A Case for Once Saved Always Saved

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All sin is abhorrent to God. But my questions was to your placing your “venial sin” and “spiritual death” into 1 John 5:16. Again here is the verse:

“If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death.”

Why does John instruct us to pray and ask so the sinner may have spirtual life when his sin(s) does not lead to spiritual death?
1 John 5:11-17 (RSV)
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
12 He who has the Son has life; he who has not the Son of God has not life.
13 I write this to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
14 And this is the confidence which we have in him, that if we ask anything according to his will he hears us.
15 And if we know that he hears us in whatever we ask, we know that we have obtained the requests made of him.

16 If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that.
17 All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin which is not mortal.

John is speaking of “answered” prayer “expectations” regarding two types of sinners. He is reassuring them that their prayers will be answered if the person is not sinning mortal sins (if he sins venial sins only, then he will still inherit eternal life when he dies). It is good to pray for him because praying for him will help him to not commit mortal sins. If he does not commit mortal sins, then he will be given eternal life so “God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal.” Philippians 4:6-7, 1 Timothy 2:1

However, John also tells them that if the person is sinning mortal sins (perhaps he is speaking particularly of apostasy and/or final impenitence), then their prayers might not be answered because he probably will not repent before death and if so, then he will not inherit eternal life. Their prayers will have been prayed in vain. 1 Thessalonians 3:5, Galatians 4:11

God forces no person to be saved against his free will and He forces no one to be lost against his free will. An individual’s eternal abode actually depends on what free will choices the person makes up until the instant of his death.

John’s Semitic manner of speaking is difficult for English speaking persons to understand.
 
Yes it is critical to understand to whom it was written. And if you fail to understand that Paul wrote to believing Jews and also those that were toddling on the fence, you will misinterpet the warning passages.
I listed several Scripture quotations from several epistles and these epistles were written to both Jews and Gentiles. They all boil down to the same exact message:

If you sin mortal sin after baptism (if you sin mortal sin after “coming to the knowledge of the truth”), then you will not inherit eternal life.

Ephesians 5:3-7
But fornication and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as is fitting for saints; 4 neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. 5 For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. 7 Therefore do not be partakers with them.

Galatians 5:19-21
Now the works of the flesh are plain: fornication, impurity, licentiousness,
20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, anger, selfishness, dissension, party spirit,
21 envy, drunkenness, carousing, and the like. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Colossians 3:5-7
Therefore put to death your members which are on the earth: fornication, uncleanness, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. 6 Because of these things the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience, 7 in which you yourselves once walked when you lived in them.

When we sin mortal sins, then we become sons of disobedience. If we die in the state of mortal sin, then we will not inherit eternal life.

2 Thessalonians 1:8
in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Christ saves only those who obey Him.

Hebrews 5:9
And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him,

If we do not obey Him, then we do not believe in Him.

Hebrews 3:18-19
And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey? 19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

“Believe” means to “obey.” “Unbelief” means to “disobey.”

1 John 2:4
He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

What happens to all liars if they do not repent before death?

Revelation 21:8
But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
 
I do not agree with all the CC teaches. Do you want me to lie and say I do? I do not think the CC is the only right Church. I believe we are all Christians if we follow Jesus.
Why do you attend a Catholic Church? You do not believe what the Catholic Church teaches, so you are not a true Catholic. Wouldn’t it be more honest to attend a different church? Perhaps you can find one that shares and teaches your own beliefs.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches, “The word ‘catholic’ means ‘universal,’ in the sense of ‘according to the totality’ or ‘in keeping with the whole’” (No. 830). The text uses Vatican documents to explain that this means “correct and complete confession of faith, full sacramental life, and ordained ministry in apostolic succession.” An individual, a worshiping congregation, or an educational program that flouts or knowingly denies these characteristics — or fails to embrace all of them — cannot be called “Catholic.”
 
Well if any of that means join the Catholic Church, than it isn’t likely.

But its okay. He knows my name.
Jesus will not “know” anyone on Judgment Day who was in the state of mortal sin when he died.

Luke 13:24-28
He said to them, 24"Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to. 25Once the owner of the house gets up and closes the door, you will stand outside knocking and pleading, ‘Sir, open the door for us.’
"But he will answer, ‘I don’t know you or where you come from.’

26"Then you will say, ‘We ate and drank with you, and you taught in our streets.’

27"But he will reply, 'I don’t know you or where you come from. Away from me, all you evildoers!’

28"There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out.

Matthew 7:20-24
21"Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’ 24"Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock.

He remembers none of the good works done by righteous persons who later commit mortal sins and do not repent before death.

Ezekiel 33:12-15
Therefore, son of man, say to your countrymen, ‘The righteousness of the righteous man will not save him when he disobeys, and the wickedness of the wicked man will not cause him to fall when he turns from it. The righteous man, if he sins, will not be allowed to live because of his former righteousness.’ 13 If I tell the righteous man that he will surely live, but then he trusts in his righteousness and does evil, none of the righteous things he has done will be remembered; he will die for the evil he has done. 14 And if I say to the wicked man, ‘You will surely die,’ but he then turns away from his sin and does what is just and right- 15 if he gives back what he took in pledge for a loan, returns what he has stolen, follows the decrees that give life, and does no evil, he will surely live; he will not die.
 
So its just speculation and the way you interperate what the Bible is saying. I never said eternal life is a guarantee. I said it was not a quarantee and that once you are saved God will never leave you hence once saved always saved.
**If you were baptized (or came to the Lord because of a heart change/accepted Christ as Lord & Savior), but you do not inherit eternal life when you die because of mortal sin on your soul at the time of your death, then you are not “always saved.”

**You are instead “always lost” for eternity and you will spend eternity in the fire of hell. If you are in hell, then you are not “always saved.” God is with no person who is in hell. You enter hell without Him.
 
Err… I didn’t say those things. You did. If you are not intending the tone and language that is coming across, you should think about reading them aloud or something. When you say “that is an ignorant statement,” 99% of the people reading that are going to interpret it to mean, “you are ignorant.” So, if you don’t intend these types of thoughts and you truly are trying to show some charity, then take an extra moment and see if it is intended in a Christ-like manner.

To show how perceptive I am, I am also guessing this and any future comments are only intended to goad me into commenting to you yet again. If you change your tone, I’ll be happy to resume, but for now I see no value in badgering, mocking, belittling, berating for you to feel you have “taken down a debate coach.” Do as you like, but with charity.

Good day.
Just asking that you be honest with yourself about WHY you don’t want to have further dialogue. It’s because you have been out-debated, like I said. You came to the table with little substance and were defeated with the Scriptures.

Also - telling somebody they made an ignorant statement is not the same as calling them an ignoramus.

My HOPE is that her statement was made out of ignorance and NOT spiritual pride. A
** I have already shown - I am told by the Sriptures to admonish the unruly and disobedient, which I have done. **
This is a chief spiritual work of mercy.👍
 
It’s very simple, really - when He was speaking to the Apostles alone, then the instruction is for the Apostles and their successors alone. When He is speaking to “the crowds” then it is an instruction for all of us to follow. 🙂
Today’s reading gives another example of Jesus teaching some things to all and privately explaining things to the Apostles.

Gospel
Mk 4:26-34
Jesus said to the crowds:
**“This is how it is with the Kingdom of God;
it is as if a man were to scatter seed on the land
and would sleep and rise night and day

and the seed would sprout and grow,
he knows not how.** Reference to the Institution of the Church
Of its own accord the land yields fruit,
first the blade, then the ear, then the full grain in the ear.
And when the grain is ripe, he wields the sickle at once,
for the harvest has come.”

He said,
“To what shall we compare the Kingdom of God,
or what parable can we use for it?
It is like a mustard seed that, when it is sown in the ground,
is the smallest of all the seeds on the earth.
But once it is sown, it springs up and becomes the largest of plants
and puts forth large branches,
so that the birds of the sky can dwell in its shade.” Reference to the Institution of the Church
**With many such parables
he spoke the word to them as they were able to understand it.
Without parables he did not speak to them,
but to his own disciples he explained everything in private. **

How do we know what Jesus told the Apostles in this story? How do we know what the many things Jesus told his disciples in John 21:19
There are also many other things that Jesus did, but if these were to be described individually, I do not think the whole world would contain the books that would be written.
What Jesus said was not written down at this point. We can only know it by the Teachings of the Apostles - ORAL TRADITION - some of which is found in the Epistles.

Remember, Paul was not a disciple of Christ. My understanding is he never met Jesus. How did Paul come to know Jesus’ Teachings? The Gospels were not written yet.
 
If you were baptized (or came to the Lord because of a heart change/accepted Christ as Lord & Savior), but you do not inherit eternal life when you die because of mortal sin on your soul at the time of your death, then you are not "always saved."

It’s semantics. Substitute Jesus death and Resurrection for “always saved.” For Rev Kevin, “always saved” doesn’t mean going to Heaven.
 
Just asking that you be honest with yourself about WHY you don’t want to have further dialogue. It’s because you have been out-debated, like I said. You came to the table with little substance and were defeated with the Scriptures.

Also - telling somebody they made an ignorant statement is not the same as calling them an ignoramus.

My HOPE is that her statement was made out of ignorance and NOT spiritual pride. A** I have already** shown - I am told by the Sriptures to admonish the unruly and disobedient, which I have done.
This is a chief spiritual work of mercy.👍
I am not the one with spiritual pride! I also will not argue with you either. It isn’t worth it. You have showed me nothing but rudeness, and uncharity. So go find someone else you can goad.God Bless you in your journey
 
I am not the one with spiritual pride! I also will not argue with you either. It isn’t worth it. You have showed me nothing but rudeness, and uncharity. So go find someone else you can goad.God Bless you in your journey
What do you think of my post 445?
 
I am not the one with spiritual pride! I also will not argue with you either. It isn’t worth it. You have showed me nothing but rudeness, and uncharity. So go find someone else you can goad.God Bless you in your journey
And here we have it ladies and gentlemen – tweetymom playing the victim (and playing Catholic) once again. 🙂

tweety: I believe you to be a sweet lady with the goal of having honest online fellowship with like minded believers. However, this is not a fellowship forum and if you take offense everytime someone disagrees with you (and I would say the you yourself goad Catholics daily on this site) then you will be continually angry.

I don’t believe I have ever seen you post anything of substance here, thus you never meaningfully contribute to the discussions. Clearly, as long as you follow the rules, it is your right to behave this way if you choose. However, to me at least, it seems odd for someone to hang out in a place where intellectual discussions are taking place, with the goal of constantly slathering us with personal opinions and non-sequiturs.:confused:

I have to hand it to you though, tweety, you are nothing if not consistent.👍
 
And here we have it ladies and gentlemen – tweetymom playing the victim (and playing Catholic) once again. 🙂

tweety: I believe you to be a sweet lady with the goal of having honest online fellowship with like minded believers. However, this is not a fellowship forum and if you take offense everytime someone disagrees with you (and I would say the you yourself goad Catholics daily on this site) then you will be continually angry.

I don’t believe I have ever seen you post anything of substance here, thus you never meaningfully contribute to the discussions. Clearly, as long as you follow the rules, it is your right to behave this way if you choose. However, to me at least, it seems odd for someone to hang out in a place where intellectual discussions are taking place, with the goal of constantly slathering us with personal opinions and non-sequiturs.:confused:

I have to hand it to you though, tweety, you are nothing if not consistent.👍
Thank you so much for you kind words and the show of charity.
 
And here we have it ladies and gentlemen – tweetymom playing the victim (and playing Catholic) once again. 🙂

tweety: I believe you to be a sweet lady with the goal of having honest online fellowship with like minded believers. However, this is not a fellowship forum and if you take offense everytime someone disagrees with you (and I would say the you yourself goad Catholics daily on this site) then you will be continually angry.

I don’t believe I have ever seen you post anything of substance here, thus you never meaningfully contribute to the discussions. Clearly, as long as you follow the rules, it is your right to behave this way if you choose. However, to me at least, it seems odd for someone to hang out in a place where intellectual discussions are taking place, with the goal of constantly slathering us with personal opinions and non-sequiturs.:confused:

I have to hand it to you though, tweety, you are nothing if not consistent.👍
While I sympathize with your post, we should stick to the OP or the thread will be closed. The mods will say talk about the topic and not each other. I am guilty of this myself. I guess I feel goaded from time to time as well. :o
 
It’s semantics. Substitute Jesus death and Resurrection for “always saved.” For Rev Kevin, “always saved” doesn’t mean going to Heaven.
" Always saved" to most people means that they can never lose their salvation even if they commit adultery or murder, etc. after they become saved in the first place. I was clarifying this fact.

Rev Kevin’s posts are confusing to some people because he “borrows” established “phraseology” and then uses it to mean something else. 🙂
 
" Always saved" to most people means that they can never lose their salvation even if they commit adultery or murder, etc. after they become saved in the first place. I was clarifying this fact.

Rev Kevin’s posts are confusing to some people because he “borrows” established “phraseology” and then uses it to mean something else. 🙂
I agree. To me, “saved” means going to Heaven at death. I don’t know where in the Bible it says we should ask people, “Are you saved?” Instead of going through the whole, “Christ’s one eternal sacrifice on the cross, by his mercy and grace alone, and Resurrection, Baptism, YES” We don’t dare to presume to ask people such questions in polite company. Generally speaking, unless you are on the subject of religion, I find it a personal and presumptuous request. Kind of like the questioner knows he’s saved and thinks you’re not.
 
In the context of Once Saved Always Saved, we are all saved by Christ’s one perfect sacrifice etc.

Catholics believe Jesus died for EVERYBODY, even unbelievers such as babies. So in a sense, all are “Once Saved” why add the “Always Saved?”
 
Today’s reading gives another example of Jesus teaching some things to all and privately explaining things to the Apostles…

…What Jesus said was not written down at this point. We can only know it by the Teachings of the Apostles - ORAL TRADITION - some of which is found in the Epistles.

Remember, Paul was not a disciple of Christ. My understanding is he never met Jesus. How did Paul come to know Jesus’ Teachings? The Gospels were not written yet.
Good post. 🙂 I will try to explain, using Scripture, how Paul came to be an Apostle.

Jesus builds His Church upon Peter first Matthew 16:18-19 and also the other Apostles and Prophets:

Ephesians 2:19-20
Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone,

About Apostles:

Luke 6:13
And when it was day, He called His disciples to Himself; and from them He chose twelve whom He also named apostles:

Jesus personally instructs these twelve apostles:

Acts 1:1-3
The former account I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach, 2 until the day in which He was taken up, after He through the Holy Spirit had given commandments to the apostles whom He had chosen, 3 to whom He also presented Himself alive after His suffering by many infallible proofs, being seen by them during forty days and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God.

An Apostle must meet certain criteria. Peter, as chief Apostle (only he holds the keys to the kingdom of heaven Matthew 16:18-19) instructs the Church leadership to choose another apostle to take the place of Judas in order to fulfill prophecy:

Acts 1:15-26
And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples (altogether the number of names was about a hundred and twenty), and said, 16 “Men and brethren, this Scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit spoke before by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who became a guide to those who arrested Jesus; 17 for he was numbered with us and obtained a part in this ministry.”


20 “For it is written in the Book of Psalms:
‘ Let his dwelling place be desolate,
And let no one live in it’;
and, **‘ Let another take his office.’

21 “Therefore, of these men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, 22 beginning from the baptism of John to that day when He was taken up from us, one of these must become a witness with us of His resurrection**.”
23 And they proposed two: Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias. 24 And they prayed and said, “You, O Lord, who know the hearts of all, show which of these two You have chosen 25 to take part in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.” 26 And they cast their lots, and the lot fell on Matthias. And he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

Paul was given Divine revelation directly from Jesus Christ so that he could be the Apostle to the Gentiles:

Galatians 1:11-18
But I make known to you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. 12 For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but it came through the revelation of Jesus Christ.
13 For you have heard of my former conduct in Judaism, how I persecuted the church of God beyond measure and tried to destroy it. 14 And I advanced in Judaism beyond many of my contemporaries in my own nation, being more exceedingly zealous for the traditions of my fathers.
15 **But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother’s womb and called me through His grace, 16 to reveal His Son in me, that I might preach Him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately confer with flesh and blood, **17 nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me; but I went to Arabia, and returned again to Damascus. 18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and remained with him fifteen days.

Paul was personally given a “vision” of Paradise since he never knew Jesus in person while Jesus was on earth:

2 Corinthians 12:1-5
It is doubtless not profitable for me to boast. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord: 2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or whether out of the body I do not know, God knows—such a one was caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I know such a man—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows— 4 how he was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. 5 Of such a one I will boast; yet of myself I will not boast, except in my infirmities.

Peter’s commission is mainly to convert the Jews and Paul’s commission is mainly to convert the Gentiles:

Galatians 2:7-8
But on the contrary, when they saw that the gospel for the uncircumcised had been committed to me, as the gospel for the circumcised was to Peter 8 (for He who worked effectively in Peter for the apostleship to the circumcised also worked effectively in me toward the Gentiles),

to be continued…
 
Continued:

Examples of the Holy Spirit revealing truth to the Apostles (leaders of the Church):

Ephesians 3:4-6
by which, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ), 5 which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as** it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles** and prophets: 6 that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel,

2 Peter 3:1-3
Beloved, I now write to you this second epistle (in both of which I stir up your pure minds by way of reminder), 2 that you may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us, the apostles of the Lord and Savior, 3 knowing this first: that scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts,

Many persons will claim to be Apostles, but they are liars:

Revelation 2:2
I know your works, your labor, your patience, and that you cannot bear those who are evil. And you have tested those who say they are apostles and are not, and have found them liars;

We, however, become disciples of Christ when we are baptized:

Matthew 28:19
Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
 
Continued:{snip}
Many persons will claim to be Apostles, but they are liars:

Revelation 2:2
I know your works, your labor, your patience, and that you cannot bear those who are evil. And you have tested those who say they are apostles and are not, and have found them liars;

We, however, become disciples of Christ when we are baptized:

Matthew 28:19
Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
That is an awesome summary! Do you mind if I paste it into my notebook?
 
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