43,000 denomination source

[Tomdstone]

it doesn’t matter to Jesus. But it matters to us for the Liturgical Symbolism in the Mass or Divine Liturgy. In the Rites that use unleavened bread, they so it because Jesus most likely broke unleavened Bread during the Last Supper. The Rites that do not use unleavened bread are emphasizing that Jesus comes to us in ordinary, everyday things. Neither is wrong. It simply has to do with different symbolism used during the Liturgy…

First we are told that there is one version of the truth. Now we are told that there are two versions:
Version 1: Unleavened Bread was used during the Last Supper.
Version 2: Leavened Bread was used during the last Supper.

Truth my friend, truth. There is only one version of it and it only resides in the Catholic church…

 

[phil19034]

The claim is that there is one version of truth. What is the one version of truth with reference to burning at the stake? Does the Holy Spirit want heretics to be burned at the stake?

That was not dogma or doctrine. Also, that was not the Magisterium of the Church. That was secular government with some participation of individual Catholics, whether they were Cardinals, Bishops, Religious Priests, Diocesan Priests, Abbots, Brothers, Friars, Laity, etc.

Plus, a lot of times, when they were bishops or abbots, they were Prince-Bishops, Prince-Abbotts, or Crown-Cardinals. Meaning, they had official roles in the secular government, plus were the local (arch)diocesan (arch)bishop or local abbot.

The Church eventually stopped this practice because the running a secular government (especially when not everyone was Catholic) often contradicted their role in the Church.

The sentencing of heretics (which was against secular law) was the ruling of the local government. Often local Church officials were called in as “expert witnesses” or participated. But more often than not, the priests involved played major roles in getting the convicted off the hook and protected them with due process of law.

 

[phil19034]

First we are told that there is one version of the truth. Now we are told that there are two versions:
Version 1: Unleavened Bread was used during the Last Supper.
Version 2: Leavened Bread was used during the last Supper.

catholic.com/quickquestions/eastern-rite-catholics-use-leavened-bread-in-holy-communion-but-roman-rite-catholics-
ewtn.com/library/Liturgy/zlitur85.htm

Apparently, there is a disagreement regarding whether the Last Supper took place during Passover. Most Catholics (especially Latin Catholics) and some Oriental Orthodox believe that the Last Supper did take place during the week of Passover.

Matthew 26:17 says:

Now on the first day of Unleavened Bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying, “Where will you have us prepare for you to eat the Passover?”

Matthew 26:18-30 goes on to say:

He said, “Go into the city to such a one, and say to him, ‘The Teacher says, My time is at hand; I will keep the Passover at your house with my disciples.’” 19 And the disciples did as Jesus had directed them, and they prepared the Passover.

20 When it was evening, he sat at table with the twelve disciples; 21 and as they were eating, he said, “Truly, I say to you, one of you will betray me.” 22 And they were very sorrowful, and began to say to him one after another, “Is it I, Lord?” 23 He answered, “He who has dipped his hand in the dish with me, will betray me. 24 The Son of man goes as it is written of him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! It would have been better for that man if he had not been born.” 25 Judas, who betrayed him, said, “Is it I, Master?” He said to him, “You have said so.”

26 Now as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and broke it, and gave it to the disciples and said, “Take, eat; this is my body.” 27 And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, saying, “Drink of it, all of you; 28 for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. 29 I tell you I shall not drink again of this fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom.”

30 And when they had sung a hymn, they went out to the Mount of Olives.

Scott Hahn has a wonderful explanation of the Forth Cup and why when Jesus says “I thrust” just before He dies on the Cross, it completes the Passover.

lighthousecatholicmedia.org/store/title/seven-last-sayings-of-christ?promoCode=104130
lighthousecatholicmedia.org/store/title/understanding-the-eucharist?promoCode=104130
lighthousecatholicmedia.org/store/title/the-fourth-cup?promoCode=104130

God Bless

 

[benhur]

*That was not dogma or doctrine * Also, that was not the Magisterium of the Church. That was secular government with some participation of individual Catholics, whether they were Cardinals, Bishops, Religious Priests, Diocesan Priests, Abbots, Brothers, Friars, Laity, etc.

Balogni. That was doctrine based(for some P’s also). Take a look at thread dealing with “Trent and smoking gun”.

Blessings

 

[Tomdstone]

That was not dogma or doctrine. Also, that was not the Magisterium of the Church. That was secular government with some participation of individual Catholics, whether they were Cardinals, Bishops, Religious Priests, Diocesan Priests, Abbots, Brothers, Friars, Laity, etc…

Is a papal bull the Magistgerium of the Church?
In the Papal Bull, Exsurge Domine, this statement was condemned along with a bunch of other ones:

papalencyclicals.net/Leo10/l10exdom.htm

“[condemned] 33. That heretics be burned is against the will of the Spirit.”

But why or in what aspects was that sentence condemned?

“With the advice and consent of these our venerable brothers, with mature deliberation on each and every one of the above theses, and by the authority of almighty God, the blessed Apostles Peter and Paul, and our own authority, we condemn, reprobate, and reject completely each of these theses or errors as either heretical, scandalous, false, offensive to pious ears or seductive of simple minds, and against Catholic truth. By listing them, we decree and declare that all the faithful of both sexes must regard them as condemned, reprobated, and rejected . . . We restrain all in the virtue of holy obedience and under the penalty of an automatic major excommunication…”

 

[Tomdstone]

Apparently, there is a disagreement regarding whether the Last Supper took place during Passover.

Is there one version of the truth about this?

Wrong again Tom…
Truth my friend, truth. There is only one version of it and it only resides in the Catholic church.

 

[phil19034]

Is there one version of the truth about this?

Yes. The Last Supper either took place during Passover or it didn’t.

But the use of the Leavened vs. Unleavened bread isn’t a matter of Dogma or Doctrine.

 

[Tomdstone]

The Last Supper either took place during Passover or it didn’t.

But is it not true that in the Catholic Church there are two versions of when it took place?

 

[Digitonomy]

The fact that many Protestants don’t like being called a denomination is irrelevant because Catholics don’t believe we are a denomination either.

We’ve discussed this before, and from what I can tell the Church makes no denial that it is a denomination, and even uses the term occasionally in its documents.

It is certainly true that many Catholics object to the idea that we are a denomination. I think that especially in conversions like this thread, they get the idea that “denomination” is a dirty word.

 

[phil19034]

But is it not true that in the Catholic Church there are two versions of when it took place?

There might be two theories, but it only happened once. This isn’t “Back to the Future” where we can change the past.

 

[Tomdstone]

There might be two theories, but it only happened once. This isn’t “Back to the Future” where we can change the past.

The word version means an account of what happened. There was only one event that happened once, but there are two accounts of what happened.
Version 1: Unleavened Bread was used during the Last Supper.
Version 2: Leavened Bread was used during the last Supper.
The claim was that there is only one version of what happened and this one version is residing in the Catholic Church.

Wrong again Tom…
Truth my friend, truth. There is only one version of it and it only resides in the Catholic church…

 

[KathleenGee]

Ben Hur…the fullness of Christ was completed in the Church, not the Bible at Nicea.

There are 3 dogmas, one of infallibility, the other two of Mary’s immaculate conception and her assumption into heaven…

You say ongoing doctrines of Mary…the Catechism states the fullness of Christ in regards to Mary…these are doctrines. Dogmas come from the faith of the people, shared by pope and then because the bishops concur, then the pope can declare a dogma…on tradition of faith already there based on the ‘senses’ of Scripture.

 

[ProdigalSun]

Thank God Catholics do not have to figure out which one has the authority from God. Jesus gave His Catholic Church that Authority when He founded it while He was still here on earth and it has been with us for over 2,.000 years. Can anyone else make that claim??? How old is your denomination and who founded it?? God Bless, Memaw

Hi Memaw, Mine has the exact same authority as yours does… I’m Catholic:shrug:

 

[KathleenGee]

The Church decided to celebrate Passover to follow the Jewish memorial. There are books out there on the Liturgical Year.

There was only one Church established…at Pentecost…He Ekklesia Katholika…the Church so named by St. Ignatius of Antioch on his way to martyrdom…in 107 AD.

Because Emperor Hadrian moved the center of the Roman Empire to Asia Minor…he thus began persecuting the Christians there to the point of wiping them out if not for Emperor Constantine…who was not a Christian until a few days before his death. Subsequently, the Byzantine Church developed differently in that it included within the Ecclesia imperialism. So you see greater ties between nation and Orthodox.

I have begun to use the word, ‘derivatives’ from mainline denominations…and yes, I could take pictures of the different fronts along the streets of individual ecclesia communities.

The Church recognizes those as ‘churches’ which have hierarchy…Anglican and certain Lutheran churches have bishops. The problem with Protestantism is that it has dropped most of the 7 sacraments…7 meaning completion…and the Church is not superior…but has the completed, or fullness of understanding of Christ in Word and Sacrament…and with both spiritual and physical hierarchy and being.

Ecclesia communities are those devoid of hierarchy and most of the 7 sacraments and the communion of saints, that in my regard are denying themselves so much , so much more of Christianity.

 

[KathleenGee]

Another for Ben Hur…if there is one Catholic left in town…the Church still exists there.

 

[benhur]

Ben Hur…the fullness of Christ was completed in the Church, not the Bible at Nicea.

There are 3 dogmas, one of infallibility, the other two of Mary’s immaculate conception and her assumption into heaven…

You say ongoing doctrines of Mary…the Catechism states the fullness of Christ in regards to Mary…these are doctrines. Dogmas come from the faith of the people, shared by pope and then because the bishops concur, then the pope can declare a dogma…on tradition of faith already there based on the ‘senses’ of Scripture.

Hi K

Thank you. So the Assumption is a doctrine and dogma while her being Mediatrix is doctrine but not dogma yet ? That dogma is sort of extended or further or higher declaration of a doctrine.

.the fullness of Christ was completed in the Church, not the Bible at Nicea

Yes, we do not want bibliolotry as much as we do not want churchalotry.

Some might object that Christ needs "completion’’ or "filling’’, that His Body, us, complete Him. It is true in this sense however, that His fullness is being completed thru us as in a ongoing process (per Pulpit commentary). The general tone is that Christ fills us,fills the church. The Church is being completed in Him.

Blessings

 

[benhur]

Another for Ben Hur…if there is one Catholic left in town…the Church still exists there.

Well yes, even the Catholic Church. A called out one is a called out one (ecclesia). How about one lonely Methodist ? Could he be the Church in town (provided there are no Catholics or Baptists around of course) ?

 

[benhur]

The Church decided to celebrate Passover to follow the Jewish memorial. There are books out there on the Liturgical Year.

There was only one Church established…at Pentecost…He Ekklesia Katholika…the Church so named by St. Ignatius of Antioch on his way to martyrdom…in 107 AD.

Because Emperor Hadrian moved the center of the Roman Empire to Asia Minor…he thus began persecuting the Christians there to the point of wiping them out if not for Emperor Constantine…who was not a Christian until a few days before his death. Subsequently, the Byzantine Church developed differently in that it included within the Ecclesia imperialism. So you see greater ties between nation and Orthodox.

I have begun to use the word, ‘derivatives’ from mainline denominations…and yes, I could take pictures of the different fronts along the streets of individual ecclesia communities.

The Church recognizes those as ‘churches’ which have hierarchy….Anglican and certain Lutheran churches have bishops. The problem with Protestantism is that it has dropped most of the 7 sacraments…7 meaning completion…and the Church is not superior…but has the completed, or fullness of understanding of Christ in Word and Sacrament…and with both spiritual and physical hierarchy and being.

Ecclesia communities are those devoid of hierarchy and most of the 7 sacraments and the communion of saints, that in my regard are denying themselves so much , so much more of Christianity.

K, so you see a difference between church and *ecclessial community * as in “heirarchy” being the difference ? Do any communities not have any heirarchy , no pastor /minister ?

 

[Louie1983]

You claim that there is only one version of truth? It seems to me that there are two versions:For examples:

What is the one truth about limbo? Is it true that unbaptized babies go to limbo as taught in the Baltimore catechism for many years?
What is the one truth about the Blood? Was the Blood shed for many or was the Blood shed for all?
What is the one truth about leavened bread? Should the Mass be said with leavened Bread or with unleavened Bread?
What is the one truth about the creed? Should the creed be said with the filioque or without the filioque?
What is the one truth about the reception of Holy Communion. Should the reception be in the hand or on the tongue?
What is the one truth about altar railings? Should a church have altar railings or not?

Oh Dear…

 

[benhur]

Thank God Catholics do not have to figure out which one has the authority from God.

Hold on, are you saying Catholics don’t have to think, assess, even figure out where Godly authority rests? I beg to differ. They are just like everybody else in the Body. After all, were you born Catholic or I Baptist or Lutheran? Or somewhere down the line do we not all have to make a rational decision, even a reaffirmation of where we say, feel, believe His authority rests ?

How old is your denomination and who founded it??

“For I hoped that greater age would speak, and that a multitude of years would teach wisdom.*They that are aged are not the wise men, *neither do the ancients understand judgment.But, as I see, there is a spirit in men, and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth understanding.” Job 32:7,8,9