L
Luke-Suncook
Guest
zfgj su awruy aqj wsujujfhm
Last edited:
- Status
L
Luke-Suncook
Guest
SRG QERTY WRRwryui e y6yi
Last edited:
B
Benadam
Guest
Exactly.
John is depicting in Revelation our entire journey through salvation history from the fall to final victory. Our journey is communicated to us in terms of a war against good and evil. A spiritual war. It’s an invisible war that manifests visibly. One manifests in time the other does not.
It doesn’t reveal the time of things but how it all unfolds from beginning to end
I
Last edited:
L
Luke-Suncook
Guest
Revelation 1:1-3
1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
Last edited:
S
spina1953
Guest
It seems to me that revelation at least in the past couple of centuries has become the book of prophecy Revelation is the most difficult book in the Bible to understand. For example i remember in the 1960’s so many books about revelation were seemingly everywhere. The neoapocalyptic authors the new day prophets of doom warning us of disaster that will take place at a certain time and place, yet when the moment arrives nothing happens. its sometimes some one like a Hitler or some one from the Middle East that comes and this or that is going t o take place. he Book of Revelation contains symbols and allegorical language they were never meant to be taken as literal descriptions nor is the symbolism capable of being pictured realistically. John used these images to suggest Christ’s universal power and knowledge, The Book of revelation I think can’t be adequately comprehended except against the historical background which caused its writing
In order i think to even try and understand revelation one has to understand what was happening during the first century following the death of Jesus. We do know from history that early Christians faced persecutions and martyr doom for their beliefs, and it appears John was writing Revelation to bring hope that all was not in vain and that Christ has won over evil.
So many who it seems that read Revelation seem to think it seems prophecy of whatever is to come and so try and predict when all this they think is going to happen, date and time and who it is etc. I’m sure that those Christians of the first century understood Revelation, and what John was saying, but many in our day and time have far different understandings then first century Christians did so that in the end one fails to gain the true meaning of what Revelation has to say.
In order i think to even try and understand revelation one has to understand what was happening during the first century following the death of Jesus. We do know from history that early Christians faced persecutions and martyr doom for their beliefs, and it appears John was writing Revelation to bring hope that all was not in vain and that Christ has won over evil.
So many who it seems that read Revelation seem to think it seems prophecy of whatever is to come and so try and predict when all this they think is going to happen, date and time and who it is etc. I’m sure that those Christians of the first century understood Revelation, and what John was saying, but many in our day and time have far different understandings then first century Christians did so that in the end one fails to gain the true meaning of what Revelation has to say.
T
Techno2000
Guest
666 indicated once, that is to say, for the first time, expresses the year 666, six hundred and sixty-six. In this period of history, the Antichrist is manifested through the phenomenon of Islam, which directly denies the mystery of the divine Trinity and the divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ. Islamism, with its military force, breaks loose everywhere, destroying all the ancient christian communities, and invades Europe and it is only through my extraordinary motherly intervention, begged for powerfully by the Holy Father, that it does not succeed in destroying Christianity completely.stacks26:
Islam has been the enemy of Jews, Christians, and the world for 1,400 years. My focus is on Islam because the biblical evidence all points to Islam. Most people don’t know the abominations that occur in Islam on a daily basis.
743/1235
Last edited:
L
Luke-Suncook
Guest
aRT rtuy wruy wrum wsu dty
Last edited:
S
spina1953
Guest
Luke-Suncook, I never said from a historical background of the OT. I was referring to the time of when it was written and heard. If revelation was written by John the Apostle then it had to be written before 100 AD so that would make it early on in the persecutions of Christians not late as you state. Why would John the Apostle write it for us in our time? John had no idea what life was going to be in our time that in and of itself make not reasonable sense. You have no way of knowing with any certainty that nobody has ever had the true meaning of revelation. As for prophets they sure are a lot of them using revelations for their prophecies that never seem to come true.
So I disagree with what you posted. I think the more knowledgeable of Christ history as well as theology have a better understanding then the lay person does.
So I disagree with what you posted. I think the more knowledgeable of Christ history as well as theology have a better understanding then the lay person does.
L
Luke-Suncook
Guest
w6i n wuyuje wtyui w 5w6u w6 ui
Last edited:
S
spina1953
Guest
Luke Sunccook, sounds to me you think then that John wrote revelation just for the people of the future and not for the people of his times, That really makes no sense why would he do that? if that were so then all that John wrote Gospel and Epistles were meant for people in the future and not for those during his lifetime. male Jews did know how to read and some Roman’s knew how to read but the vast majority did not know how to read let alone know how to write. and this idea that the Church had no times to read preach, understand or copy and distribute also makes no sense since by the end of the first century these works were known and passed on to other churches. The Scripture are for all generations not just ours and Revelation si not just for us only but for all generations it was never meant by John to be just totally for our day. i am not sure where you get that idea.
L
Luke-Suncook
Guest
sfj rwu wu wr6u r
Last edited:
S
spina1953
Guest
Hi Luke-Suncook, I rather doubt that John was thinking of future people reading revelation that he wrote. John like other Apocalyptic writers presents himself as part of a group persecuted for its faith. John sets himself the task of strengthening his brethren by unraveling to them the meaning of the oppression they are enduring and the glorious goal of their suffering which would make dating it sometime around the 85-95 time period although some have said as early as the 40’s to 50’s though not agreed to that date as yet. Now i use the Catholic Bible and not the KJV but my understanding is that as far as the NT translations goes are close.
I guess is why would John write to the 7 Churches and include the rest of Revelation if if it were not meant for them? That really makes not sense to me that John would write for the 7 Churches but the rest of Revelation was not meant for them or had no clue as to Rev. 6- 22. I would imagine the people he wrote to and heard it would have understood the meanings found in Revelation, which have been forgotten over the centuries till few understand the meanings John used in writing revelation and what he was saying. There is course so many different interpretations concerning revelation mostly about when and how the world is to end to the point that it is now confusing as to the real meaning John had in mind when he wrote it.
The Book of Revelation was not even accepted til around the third century due to whether or not John the Apostle actually wrote it and whether or not it was inspired writing. Interpretation are all over the board when it comes to Revelation and what it actually says and what its meanings are. I think most educated Catholic’s who do read Revelation and whatever understandings they have are checked against what the Catholic Church understands it. Private interpretations are not something most Catholic’s are into since one can go astray from what the Catholic Church teaches.
Can Revelation have meaning for us in our day and age? yes just as the rest of Scripture does, there is not question about it, since God’s Word is for every generation because it is a living Word. True, the 7 Churches in Asia Minor are real Churches, that was never a question so far as it goes. Yes, Revelations is an amazing book. That being said, its sad that so many like to think it is some doomsday book about how and when the world is to end.
Lastly, Since Revelation abounds with so many images and symbols, and allegorical language that in of itself makes the Book extremely difficult to understand Its a type of writing that went out of favor around 200 AD. Modern readers of Revelation find it hard to understand what all the symbols mean. which is the very reason why Catholic’s reply on Catholic Church teachings on it rather then their own interpretation.
I guess is why would John write to the 7 Churches and include the rest of Revelation if if it were not meant for them? That really makes not sense to me that John would write for the 7 Churches but the rest of Revelation was not meant for them or had no clue as to Rev. 6- 22. I would imagine the people he wrote to and heard it would have understood the meanings found in Revelation, which have been forgotten over the centuries till few understand the meanings John used in writing revelation and what he was saying. There is course so many different interpretations concerning revelation mostly about when and how the world is to end to the point that it is now confusing as to the real meaning John had in mind when he wrote it.
The Book of Revelation was not even accepted til around the third century due to whether or not John the Apostle actually wrote it and whether or not it was inspired writing. Interpretation are all over the board when it comes to Revelation and what it actually says and what its meanings are. I think most educated Catholic’s who do read Revelation and whatever understandings they have are checked against what the Catholic Church understands it. Private interpretations are not something most Catholic’s are into since one can go astray from what the Catholic Church teaches.
Can Revelation have meaning for us in our day and age? yes just as the rest of Scripture does, there is not question about it, since God’s Word is for every generation because it is a living Word. True, the 7 Churches in Asia Minor are real Churches, that was never a question so far as it goes. Yes, Revelations is an amazing book. That being said, its sad that so many like to think it is some doomsday book about how and when the world is to end.
Lastly, Since Revelation abounds with so many images and symbols, and allegorical language that in of itself makes the Book extremely difficult to understand Its a type of writing that went out of favor around 200 AD. Modern readers of Revelation find it hard to understand what all the symbols mean. which is the very reason why Catholic’s reply on Catholic Church teachings on it rather then their own interpretation.
L
Luke-Suncook
Guest
sah ywruh wruyh wrty
Last edited:
L
Luke-Suncook
Guest
sratjh wrtuyh luits rty
Last edited:
S
spina1953
Guest
Hi Luke-Suncook, I’m not sure you can agree that at the time the Apostles were being persecuted but then say the Apocalypse does not much make sense to you that it could have been written for the generation of that time. That would imply that John was writing it only for future generations. During the first 3 centuries Christians were being persecuted at various times. Yet, the Gospels were still being read in underground churches along with Paul’s Epistles. They were being read passed on and copied wherever there were Churches and Christians. There are just too many facts that dispute your premise. Since the book of Revelation was written in rather poor Greek, no translations would have been needed since nearly all that was written that is in the NT was written in Greek. Greek was the main language spoken by most Roman’s of the time.
Apocalyptic literature was popular from about 200 BC to about 200 AD. Apocalyptic writers take the past, present and future and mingle it all together, which makes it difficult to discern when they are talking about the past or the present Next, they look to the future and predict it, based on past and present experiences. In the book of Revelation those experiences are the sufferings of the early Christian community. They say " Here we are, and this is how we are suffering, and this is what’s going on, and these are the promises of the Lord to us during His life; therefore, this shall take place in the future. its important to understand the difference between prophecy and apocalypse, because all doomsday writers now days claim revelation is prophetic. But the book is not prophetic, in the sense they claim.
This is how I understand revelation 1 you used the last verse to state a question. That verse to me means something different from your thought. its more an allusion for contemporary imperial power the emperors crowns were decorated with the 7 planets of the world, indicating that they were the power of the universe. But that Jesus holds the fullness of authority over all the CHurches and fullness of protection over the Christian community. The whole world is in Jesus’s hands.
I see the 7 stars as are the angels presiding spirits of the 7 Churches and the 7 lampstands or candlesticks the 7 Churches. Just because those particular Churches no longer exist has nothing to do with the Throne of God.
Apocalyptic literature was popular from about 200 BC to about 200 AD. Apocalyptic writers take the past, present and future and mingle it all together, which makes it difficult to discern when they are talking about the past or the present Next, they look to the future and predict it, based on past and present experiences. In the book of Revelation those experiences are the sufferings of the early Christian community. They say " Here we are, and this is how we are suffering, and this is what’s going on, and these are the promises of the Lord to us during His life; therefore, this shall take place in the future. its important to understand the difference between prophecy and apocalypse, because all doomsday writers now days claim revelation is prophetic. But the book is not prophetic, in the sense they claim.
This is how I understand revelation 1 you used the last verse to state a question. That verse to me means something different from your thought. its more an allusion for contemporary imperial power the emperors crowns were decorated with the 7 planets of the world, indicating that they were the power of the universe. But that Jesus holds the fullness of authority over all the CHurches and fullness of protection over the Christian community. The whole world is in Jesus’s hands.
I see the 7 stars as are the angels presiding spirits of the 7 Churches and the 7 lampstands or candlesticks the 7 Churches. Just because those particular Churches no longer exist has nothing to do with the Throne of God.
S
spina1953
Guest
Hi Luke-Suncook, I agree the Church accepts the Book of revelation as inspired just all of the books in the Bible. I get it that you don’t want a Church to dictate what to believe., and rather study Scripture and come to your own conclusions as to what it means and says. If I remember correctly Peter spoke out against that sort of thing when he talked about how difficult it was for many to understand Paul’s writings and so distort his meanings just as they do the rest of Scripture. I do concur that one should read Scripture and there is much one can understand, but there is also much that is difficult to understand without some authority to say what it says and means. This is where the Catholic Church comes in since they were the one’s who decided which Books in the Bible was inspired and which one’s were not under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Without that anyone could decide as to whatever they wanted Scripture mean and say. This is way there are so many contradicting interpretations and meanings to the point where one becomes its own authority .
Since the 1960’s I have more doomsday books predicting all sorts of things all claiming to know and understand the Book of Revelation, yet none of what they wrote ever came true. On to of that each had differing interpretations. They to claim to study the Bible. You claim that revelation is not difficult to figure out if that were so nearly everyone would have the same understanding of its meanings, which is not the case. Lastly I really doubt very much that the OT prophets saw Islam or even knew what that was. That seems to me to be a real stritch.
Since the 1960’s I have more doomsday books predicting all sorts of things all claiming to know and understand the Book of Revelation, yet none of what they wrote ever came true. On to of that each had differing interpretations. They to claim to study the Bible. You claim that revelation is not difficult to figure out if that were so nearly everyone would have the same understanding of its meanings, which is not the case. Lastly I really doubt very much that the OT prophets saw Islam or even knew what that was. That seems to me to be a real stritch.
L
Luke-Suncook
Guest
sdfh wruyh k wru rtu 6
Last edited:
S
superblue
Guest
What if I get bored over the weekend and decide to tattoo 666 on my body would that fit for what you are looking for ???
But then again one has to remember that The Book of Revelations is about Salvation, not the end times and the coming of satan and the tribulation and everything else that makes people declare every so often that the end of the world is coming in a year or so.
But then again one has to remember that The Book of Revelations is about Salvation, not the end times and the coming of satan and the tribulation and everything else that makes people declare every so often that the end of the world is coming in a year or so.
L
Luke-Suncook
Guest
I read them too and understand. I know what they all believe and that too is what I’m against.
Last edited:
L
Luke-Suncook
Guest
Salvation???
Revelation 9 King James Version (KJV)
1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.
7 And the shapes of the locusts were like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads were as it were crowns like gold, and their faces were as the faces of men.
8 And they had hair as the hair of women, and their teeth were as the teeth of lions.
9 And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings was as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle.
10 And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months.
11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.
12 One woe is past; and, behold, there come two woes more hereafter.
13 And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God,
14 Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.
15 And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.
16 And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them.
17 And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone.
18 By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths.
19 For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails: for their tails were like unto serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt.
20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:
21 Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.
Revelation 9 King James Version (KJV)
1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.
7 And the shapes of the locusts were like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads were as it were crowns like gold, and their faces were as the faces of men.
8 And they had hair as the hair of women, and their teeth were as the teeth of lions.
9 And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings was as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle.
10 And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months.
11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.
12 One woe is past; and, behold, there come two woes more hereafter.
13 And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God,
14 Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.
15 And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.
16 And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them.
17 And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone.
18 By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths.
19 For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails: for their tails were like unto serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt.
20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:
21 Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.
Last edited:
- Status