8 Simple Rules for dating a Duggar Daughter

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Re the alcohol comment; are you talking about the secular examples of casual acquaintances having sex?

Of course–our current US casual sex system is unimaginable without lots of alcohol.

And regarding Regency customs and books, as I recall Marianne and Willoughby do go on “curricle” rides together alone. And while their behavior is regarded as borderline scandalous, no one ever accuses Marianne of being unchaste, even though Willoughby is later found to have seduced at least one woman, Eliza, and I suspect likely seduced his eventual wife as well (why else would a heiress who I’m sure had many suitors, marry a man she knew to be a “libertine”?)

I was thinking about those long rides together alone between Marianne and Willoughby, and as I recall, they made Elinor very uncomfortable for her sister. But again, I think it might be a case where the outing would have been appropriate if they had been engaged, but not otherwise. One of the key issues in Sense and Sensibility is that Marianne and Willoughby are doing a lot of stuff that would be appropriate for an engaged couple, but is scandalous without a formal relationship. In Northanger Abbey, there’s also an episode where the heroine goes for a carriage outing with a fast young man who is a good friend of her brother (with her brother and the fast young man’s sister in another carriage???) but a new acquaintance to her and the heroine definitely feels uncomfortable about the propriety of the outing (and even more so when an overnight stay is suggested), but she is persuaded to go by the almost universal pleading of her social circle. So my guess is that it seems to have been at best grey area.

**Interestingly, I think private co-ed walks have more of a stamp of approval from Jane Austen. I can’t pull up a lot of examples, but I can vaguely remember a number of examples from the books. Mr. Darcy, for instance, was hoping to meet Elizabeth on her walks, and given Mr. Darcy’s general icy propriety, that strongly suggests that it was an OK thing to do. **

It also seems that “chaperones” in those times weren’t actually hovering over a couple the way the Duggars mandate, they were close enough to serve as a deterrent to sexual sin, but not so close that the couple had no privacy at all. Also, as I recall, in Northanger Abbey, Catherine’s parents allow her to correspond with Henry Tilney even before they are officially engaged, and do NOT demand access to their letters the way the Duggars demand to be cc’d on texts. And in that case, Catherine was only 17 and certainly considered under the authority of her parents in regard to being allowed to marry, in England at the time, you had to be 21 to marry without parental permission.

**That’s an interesting point about the correspondence. But Catherine’s parents were pretty relaxed–hence their comfort with sending her off to Bath with older friends.

I also think you’re correct about chaperones. I think they were there to prevent major impropriety and protect young women’s reputations, rather than having any more active role.
**

I think it’s telling that if you actually look at the comments posted in response to the TLC.com article linked by the OP, one of them is from a Muslim who states “courtships” are conducted this way in HIS culture too. Now, I have no idea how strict of a Muslim, but I certainly find that comment to be disturbing.
That also occurred to me that the closest model for the Duggar method is Islam, not Western European Christian culture.

By the way, there’s an old Egyptian movie I saw years ago that’s an Egyptian take on the old US Father of the Bride film. The family is middle class and Westernized, but I noticed that the young couple’s excursions were accompanied by a carful of younger siblings of the young woman.

In traditional Western culture, I think a chaperone would typically be a married woman or a widow.
 
Here’s another Jane Austen example.

Emma, after a party, finds herself alone inside a closed carriage with Mr. Elton, the vicar. Mr. Elton proceeds to make a nuisance of himself.

So, it wasn’t utterly shocking in those days for Emma to share a closed carriage with Mr. Elton (Emma is very bright, has a strong sense of propriety as well as a lot of pride, so she wouldn’t have intentionally done anything that would cause talk), but it was a situation ripe with possibilities.
 
Another problem I see is that I think that one of the really important things that need to happen no later than during engagement is for a couple to develop a sort of “bubble of privacy” with regard to their relationship and their doings. It’s very important that future spouses get out of the habit of sharing every single detail of their lives and every single flicker of disappointment with their beloved with parents. (Assuming that the relationship is a generally healthy one.) A lot of bad marital stuff (that you can read about on CAF every week) comes out of over-sharing with parents and others and not respecting the primacy of the marital bond and the couple’s need for privacy and independence. (Marriage-counseling one’s daughter and future son-in-law is particularly boundary-violating.)

I feel like the Duggar model does not provide well for the need for couples to be on a trajectory to leave and cleave. It’s virginity and chastity at the expense of a lot of other very important human needs, and I personally don’t think that you need to choose.

Of course, I understand that it’s not reasonable to expect that a reality TV show dad would understand the need for privacy.
I agree. I keep thinking back to when I was first married and what a shock it was for me when reality started to hit and suddenly I was LIVING with this person. Even though I knew him pretty well, we had a typical secular dating relationship (although we didn’t live together before marriage) it was still a huge adjustment to finally be living with him. I can’t even imagine how much harder that would have been if we had never had a moment alone to really get to know each other. There are just some conversations that need to happen that WILL NOT happen with a chaperone around. I think it’s very dangerous to go into a marriage with a person that you have not had a chance to get to know on that level.

I mean, have these couples ever even had a chance to have a fight or argument before they got married? have they had a chance to work out a disagreement or communicate when they’re furious with each other? That type of thing is not going to happen in front of daddy as it would once you’re married and alone. And it is so important to figure those things out before you even decide to get married.

Usually relationships begin with a “smitten” or honeymoon period and then progress into deeper levels. I don’t think these relationships have ever progressed past the initial stage before they got married. They didn’t have that opportunity. I think it sets them up for serious problems in their marriage and let’s face it, in this day and age, those girls have to look at the possibility of divorce seriously. THEY may not be the one to leave, but that doesn’t mean that one of their husbands doesn’t.

I do hope I’m wrong. I wouldn’t wish that on anybody (I lived through it myself)
 
The Duggars aren’t a family; they’re a cult. Instead of getting money and a TV show, the parents deserve an investigation from the proper authorities. The level of control they exert over their children is indicative of mental abuse.

When I consider the absurd stuff that has made it to the public, I don’t even want to think about the family practices that have been covered up. The father seems to be a control freak. I believe that people have a fundamental human right to be educated and to become autonomous. Telling the girls that they can’t go to college (basically saying that they can’t learn to think for themselves) is disgusting. These people are in the public eye, and I wish someone would go in and interview these children, though they’ve probably been too brainwashed to really talk. As more information comes to light, I hope that these kids might get some eventual freedom.
 
The Duggars aren’t a family; they’re a cult. Instead of getting money and a TV show, the parents deserve an investigation from the proper authorities. The level of control they exert over their children is indicative of mental abuse.
Do you have this level of condemnation for all reality TV shows?

How about the “little couple” Are they abusive?

tlc.com/tv-shows/little-couple

I tend to agree with you on most reality TV. Sister wives should have had arrests involved.
 
Do you have this level of condemnation for all reality TV shows?

How about the “little couple” Are they abusive?

tlc.com/tv-shows/little-couple

I tend to agree with you on most reality TV. Sister wives should have had arrests involved.
I’m not condemning them for being on reality TV. I’m condemning them for exercising extreme control over the lives of their children. Not allowing the girls to attend college or go on an unsupervised date isn’t Christian, it’s cult-like control. I don’t really watch much TV, but from what I have gathered the only thing that the “Little Couple” have in common with the Duggars is that they’re both on the same network (?)
 
But you aren’t advocating for a couple making that decision-you are saying that parents should impose these strange rules on their adult children. Imagine how terrifying it would be to marry a man that you had not so much as shared a secret with. That’s the situation that you are wanting to put young adults in.

And for what it’s worth, a convent would not take a girl who had never been allowed to go to school, have a job, interact with anyone in a normal way, or experience anything. They realize that it is not the best way to bring in healthy postulants who have properly discerned a vocation.

Would you really want your son to marry one of the Duggar daughters? Would you want a DIL who had absolutely no clue whatsoever about the world, or how to interact with it, or how to make healthy decisions for herself? Is that the kind of person you would want raising your grandchildren? What if your son died and it was just her and the kids? That thought should be enough to scare you away from this idea.

But even if it isn’t, that’s fine. But understand that this is in line with your views, and not the teachings of the Catholic Church.
Excellent point. Excellent post. Catholicism does not teach that daughters should be controlled and forbidden from interacting with the world.
 
I’m not condemning them for being on reality TV. I’m condemning them for exercising extreme control over the lives of their children. Not allowing the girls to attend college or go on an unsupervised date isn’t Christian, it’s cult-like control. I don’t really watch much TV, but from what I have gathered the only thing that the “Little Couple” have in common with the Duggars is that they’re both on the same network (?)
You are condemning a vast majority of the world both current and ancient and labeling them a cult. When the Catholic Church has many of the same “rules” the Duggars have.

I am curious where college is forbidden by he Duggars. 🤷

here is Michelle on the subject.
A few of our kids are taking courses right now, and I think some of them will go for their degrees in whichever areas they decide, and then I think some of them may not really go for the full degree— but they’re getting knowledge and information for skills that they want to gain. All my kids are different, and it will be interesting as time goes on to see which direction each one will take.
Cultlike? I would say the same about each of my kids. So would a parent in Africa.
 
I’ve known way too many Catholic couples living together before marriage and/or getting pregnant before being married. I really appreciate the Duggars giving an example to the country on how to be chaste and date in a way that honors God and each other.

Single Catholics, are you dating in a way that gives witness to Christ in the world? When you see how many abortions happen each year, know the world is desperate for your good example!

tlc.com/tv-shows/19-kids-and-counting/games-and-more/rules-dating-duggar-daughter.htm?mkcpgn=fbtlc1&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=19Kids&Counting
You don’t need the Duggars in order to date in a way that honors God.
What one needs is a thorough understanding and practice of the Cardinal Virtues and an understanding of what Holy Mother Church teaches.

Why the need to look at the Duggars? Look to Holy Mother Church and not to Bill Gothard.
 
The Duggars aren’t a family; they’re a cult. Instead of getting money and a TV show, the parents deserve an investigation from the proper authorities. The level of control they exert over their children is indicative of mental abuse.

When I consider the absurd stuff that has made it to the public, I don’t even want to think about the family practices that have been covered up. The father seems to be a control freak. I believe that people have a fundamental human right to be educated and to become autonomous. Telling the girls that they can’t go to college (basically saying that they can’t learn to think for themselves) is disgusting. These people are in the public eye, and I wish someone would go in and interview these children, though they’ve probably been too brainwashed to really talk. As more information comes to light, I hope that these kids might get some eventual freedom.
I don’t believe that there is any evidence they have done anything to reach the level of illegal or that would warrant CPS investigation. I would not be supportive of an investigation at all.

They’re religious beliefs are extreme, imo, but they have the freedom in this country to be extreme. Yes, I believe their kids are brainwashed. But that’s not against the law. Now if there was any evidence that they broke the law by physically preventing one of their adult children to leave or anything like that, I would feel differently. Just like the FLDS, I was completely behind the gov’t getting involved there because there was evidence that that group was actively holding those women prisoners and preventing them from leaving or contacting the outside world. That is taking it way too far and if the Duggars engaged in practices like that, I would totally support the gov’t getting involved. But I haven’t seen any evidence that it has gone that far.

But from a Catholic perspective, I don’t feel that we can stand behind their practices *at all. *Women are not property and to treat them as such is completely against our faith.
 
You don’t need the Duggars in order to date in a way that honors God.
What one needs is a thorough understanding and practice of the Cardinal Virtues and an understanding of what Holy Mother Church teaches.

Why the need to look at the Duggars? Look to Holy Mother Church and not to Bill Gothard.
I agree. The Church has put out very holy and wise teachings regarding human sexuality and relationships. THAT is what we should hold up as pious examples, not a misguided, NON-CATHOLIC, fundamentalist Protestant heresy. And it IS heresy.
 
I don’t believe that there is any evidence they have done anything to reach the level of illegal or that would warrant CPS investigation. I would not be supportive of an investigation at all.

They’re religious beliefs are extreme, imo, but they have the freedom in this country to be extreme. Yes, I believe their kids are brainwashed. But that’s not against the law. Now if there was any evidence that they broke the law by physically preventing one of their adult children to leave or anything like that, I would feel differently. Just like the FLDS, I was completely behind the gov’t getting involved there because there was evidence that that group was actively holding those women prisoners and preventing them from leaving or contacting the outside world. That is taking it way too far and if the Duggars engaged in practices like that, I would totally support the gov’t getting involved. But I haven’t seen any evidence that it has gone that far.

But from a Catholic perspective, I don’t feel that we can stand behind their practices *at all. *Women are not property and to treat them as such is completely against our faith.
Interesting.

A side note. But trust me, I will get back to the point if I can have a little leeway your honor…

About a month ago my athiest/agnostic mother was visiting us. I have three girls in soccer. She likes to come to the games and watch them. The league we have them in is a church run league. God is incorporated into practices, games and home assignments (memorize a Bible Verse.) The Program is not Catholic but is not contrary to our Catholic beliefs in it’s exposure to Christ for children. The coach is giving a pregame speech to the 9 year old team my eldest daughter is on. He says that we are to honor Jesus with our play. That we are to play and do all as if Jesus was with us at all times. And then he says “what are we to do?” And the Children answer “Honor Jesus”

My mother leans into me and says, “Boy, sure sounds like a lot of brainwashing to to me!” and was concerned. I immediately got defensive. I told her if she thought that was brainwashing then she ought to see our Catholic Homeschool curriculum. We got into a huge blowup and both felt uneasy with the other.

So, I am then relaying the story to my wife and my main point was that my mom accused us of brainwashing our children with our religion and how that set me off. My wife just smiles and says, “:Well you should have just agreed with her” Her point was that we are brainwashing our children as much as anyone does. When we as Catholics tell a 7 year old that the Body and Blood is present in the bread and wine they see, we are “brainwashing” them. When we say that premarital sex is bad and they should not sin, we are brainwashing them. And when we tell them that America is the land of the free and the home of the brave, we are brainwashing them. It is our job as parents.
 
Interesting.

A side note. But trust me, I will get back to the point if I can have a little leeway your honor…

About a month ago my athiest/agnostic mother was visiting us. I have three girls in soccer. She likes to come to the games and watch them. The league we have them in is a church run league. God is incorporated into practices, games and home assignments (memorize a Bible Verse.) The Program is not Catholic but is not contrary to our Catholic beliefs in it’s exposure to Christ for children. The coach is giving a pregame speech to the 9 year old team my eldest daughter is on. He says that we are to honor Jesus with our play. That we are to play and do all as if Jesus was with us at all times. And then he says “what are we to do?” And the Children answer “Honor Jesus”

My mother leans into me and says, “Boy, sure sounds like a lot of brainwashing to to me!” and was concerned. I immediately got defensive. I told her if she thought that was brainwashing then she ought to see our Catholic Homeschool curriculum. We got into a huge blowup and both felt uneasy with the other.

So, I am then relaying the story to my wife and my main point was that my mom accused us of brainwashing our children with our religion and how that set me off. My wife just smiles and says, “:Well you should have just agreed with her” Her point was that we are brainwashing our children as much as anyone does. When we as Catholics tell a 7 year old that the Body and Blood is present in the bread and wine they see, we are “brainwashing” them. When we say that premarital sex is bad and they should not sin, we are brainwashing them. And when we tell them that America is the land of the free and the home of the brave, we are brainwashing them. It is our job as parents.
I agree . There really is no such thing as neutral child rearing. I was raised atheist so you could say that my parents brainwashed me atheist.
 
Do you have this level of condemnation for all reality TV shows?

How about the “little couple” Are they abusive?

tlc.com/tv-shows/little-couple

I tend to agree with you on most reality TV. Sister wives should have had arrests involved.
I can almost guarantee that Will and Zöe will have a first rate education and learn to be independent just like their mother who is a well respected physician and their dad, who owns several businesses. The two young men who married the Duggar girls are now just part of Jim-Bob’s financial clan. From what I can ascertain, the best thing that happened to the oldest son and his family is that they moved far away from rural Arkansas and his parents. Even his poor wife is dressing more appropriately:eek: for 2014.
 
I can almost guarantee that Will and Zöe will have a first rate education and learn to be independent just like their mother who is a well respected physician and their dad, who owns several businesses. The two young men who married the Duggar girls are now just part of Jim-Bob’s financial clan. From what I can ascertain, the best thing that happened to the oldest son and his family is that they moved far away from rural Arkansas and his parents. Even his poor wife is dressing more appropriately:eek: for 2014.
Hmmm well yes that is good but from a Catholic perspective they engaged in a worse form of child abuse when they attempted to thwart the Catholic life teachings of Jen’s faith.
 
Interesting.

A side note. But trust me, I will get back to the point if I can have a little leeway your honor…

About a month ago my athiest/agnostic mother was visiting us. I have three girls in soccer. She likes to come to the games and watch them. The league we have them in is a church run league. God is incorporated into practices, games and home assignments (memorize a Bible Verse.) The Program is not Catholic but is not contrary to our Catholic beliefs in it’s exposure to Christ for children. The coach is giving a pregame speech to the 9 year old team my eldest daughter is on. He says that we are to honor Jesus with our play. That we are to play and do all as if Jesus was with us at all times. And then he says “what are we to do?” And the Children answer “Honor Jesus”

My mother leans into me and says, “Boy, sure sounds like a lot of brainwashing to to me!” and was concerned. I immediately got defensive. I told her if she thought that was brainwashing then she ought to see our Catholic Homeschool curriculum. We got into a huge blowup and both felt uneasy with the other.

So, I am then relaying the story to my wife and my main point was that my mom accused us of brainwashing our children with our religion and how that set me off. My wife just smiles and says, “:Well you should have just agreed with her” Her point was that we are brainwashing our children as much as anyone does. When we as Catholics tell a 7 year old that the Body and Blood is present in the bread and wine they see, we are “brainwashing” them. When we say that premarital sex is bad and they should not sin, we are brainwashing them. And when we tell them that America is the land of the free and the home of the brave, we are brainwashing them. It is our job as parents.
Parents teaching their children their own religious beliefs is not brainwashing. That’s not the issue with the Duggars. The issue is the movement that they belong to that DOES brainwash it’s members just as any cult. I believe Jim Bob and Michelle are brainwashed themselves after being sucked into that movement. Seriously, do some research on Bill Gothard/ATI homeschool etc. etc.

We’re not just talking about typical religious upbringing here. This goes way beyond that and many, many people have been harmed who grew up in that movement.

I never had any issues with the Duggars until I started learning more about the group they heavily associate with. Like I’ve said before, the extremism has been intentionally well hidden on the show up until now. It’s starting to come out and it’s disturbing.
 
Parents teaching their children their own religious beliefs is not brainwashing. That’s not the issue with the Duggars. The issue is the movement that they belong to that DOES brainwash it’s members just as any cult. I believe Jim Bob and Michelle are brainwashed themselves after being sucked into that movement. Seriously, do some research on Bill Gothard/ATI homeschool etc. etc.

We’re not just talking about typical religious upbringing here. This goes way beyond that and many, many people have been harmed who grew up in that movement.

I never had any issues with the Duggars until I started learning more about the group they heavily associate with. Like I’ve said before, the extremism has been intentionally well hidden on the show up until now. It’s starting to come out and it’s disturbing.
Sounds like a far reaching conspiracy involving the highest TV executives. Much like sister wives championed homosexual marriage.
 
I mean, have these couples ever even had a chance to have a fight or argument before they got married? have they had a chance to work out a disagreement or communicate when they’re furious with each other? That type of thing is not going to happen in front of daddy as it would once you’re married and alone. And it is so important to figure those things out before you even decide to get married.
I think that’s a very good point.

That’s one of the reasons why I am personally against newlyweds living with parents. You’re probably going to have at least a couple of big newlywed fights initially, and it’s important to be able to express disagreements without having any third parties chiming in or “helping.”

I find that when visiting in-laws, not being able to speak my mind to my husband in front of the in-laws is one of the primary burdens.

To have absolutely no ability to have a private disagreement about anything before getting married is interpersonally crippling.
 
You are condemning a vast majority of the world both current and ancient and labeling them a cult. When the Catholic Church has many of the same “rules” the Duggars have.

The uniquely Duggar ones are the bad ones.

**About the college, what Michelle says about college sounds very nice and free and easy, but have any of the older children chosen to do a traditional four-year degree? Isn’t it just a little bit suspicious to you that not one of them so far has done a four-year degree, despite the fact that a number of them have gotten married already?

It is pretty clear which path the parents are pushing.**
 
Hoosier Daddy;12476611:
You are condemning a vast majority of the world both current and ancient and labeling them a cult. When the Catholic Church has many of the same “rules” the Duggars have.

The uniquely Duggar ones are the bad ones.
About the college, what Michelle says about college sounds very nice and free and easy, but have any of the older children chosen to do a traditional four-year degree? Isn’t it just a little bit suspicious to you that not one of them so far has done a four-year degree, despite the fact that a number of them have gotten married already?

It is pretty clear which path the parents are pushing.

From what I read about the Gothard followers is they have something called “College Plus” that’s online and well…isn’t really college. Regular college is highly discouraged and believed to lead to all kinds of evil.

I think that when Jim Bob and Michelle refer to college options for their kids, College Plus is what they’re referring to.
 
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