Why is it necessary to have one large building instead of two small ones? Many people prefer the smaller group. It is easier to know everyone you are at church with in small groups. In small groups there is m ore accountably, more support,less of not knowing who is sitting next to you.
I am sorry that i did not make myself clear. I could care less about the actual size of the churches themselves. I want to know where are there different KINDS of Church of God, for example, if they share the same heritage. Why are there different kinds of Baptists. There are large Catholic Parishes and small ones, but they are all Catholic. I am also not insinuating that there is conflict. I just want to know why they are divided in the first place.
Naming 10,000 specific ones is a little more difficult. BUT… consider…
Now I just provide a link to the online database. 
questions:VARC << So what do you say? Isn’t it time catholics abandon this attack on protestants? >>
The question from your original post. My answer is NO, Catholics do not need to abandon the 30000 “total Christian denominations number” (actually, it is now 39000+ see my article) if one is fair and accurate with the original source of the number, as I am.
To sum up, the two points to keep in mind:
(1) MOST of the 33,000+ are indeed Protestants or independent Protestants, not Catholics, not Orthodox, not Anglicans, and not pseudo-Christians (or what they call “marginal” Christian groups), but Protestants or independent Protestants.
(2) The source is counting “by country” so the number might be slightly exaggerated from the “true” number of total and unique Christian denominations. For example, there are 242 total Roman Catholic denominations (because of 242 or 238 countries, this number changes slightly) where the same source admits there is really only one Roman Catholic denomination:
“As a statistical unit in this Encyclopedia, a ‘denomination’ always refers to one single country. Thus the Roman Catholic Church, although a single organization, is described here as consisting of 236 denominations in the world’s 238 countries.” (Barrett, et al, World Christian Encyclopedia, volume 1, page 27, in the “Glossary” under definition for “Denomination” [later updated to 242]
Noting those two points, the numbers from the World Christian Encyclopedia can still be used to show Christianity is definitely fragmented. The exact number is not important and will always be changing (i.e. increasing upward if trends continue).
Phil P
It is a standard work of statistics not only for Christianity, but for religions and religious movements worldwide (see volume 2 for all the non-Christian religions). From the Barrett article: "Such numbers are always debatable, but they’re the best available. ‘We don’t really have any rivals,’ Barrett says. ‘That’s the problem.’ "
The cartoon you posted is great !!!Syele << 1. the 242 # was from a different section of that study. the 33,000 number INCLUDED 2,800 Catholic denominations. How do you feel about me insisting on using Barretts study to accurately cite 2,800 Catholic denominaitons when only 242 of them are seperate only because of regaional issues? >>
What page number is the 2,800 Catholic denominations? The 33,000 includes the 242 not 2,800 if you are referring to the “megablocs.” I need to check the source again as to what you are referring to? I am referring to the totals of the “megablocs” on pages 16-18, volume 1:
Independents (about 22000)
Protestants (about 9000)
“Marginals” (about 1600)
Orthodox (781)
Roman Catholics (242)
Anglicans (168)
Add these up, and you get the 33000+. There are not 2,800 Catholic denominations. The source maintains the 242 are really one Roman Catholic organization (volume 1, page 27, in the “Glossary” under definition for “Denomination”), and that they are separating denominations by country (volume 1, ibid). The “counting by country” thing is what the problem is if you want the “true” number of “unique” denominations worldwide. I’ve already admitted that.
Syele << 2. if your point is about unity and fragmentation of protestantism, how does citing a controversial study prove your point? >>
The study is not controversial to professional statisticians, since the people who compiled the book are professional statisticians themselves: David B. Barrett, George T. Kurian, Todd M. Johnson. It is only “controversial” in here because some people throw the numbers around and don’t cite the exact source, page numbers, and precise context. But I do.
Syele << 3. of those 2,800 Catholic denominations, why is it insignificant that they are divided by music style, style of dress etc. Yet significant when the protestant ones are divided that same way? >>
242, not 2800, if you mean the total 33000 number. All of the groups within the 242 are united to the Pope, unless I am mistaken. So organizationally and doctrinally, they are one. The Catholic or “Roman Catholic” groups within the 242 are listed as:
Armenian (Eastern-rite Catholic)
Bulgarian (Byzantine rite)
Byzantine-rite (jurisdiction for more than one ethnic group)
Chaldean (Eastern Syrian rite)
Coptic (Alexandrian rite)
Ethiopic (Alexandrian rite)
Greek (Byzantine rite)
Hungarian (Byzantine rite)
Italo-Albanian (Byzantine rite)
Jurisdiction for both Latin-rite and Eastern-rite Catholics
Latin-rite Catholic
Malankara (Syro-Antiochian, Eastern Syrian), Syro-Malankarese
Maronite (Syro-Antiochian, Western Syrian)
Melkite (Byzantine, Greek Catholic; Arabic-speaking)
plural Oriental (jurisdiction for several Eastern rites)
Romanian Byzantine rite
Russian (Byzantine rite)
Ruthenian (Byzantine rite)
Slovak (Byzantine rite)
Syro-Malabarese (Eastern Syrian)
Syrian, Syriac-speaking (Syro-Antiochian, West Syrian)
Ukrainian Byzantine rite
If you can give me a page number I can check the source again for your 2800. I am referring to the 2001, 2nd edition. Your main totals are on pages 16 to 18, volume 1 of World Christian Encyclopedia.
Granted, some of the Protestant and “independent” divisions are brought about by minor issues. But division organizationally for whatever reason is still division. The challenge was to “NAME THEM” (i.e. the 33000 total Christian denominations, or at least 50 of them) – I’ve named them. So has Gordon Conwell Seminary’s "World Christian Database". All we Christians need to “live” with the true number, whatever it is.
http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/DenomCartoon.png
Phil P
Well as far as I am concerned you wouldn’t need to “drive me” to Mass, although I’m a Protestant I sometimes attend Catholic masses …
Is this not actually an attack on Catholicism? Did it not begin with the ego of a disobedient Priest named Luther? The Catholic Church is striving to restore Christian unity, as can be seen in her work to reconcile with the Eastern Church and others.
I do not have my own personal copy of the encyclopedia. I wish I did. but I see other sources citing it in many places, some in depth. Let’s look at this 242 more closely.Syele << 1. the 242 # was from a different section of that study. the 33,000 number INCLUDED 2,800 Catholic denominations. How do you feel about me insisting on using Barretts study to accurately cite 2,800 Catholic denominaitons when only 242 of them are seperate only because of regaional issues? >>
What page number is the 2,800 Catholic denominations? The 33,000 includes the 242 not 2,800 if you are referring to the “megablocs.” I need to check the source again as to what you are referring to? I am referring to the totals of the “megablocs” on pages 16-18, volume 1:
Independents (about 22000)
Protestants (about 9000)
“Marginals” (about 1600)
Orthodox (781)
Roman Catholics (242)
Anglicans (168)
Add these up, and you get the 33000+. There are not 2,800 Catholic denominations. The source maintains the 242 are really one Roman Catholic organization (volume 1, page 27, in the “Glossary” under definition for “Denomination”), and that they are separating denominations by country (volume 1, ibid). The “counting by country” thing is what the problem is if you want the “true” number of “unique” denominations worldwide. I’ve already admitted that.
It’s controversial among Apologists. Statisticians do not define terminology for religions. And defining Denominations like that has nothing to do with how it’s REALLY defined. While I’m at it lets consider his definition of “protestant.” He lists Protestant separate from Independents. Yet, I doubt you would. Who’s right, the statisticians or you and I? Maybe if they got some statisticians as rivals they’d be compelled to count something that actually exists instead of getting to define things willy-nilly.The study is not controversial to professional statisticians, since the people who compiled the book are professional statisticians themselves: David B. Barrett, George T. Kurian, Todd M. Johnson. It is only “controversial” in here because some people throw the numbers around and don’t cite the exact source, page numbers, and precise context. But I do.
I believe the 2,800 quote was in Barrett’s breakdown of the 242 divisions. If I recall correctly, the definition for what constitutes “division” was even more skewed than the definition of “denominations”. If I define “catholic” to mean "people who drive down my street, I may be able to accurately count them. that wouldn’t mean it was all really catholics who drove on my street. The definitions in the whole thing are really messed up.
If the division is still a division, then argue for unity and don’t cite statisticians as linguists.Granted, some of the Protestant and “independent” divisions are brought about by minor issues. But division organizationally for whatever reason is still division. The challenge was to “NAME THEM” (i.e. the 33000 total Christian denominations, or at least 50 of them) – I’ve named them. So has Gordon Conwell Seminary’s "World Christian Database". All we Christians need to “live” with the true number, whatever it is.
God is good!!! Amen.
. about what is happening here. I ask your patience, thank you.lies, damn lies, and statistics.
I have been watching people throw around ridiculous numbers on the number of protestant denominations for too long, Catholics use it because it has been used by respected Catholic Apologists, and because it is a discussion starter( kind of like breaking the ice with a hand grenade).:bigyikes:
The number is ridiculous number, and Protestants, for all your talk about thinking for yourselves, using your own reasoning and God given brains,-how could you let pass what you knew in your gut was just not right? .
That number,** 33,000 Protestant denominations** comes from a single source…who either doesn’t understand the concept of Church, Denomination or communion; whose research/ record keeping is more anecdotal, eccentric collector / hobbyist than a scientist; . Whatever his story, he is really annoying the heck out of me.
Source:
He is the single source of the 33,000 number; you will not find another independent source which duplicates his numbers;
The reason they are so out of whack is because he either never knew, or decided to redefined the word “denomination”,to fit his style of research.
Unfortunately the mainstream media who are ignorant about all things Christian, and wouldn’t know Holy Oil from snake oil, keep using his numbers like they were gospel truth-this includes Encyclopedia Britannica, World Almanac, innumerable journalists, and not a few Catholic Apologists (who really should know better).
HERE’S THE SECRET TO THE 33,000 Protestant denominations.
He redefined the word denomination (I’m being kind, there’s another word for what he’s done, and if it was in field that depended on his research to make life and death decisions, the man would be in prison).
A denomination is defined in this Encyclopedia as an organized aggregate of worship centers or congregations of similar ecclesiastical tradition within a specific country; i.e. as an organized Christian church or tradition or religious group or community of believers, within a specific country, whose component congregations and members are called by the same denominational name in different areas, regarding themselves as one autonomous Christian church distinct from other denominations, churches and traditions. As defined here, world Christianity consists of 6 major ecclesiastico-cultural blocs, divided into 300 major ecclesiastical traditions, composed of over 33,000 distinct denominations in 238 countries, these denominations themselves being composed of over 3,400,000 worship centers, churches or congregations.”
(Barrett et al, volume 1, page 16, Table 1-5.)
So the 7 groups making up the Anglican “ecclesiastico-cultural mega-blocs”(btw, not to shabby for not bad in it’s 500 year history) are not 7 denominations;
Each individual country gets it’s own count; even if the Churches are part of a single body in communion, theologically and organizationally. If there is one in Australia and one in Bolivia, (kind of like there are Catholic Churches in many countries , each is counted separately.
So instead of 7 Anglican-type communions, there are 168.
AND THE ROMAN CATHOLICS GET THE SAME TREATMENT; if you bother to check, you would find out that you are not a the “One Holy Catholic Church” but , according to his way of accounting, the Roman Catholic Church consists of 236 denominations in the world’s 238 countries. And that number doesn’t even take into account the schismatic/dissenting groups mentioned in previous posts.
Are you beginning to see how this Math is going?
Here’s the long and short of it-
The 33,000 are subdivided into “6 major ecclesiastico-cultural mega-blocs”, and ordering them by denomination size we have the figures for the year 2000:
So the 33,000 number is from the total of these 6 mega-blocs:Code:* Independents (about 22000) * Protestants (about 9000) * "Marginals" (about 1600) * Orthodox (781)-most of which are in communion with each other * Roman Catholics (242) * Anglicans (168)
22000 + 9000 + 1600 + 781 + 242 + 168 = 33,000+
From a Review by from Richard N. Ostling, Associated Press, 19 May 2001:
… Barrett has doggedly visited most of the lands in person, collecting raw material, including national census figures and United Nations data, and recruiting the 444 specialists who feed him material. Among them: Vatican missions librarian Willi Henkel and editor J. Gordon Melton of the Encyclopedia of American Religions. Barrett’s encyclopedia sought to count each human being in each religion and religious subcategory in each country as of 1900, 1970, 1990, 1995 and 2000, with projections to 2025.
Hi
Adoration, Monks of
Tell me where you disagree with inchrist101, VARC, Manny and myself.
If you cover my airfare and have a guest room, I will drive you to every Mass in France.would you be ready to come to France just to drive me to Mass ? How kind of you !
