A Book of Mormon tour

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My own daughter “fell for it”. Well, my priest said that she actually “fell” for the handsome missionary–and yep, the timeline sort of shows it. (That’s the only way she could “get” him you know.) Then they forbid talking with anyone who might be able to give facts and limit readings to only “faith promoting” ones.

Oh when it’s said that the Holy Ghost “testifies” to them that the BOM is true, that only means that they’ve fasted enough to get that “feeling”. IMO, it’s all about feelings and appearances–not truth or reality.
 
BartBurk said:
So “why me” you’re a Catholic. Has the Holy Ghost testified to you the Book of Mormon is true?
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I have related my story on this forum already. I was born catholic, attended Mass up to my confirmation. Returned to Mass when I was 16 or 17. Met the mormons, read the book of mormon and felt that witness of the holy ghost when I was 18. I had one year of activity but could never deny that witness.

Returned to Mass not long ago. Still won’t deny that witness from the holy ghost.
 
AMDGtoo said:
My own daughter “fell for it”. Well, my priest said that she actually “fell” for the handsome missionary–and yep, the timeline sort of shows it. (That’s the only way she could “get” him you know.) Then they forbid talking with anyone who might be able to give facts and limit readings to only “faith promoting” ones.

Oh when it’s said that the Holy Ghost “testifies” to them that the BOM is true, that only means that they’ve fasted enough to get that “feeling”. IMO, it’s all about feelings and appearances–not truth or reality.
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I have good news and bad news for you. First the good news: if your daughter became a mormon only for some guy, she will not last long unless she receives a witness from the holy ghost that the lds church is true. Difficult to be a member without that confirmation.

The bad news: if she received that witness, it will be difficult for her to leave the lds faith. She will need to deny that witness or become so disillusioned with the faith, that she will leave. In any case, it is much more difficult.
 
hosemonkey said:
BartBurk,
Whyme is NOT Catholic. He alleges that he attends mass and hangs out with clergy. Maybe.
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I actually hang out with nuns more. I was with them today, visiting the sick. 🙂

I have my rosary in my bag, do you? 😉
 
Returned to Mass not long ago. Still won’t deny that witness from the holy ghost.
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But WhyMe, these are mutually exclusive categories. The Book of Mormon and Catholicism cannot both be true. If the BoM is true, then Catholicism is false. If Catholicism is true, then the BoM (and Mormonism) is false. How do you reconcile this contradiction in your mind without producing an extreme bout of cognitive dissonance?

NS
 
ibkc said:
My friend from high school “fell for it” and that is the phrase she used, with great regret, a decade later when she realized it was all a sham.
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People change. Today, it is not easy to stick to one faith. According to the Pew Center, people change faiths often.

But for something to be a sham, it needs to be proven false. I see no conclusive proof yet.
 
WhyMe, your position seems to me to be saying:

The BoM is true and there was an apostasy, but at the same time Catholicism is true and there has been an unbroken line of apostolic succession and teaching for 2,000 years. To be Mormon, you must believe the former; to be Catholic, you must believe the latter. For instance, I am now a Catholic, which means I am no longer a Mormon. I see no way (logically or philosophically) to reconcile your contradictory stances.

NS
 
why_me said:
People change. Today, it is not easy to stick to one faith. According to the Pew Center, people change faiths often.
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Do you let polls tell you what is write and wrong? Social relativism and morals do not go together. If this was true Slavery and attempted eradication of the Jews were a one time completely moral.

Don’t whats right is rarely easy.
why_me said:
But for something to be a sham, it needs to be proven false. I see no conclusive proof yet.
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BOM is full of historical mistakes and inconstancy’s is that not enough to prove it is not the inspired word of God?
 
NewSeeker said:
But WhyMe, these are mutually exclusive categories. The Book of Mormon and Catholicism cannot both be true. If the BoM is true, then Catholicism is false. If Catholicism is true, then the BoM (and Mormonism) is false. How do you reconcile this contradiction in your mind without producing an extreme bout of cognitive dissonance?

NS
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I try not to get lost in dogmatism. Both mormonism and catholicism are great faiths that teach people to live holy lives. I see it in my mormon daughters and in the devote catholic youth that are around me at times. My philosphy is a simple one: if mormonism works for the individual, fine. If catholicism works for the individual, fine. Each faith can bring a person close to god and I do believe that god does favor both faiths. He sees great and devote people in both religions.

I don’t see god as being dogmatic, judging mormons harshly or catholics harshly because they are mormon or catholic. But he does see the individual and just how they live his word according to their knowledge. And in the end, what else matters??
 
ibkc said:
You don’t, but she did. It was very clear to her once the initial emotionalism faded.
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And that was the problem in my opinion. It was based on emotionalism. The witness from the book of mormon varies from individual to individual, but emotionalism wouldn’t cut it. The witness is more powerful than an emotion. It is strong with its confirmation, at least it was for me at 18. And I am sure that for others it can be different. But any feeling based on emotionalism would not last. The lds church is not an armchair faith. For a member, there is a lot of lay work involved and emotionalism would begin to fade rather quickly.
 
why_me said:
I have related my story on this forum already. I was born catholic, attended Mass up to my confirmation. Returned to Mass when I was 16 or 17. Met the mormons, read the book of mormon and felt that witness of the holy ghost when I was 18. I had one year of activity but could never deny that witness.

Returned to Mass not long ago. Still won’t deny that witness from the holy ghost.
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If you really believe the Book of Mormon is true, then you have no choice but to be a Mormon of one stripe or another. I have to tell you though, that your witness of the Holy Ghost does not impress me. If it were real you would be a tithe paying, Word of Wisdom keeping, temple going Mormon. I suggest you really have not felt the Holy Ghost because it has not motivated a real change in your life.

Of course I don’t believe anyone can have a valid witness from the Holy Ghost the Book of Mormon is what it claims to be. The Book of Mormon doesn’t measure up – that’s why Mormon apologists like the people at the Maxwell Institute (formerly FARMS) have to practically deny the message of the Book of Mormon as they try to defend it. The facts don’t support their assertions about the Book of Mormon.

Be a light to your family and resign from the Mormon Church. Practice your Catholic faith. Pray the Rosary. You’ll be way ahead and might lead your family to the truth.
 
why me:
But for something to be a sham, it needs to be proven false. I see no conclusive proof yet.
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That is absolutely untrue. All that is required for something to be a sham is that there is not enough valid evidence to sustain it.

There is absolutely no valid evidence for the Book of Mormon, and there is in fact much valid evidence that it is not true.
 
why_me said:
I try not to get lost in dogmatism. Both mormonism and catholicism are great faiths that teach people to live holy lives. I see it in my mormon daughters and in the devote catholic youth that are around me at times. My philosphy is a simple one: if mormonism works for the individual, fine. If catholicism works for the individual, fine. Each faith can bring a person close to god and I do believe that god does favor both faiths. He sees great and devote people in both religions.

I don’t see god as being dogmatic, judging mormons harshly or catholics harshly because they are mormon or catholic. But he does see the individual and just how they live his word according to their knowledge. And in the end, what else matters??
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Hi why me,

First I wanted to offer my thanks for you sharing your perspective on this thread in the kind manner that you do.🙂

The " problem " as I see it, is when Morman’s suggest that either faith ( Catholic or Mormon ) are great religions because they both teach people how to live holy lives. THIS GOES TO THE CORE OF WHO IS DOING THE TEACHING. ( I realize from some of your post’s that we obviously disagree on JS and the BoM) But even if we put our evaluation of " truth " or " fabrication " aside for a moment, it still offers a very contradictory teaching for the followers of the above mentioned faiths.

I simply do not think you can have it both ways ( although it does seem to be quite inviting for many reasons ) it comes down to a real " down and dirty " to me and that is EITHER THE BoM AND MR. SMITH IS THE REAL DEAL ( and thus you MUST become a " Mormon ") or THE BoM AND MR. SMITH IS NOT THE REAL DEAL ( and thus you MUST reject ALL of it ).

God bless,
Carl
 
PaulDupre said:
That is absolutely untrue. All that is required for something to be a sham is that there is not enough valid evidence to sustain it.

There is absolutely no valid evidence for the Book of Mormon, and there is in fact much valid evidence that it is not true.
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I cannot understand how a well read person can bet their eternal life on the Book of Mormon. There simply is nothing available to validate it. The Mormons claim Adam and Eve were created in about 4000 B.C. Then a world-wide flood occurred around 2500 B.C. Everyone except Noah’s family was wiped off the earth. Then around 2300 B.C. people’s languages were confused and the Jaredites came to the Americas. Nobody else was here. They lasted until around 600 B.C. when they were destroyed and Lehi’s group arrived. Again there is no evidence in the Book of Mormon that other people were here and the book indicated they came to a place hidden from other nations.

The Maxwell Institute (FARMS) now seems to be acknowledging that people were here in 12,000 B.C. (their criticism of Meldrum’s mtDNA haplotype X theory). They now seem to want to include Asians here even though the Book of Mormon provides absolutely no evidence that any of its characters ran into other people.

The Maxwell Institute accounts for the absence of Lehi’s people by claiming they were overwhelmed by these Asiatics born prior to the creation of Adam and Eve. It just all goes downhill from there. The Mormons can’t account for any Hebrew civilization anywhere in the Americas, but expect me to base my eternal salvation on a story about these missing Hebrews. I’m happy to have faith in the church Christ started as opposed to a restoration spouting fairy tales.
 
ralphinal said:
Beautiful country. Absolutely beautiful.

Does this not prove that JS was aware of these areas more than there being the things described in the BoM?

Also, even if the cities were all wooden and they burned and their ashes were scattered, would there not be other evidence of the cities? How large were these cities? How many people lived along these waterways?
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You are operating on the false premise that the BOM is more than a fairy tale for chikdren at bed time. The cities, the animals that Josehp Smith said existed then, …we still have found no trace., walls, bones or even comments from the Mayans or Aztec records from that time.
As a past Mormon I can assure you that any credability that the BOM has in historical fact is in the head of JS only.

Don in Vegas
 
why_me said:
I have related my story on this forum already. I was born catholic, attended Mass up to my confirmation. Returned to Mass when I was 16 or 17. Met the mormons, read the book of mormon and felt that witness of the holy ghost when I was 18. I had one year of activity but could never deny that witness.

Returned to Mass not long ago. Still won’t deny that witness from the holy ghost.
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I understand. So many arein the same boat. What happens is that the Missionaries (I was a great one) speak softly, and bring about these feelings when they speak of Christ, the BOM, etc… They ask you to read this book and tell me that it is of God. It is a transference, as it is called in psycology. Cars have mechanics and humans have psycologists. A lot of psycology is used diliberately in the little discussions. Even tho it was never called as such that is exactly what I was tained in. I was trained in ways to get the door open.
When we went to a dor we looked for toys in the yard (kids and family approach), tools in the garage (stability and home), pets, (loving relationships) and far far more. These things have nothing to do with Christs, but suckering more people into the rolls of the Mormon Church. When they come to the door you have already been sized up.
You transfered the love of Christ, the special feeling we all have for Christ, the made up story of Christ and little kids in the BOM (so sweet) to the book itself. If an insurance salesman were to try this we’d throw them out. The missionaries and insurance sales reps are selling an idea. …only difference is the insurance man has a product, also unseeen, that you trust in to pay off in the end. The Mormons will not. Look into transference, salesmanship and see how it is used as a tool to move people. You might get a bit upset. You will understand the ral purpose of Fast and Testimony meetings and why people do what they do.

Don in Vegas
 
why_me said:
I have good news and bad news for you. First the good news: if your daughter became a mormon only for some guy, she will not last long unless she receives a witness from the holy ghost that the lds church is true. Difficult to be a member without that confirmation.

The bad news: if she received that witness, it will be difficult for her to leave the lds faith. She will need to deny that witness or become so disillusioned with the faith, that she will leave. In any case, it is much more difficult.
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Both of us know that it is more complicated than that.

In order to marry “handsome missionary that she fell for”, she has to become Mormon, and since marriage in the Mormon temple is really encouraged and no one without a temple recommend may enter one, that means that the convert (even though she or he converted just for the handsome guy or pretty girl must pass a “worthiness interview” given by the “part-time, no training and no salaried” bishop. From conversion to temple endowment (being allowed to enter the temple) takes about one year of 10% tithing, fast offerings, Mormon ward attendance, and various other things that the Mormon bishop asks for. IOW by that time the convert has made quite an investment in the Mormon church–so much so that it’s quite embarrassing to admit to being “snookered”. (In my daughter’s case the Mormon bishop even had her teach little innocent children that Jesus Our Lord and God was just a man and just “a” god so she had a "vested interest in remaining Mormon.)

Then of course, there’s the knowledge that if she/he doesn’t stay Mormon (okay living a lie takes a toll, but there’s anti-depressants for that 😉 ) the convert loses the one she/he “fell” for (as well as all her/his new Mormon family and friends). And of course, once married, the wife is expected to turn out as many children as possible (for the "spirit children to have bodies.) Well, maybe a guy can “walk away”, but how many mothers would leave their beloved children? No, damage is really, really done. And so leaving becomes almost impossible.
 
AMDGtoo said:
Both of us know that it is more complicated than that.

In order to marry “handsome missionary that she fell for”, she has to become Mormon, and since marriage in the Mormon temple is really encouraged and no one without a temple recommend may enter one, that means that the convert (even though she or he converted just for the handsome guy or pretty girl must pass a “worthiness interview” given by the “part-time, no training and no salaried” bishop. From conversion to temple endowment (being allowed to enter the temple) takes about one year of 10% tithing, fast offerings, Mormon ward attendance, and various other things that the Mormon bishop asks for. IOW by that time the convert has made quite an investment in the Mormon church–so much so that it’s quite embarrassing to admit to being “snookered”. (In my daughter’s case the Mormon bishop even had her teach little innocent children that Jesus Our Lord and God was just a man and just “a” god so she had a "vested interest in remaining Mormon.)

Then of course, there’s the knowledge that if she/he doesn’t stay Mormon (okay living a lie takes a toll, but there’s anti-depressants for that 😉 ) the convert loses the one she/he “fell” for (as well as all her/his new Mormon family and friends). And of course, once married, the wife is expected to turn out as many children as possible (for the "spirit children to have bodies.) Well, maybe a guy can “walk away”, but how many mothers would leave their beloved children? No, damage is really, really done. And so leaving becomes almost impossible.
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You have a deep understanding of the LDS faith. To leave, one must develope new relationships outside of the LDS Church, or rekindle the old ones, stop attending everything. If she wants to have her records removed she just has to write the local Bishop, ask to have her records removed. She is not excommunicated for improper behavior, she is just made whole. …the way she was before she was manipulated / baptised. People do not realize that the LDS Church has been sued and lost over this membership issue. You, in the USA, have a Constitutional Right to Freedom of Religion, and Salt Lake must respect that, or get sued by more people. You are not a bad person because you lost interest or are progressing upward to the Catholic faith anymore than you are if you stop drinking bottled water and start drinking it at home from the faucet. You should expect the company that sells bottles water to protect their interest and try to get you to use their bottled water again. It really is your life and you should be making your decisions.
I can share with you that the LDS Church is NOT true. JS was not a prophet of God. Hearing others share that they “know” (who does) is nothing more than running it through your mind the same way Jim Jones brought people together for loyalty tests. It’s more of the psycology again.

Anyone no longer interested in being LDS, or people that are no longer attending can write: LDS Church, Membership and Statistical Records, Salt Lake City, UT. 84150 and ask for their records to be removed and you must ask for no more contact. Give them your full name as listed on the records and any other info that will help them assist you. All they do is hit the delete key. There is no God, Angels ****. It’s just deleting a computer file the same way any other group would, and the same way you and I delete files every day. You’ll love the freedom. If I can assist just drop me an email.
Have a great day!
Don
 
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