or dangerous to the faithful.

According to Pius VI’s condemnation, from Auctorem fidei, 78 (1794):
Yet what do we here from Lefebvrists? The approved eccelesastical discipline of the Pauline Mass is harmful to the faith.

Marcel Lefebvre wrote, and Lefebvrists continue to erroneously assert:
Yet Pius VI condemned this proposition in his Constitution *Auctorem fidei in 1794. *This show how UN-traditional Lefebvrists really are.

 

[CrusaderNY]

Sounds like a One World Religion to Me!!!

**Code: ZE04122102
****Date: 2004-12-21

****Unity of Church and All Is a Priority, Says Pope

****Holds Christmas Meeting With Officials of Roman Curia

**VATICAN CITY, DEC. 21, 2004 (Zenit.org).- John Paul II told his aides in the Roman Curia that unity among all people, beginning with believers, is his foremost concern and commitment.

“Unity of the Church and unity of the human race! I read this aspiration to unity in the faces of pilgrims of all ages,” the Pope said today when meeting with Curial officials in the traditional meeting to exchange Christmas greetings.

The Holy Father recalled that the Second Vatican Council constitution “Lumen Gentium” stated that the Church has the "mission to be a sign and instrument of profound union with God and of the unity of the whole human race."

He appealed to the cardinals, bishops, priests, religious and lay people present “to be ever more aware that communion with God and unity among all people, beginning with believers, is our priority commitment.”

John Paul II said that “it is urgent to rebuild full communion among Christians.” This was the reason he convoked the Year of the Eucharist: “Among other things, it seeks to make even more intense this thirst for unity, presenting the unique and inexhaustible source: Christ himself.”

He added that “the ecumenical effort is being intensified at different levels, thanks to constant contacts, meetings and initiatives with our brethren of the different Churches and Orthodox and Protestant ecclesial communities.”

In this connection, the Pontiff mentioned some of the year’s key ecumenical moments.

There was the visit to Rome last January of an ecumenical delegation of Finland, headed by Lutheran Bishop Eero Huovinen of Helsinki, on the occasion of the Week of Prayer for Christian Unity.

The visit also marked the fifth anniversary of the signing by Catholics and Lutherans of the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification.

This year also saw strong impetus given to the dialogue between Rome and the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, as confirmed by the two visits that Orthodox Patriarch Bartholomew I made to the Vatican, the Pope said.

The patriarch’s first visit was to participate in the feast of Sts. Peter and Paul, in June, and the second, just under a month ago, to receive from the Pope the relics of Sts. Gregory Nazianzen and John Chrysostom.

John Paul II further said he himself heartedly desired that “the return of the icon of the Mother of God of Kazan to Russia might contribute to speed up the unity of all the disciples of Christ.”

The icon was returned in his name last August to Russian Orthodox Patriarch Alexy II by Cardinal Walter Kasper, president of the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity.

The Pope said that in two especially representative moments he perceived in pilgrims’ faces this search for the unity of the Church and of all people: during the meeting of Catholic young people of Switzerland, which he attended in June, and Catholic Action’s mass meeting in Loreto, Italy.

“Believers have a great responsibility, especially to new generations, to which the Christian heritage must be transmitted in an unaltered manner,” the Pope said. “For this reason, on several occasions – especially during the pilgrimage to Lourdes – I did not fail to encourage European Catholics to remain faithful to Christ.”

To promote unity among men, the Holy Father gave the same charge to cardinals that he left in his message for the forthcoming World Day of Peace: “Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.”

John Paul II ended his assessment of 2004 by assuring that, like all Christians, he is “not afraid of difficulties” because he trusts in the Child of Bethlehem, “who out of love comes into our midst.”

otm:

I am waiting for you to start using substantiated facts, with bated breath.

We could start with your so-called emblem of one world religion. Would you care to substantiate, with documented eveidence, that the Vatican is “pushing a one-world reoligion”? In particular, I refer to any documents eminating from the Vatican.

 

[Rara_Avis]

The words ecumenical and catholic both derive fromthe Greek language and mean universal. Thus, the General Councils of the Church were called ecumenical since bishops from around the world attended them. However, Vatican II taught a new form of ecumenism - dialogue and joint worship with all the religions of the world.

Throughout the centuries a strong Catholic Church has stood as an obstacle to the amalgamation of churches into a one world church. Therefore, the liberals needed to essentially change the Catholic Church - “modernize” it and make it “acceptable” to the world. Their type of ecumenism is founded on the false belief and hope that all religions may, without great difficulty, be brought to fraternal agreement and find a common spiritual basis. In effect, this places the Catholic Church on the same level as all other religions, thereby implying that it is not the one true Church, and consequently, that there is not one true church at all. To them, "ecumenism…seemed to mean Catholics and Protestants sitting down together to decide what Catholics were not going to believe anymore.

 

[Rara_Avis]

CrusaderNY:

Is this acceptable, sent to me by a friend. I find this totally offensive and UnCatholic and we should and must stop the insanity.

http://www.traditio.com/comment/com0501v.jpg

**Emblem of the New unRoman, unCatholic One-World Religion **Being Promoted by The Vatican
In Which the Star of Mohammed Literally Overwrites Christ

I too was sent this by a friend … do we have the same friends? LOL

 

[TNT]

Catholics and Protestants sitting down together to decide what Catholics were not going to believe anymore.

That looks like the beginning of a universal creed of brotherhood.
Maybe we could set that to guitars and sing it after the the Service. Like where the suppressed Prayer to St Michael use to be?
http://www.charlestown.net/stmichael/images/michael8a.jpg

 

[Fogny]

Hello,

Vatican 11; Has been a disaster because the fruit that it has born is rotten. Heresy and Apostasy abound, confusion is everywhere. But do not despair our Lord talked about these things: When the Son of Man returns ye think he will find faith.

Fogny

 

[TNT]

Mom, is this the taprnicol? Yes, it’s the Vat II tapern…whatever you said, I think
http://www.sjyjnctn.melb.catholic.edu.au/PROGRAMS/images/tabernacle.jpg
Can we play some CD’s on it?
Not now son, maybe when your older. Give it time.
From:
sjyjnctn.melb.catholic.edu.au/PROGRAMS/images/tabernacle.jpg

 

[TNT]

Fogny:

Hello,

Vatican 11; Has been a disaster because the fruit that it has born is rotten. Heresy and Apostasy abound, confusion is everywhere. But do not despair our Lord talked about these things: When the Son of Man returns ye think he will find faith.

Fogny

Yur just bein an old Fogny!

 

[Fogny]

Hi,

And Proud to remember before the great Apostacy ( Vatican 11 ).

Old Fogny

 

[TNT]

Fogny:

Hi,
And Proud to remember before the great Apostacy ( Vatican 11 ).
Old Fogny

WELCOME TO THE TRADITIONAL COMEDIAN SOCIETY ORIENTATION.
Be very nuanced in what you post. Mix it up with church statements, for authenticity.
Otherwise you could get suspended…very bad. Like losing a soldier at Iwo Jima.
View the posts by CrusaderNY. He’s our current diplomat-in-training. When you see “suspended” under his name, then don’t use him for your model anymore. He rides the ragged edge.
Meanwhile, his posts can be viewed at:
forums.catholic-questions.org/search.php?searchid=475498

We’re all one big loving family. I was one in a family of 11. It’s like being back home again. So, just because someone calls you liberal names, breaks your wrist or puts a knot on your head, doesn’t mean they don’t love you. It’s just that they can’t find any facts handy to refute what you say. Or they can’t find any facts to back up what they say. Or they’re just having a bad day. We just take a cold shower, say the Rosary, in Latin, get some sleep, and back fresh as a spider monkey.
One more thing, watch for mama Bear06. She’s with cubs and you end up being braodsided just when you think you’ve won.
Carry on.
TNT
Great leaders made great followers first.