A Case for Once Saved Always Saved

[rev_kevin]

After I die, when I am judged to be perfect and I am allowed to go to Heaven.

Thats salvation now what is being saved?

 

[tqualey]

Hi,IAGladfelter,

Thank you for such a thoughtful post.

In keeping with the thread, I do have a question…

Once Saved Always Saved is simply the Baptist’s manner of presenting John Calvin’s Predestination. Those predestined to eternal live have no choise but to accept Jesus Christ as their personal savior. Those predestined to perdition may also go through the motions of such a choise and believe they are saved, but they are not, never have been, and no matter how often they go through the “decision theology” process of “being saved,” never will be.

The only way anyone will know this - is at the General Judgment. Prior to this no one knows a thing as to who is predestined for heaven or hell. I mention this mainly because it is totally unknowable - it resides only in the Mind of God. So, two men get up at an altar call and profess Christ before the Congregation. I submit that no one knows what is in the hearts of these people - except God. Both lead exteriorly good lives - one is a true follower of Christ, while the other is a hypocrit that would make any Pharisee of Christ’s time green with envy! No one knows how bad man #2 really is - except God! So, what possible difference can or does it make to anyone? Especailly if developing such a doctrine negates something we all hold dear: free will?

God bless

Irl

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Put into action God’s saving work in your lives. in light of the preceding exhortation to unity, means that the entire church was to work together to rid themselves of divisions and discord. The Phillippian Christians needed to be especially careful to obey Christ, now that Paul wasn’t there to continually remind them about what was right.

Dear friends, You were always so careful to follow my instructions when I was with you. And now that I am away you must be even more careful to put into action God’s saving work in your lives. Obeying God with deep reverence and fear.

rev. kevin, this seems to contradict other things you’ve discussed on these forums. The entire Church was a collection of Churches in many locations. This means there had to be a working together to rid themselves of divisions and discord…otherwise they had different truths to follow.

 

[brkn1]

Only the perfect go to Heaven, yes. The Sacraments are the means by which we receive the grace to become perfect.

All of our perfection will come only from our being saved “in Christ”.
To assume that we can achieve any of that perfection ourselves takes away from what Christ did to redeem us. You make it a partial redemption if we must also “overcome our sinful nature”, even if that overcoming is “helped” by grace, in order to get into Heaven.
Christ paid it all and it is only by God’s gift of grace through our faith in what He did to save us that actually saves us. “Graced” works are only a result of that true saving faith in Christ.
Sacraments are not described in the Bible as a means of receiving grace. Grace would not be grace, if it required some means outside of it being obtained as a direct and unmerited gift from God.

 

[rev_kevin]

rev. kevin, this seems to contradict other things you’ve discussed on these forums. The entire Church was a collection of Churches in many locations. This means there had to be a working together to rid themselves of divisions and discord…otherwise they had different truths to follow.

I am pointing out what this verse means.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

I am pointing out what this verse means.

Yes, I understand. But, in your post, it speaks against the differences of the Church as we see through the many denominations today.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Brkn1,

This is an interesting approach… but, I think it has a lot of problems! Let me point a few of them out…

All of our perfection will come only from our being saved “in Christ”.
Not a problem there - Right On! Brkn1 ,

To assume that we can achieve any of that perfection ourselves takes away from what Christ did to redeem us. If by this, you mean that we can not save ourselves through our own merits - I think you are 100% accurate there, too, Brkn1

You make it a partial redemption if we must also “overcome our sinful nature”, even if that overcoming is “helped” by grace, in order to get into Heaven. Oooops - first problem: St. Paul is quite well aware of human nature and how it wars against the spirit…and repeats this theme over and over again.

Rom 8:13 - we are told to put away the deeds of the flesh…(sinful human nature)
Rom 13:12 - remove dark deeds like dirty clothes …(looks like more human nature)
Col 3:9 - put off the old man …(the results of Adam’s sin)
Gal 5:19 - now the works of the flesh … (the sinful lusts of our fallen human natures)
Acts 17:11 - the full armor of God … (because we are such easy targets because of our natures)

Now, I am not entirely sure what it is you mean by a ‘partial’ redemption. We are either redeemed or we aren’t. God expects us to cooperate with His Grace - and we do this by exercising our free will. The same free will that you have used to read posts and then write and post responses - or, choose not to respond. This is free will in action - and, in such a way that everyone on the list can see! We are TOTALLY redeemed by the Blood of the Lamb - but, you know what … Chirst had a stunning story to tell the group that thought all they had to say was, “Lord! Lord!” - and you can read it for yourself in Matt 7:21, Luke 6:46 - and there is a particular judgment awaiting these individuals which you will find in Matthew’s gospel in the 25th Chapter. There are really several interesting items there. The story of the 10 virgins - with five of them being foolish is worth another read. You will recall, the Bridegroom did not say, “Aw, they were pretty good girls after all. Let them in!” Nope. That is not the way the story went. The 25th Chapter is pretty clear that you have to DO the will of God - not just give him lip service and claim to be guaranteed heaven because of an altar call.

Christ paid it all and it is only by God’s gift of grace through our faith in what He did to save us that actually saves us. Again, we can not save ourselves through our own merits - only the merits of Christ will wash us in the Blood of the Lamb.

“Graced” works are only a result of that true saving faith in Christ. I am really not familiar with this term, so, if you would please explain it, I would appreciate your efforts.

Sacraments are not described in the Bible as a means of receiving grace. Grace would not be grace, if it required some means outside of it being obtained as a direct and unmerited gift from God.
Oh, Brkn1, let me help you on this - and here are three examples

Christ told Nicodemus (and us) that unless we are born again of WATER AND THE SPIRIT we will not enter into the Kingdom of Heaven … this is a source of tremendous Grace because we become God’s Children - and we call that the Sacrament of Baptism

Christ told the crowd that had been fed the loaves and fishes the previous day that unless they eat the Flesh and drink the Blood of Christ, they will have no life in them! Christ gave us this wonderful source of His Love - a tremendous Grace - at the last supper - and we call this the Sacrament of Holy Communion.

Christ rose from the dead and visited with the Apostles, breathed on them, told them to receive the Holy Spirit and then delegated the Power of God to these men (and to their successors) to forgive sin - or, not forgive sin, as they choose - and we call this the Sacrament of Penance.

Each one of these Biblically based Sacraments have an external sign that allows a special Grace from God to received by all who receive it in a worthy maner.

God bless

 

[fbl9]

snip>
Sacraments are not described in the Bible as a means of receiving grace. Grace would not be grace, if it required some means outside of it being obtained as a direct and unmerited gift from God.

How does one merit the sacrement of baptsim?
How does one merit the sacrement of reconcillation?
How does one merit the sacrement of Holy matrimony?
How does one merit the sacrement of Holy Orders?
How does one merit the sacrement of Extreme Unitiifacation(sic)
How does one merit the sacrement of Confirmation?
How does one merit the sacrement of the Eucahrist?

Simple we don’t but these are all given to us.

 

[rev_kevin]

Yes, I understand. But, in your post, it speaks against the differences of the Church as we see through the many denominations today.

LIke it says in V14 “In everything you do, stay away from complaining and arguing, so that no one can speak a word of blame against you.” Arguing and complaining causes division and discord or a lack of agreement among the church. Paul knew that if all that people know about a church is that its members constantly argue, complain, and gossip, they get a false impression of Christ and the Good News. If your church is always complaining and arguing, it lacks the unifying power of Christ. It don’t mean dividing into other denominations.

 

[IAGladfelter]

Hi,IAGladfelter,

Thank you for such a thoughtful post.

In keeping with the thread, I do have a question…

I agree with your statement, Tom. (I was only trying to explain the Baptist’s position, not in any to advocate for it. Instead, I stand with what is taught by the Catholic Magisterium.

The answer to your question in post #500 on this thread is that free will is a dogma of the Church, so the Calvinists and the Baptists (along with others who believe in OSAS / Double Predestination as framed by John Calvin and others in his “school,” as well as others who accept their line of reasoning) are heretics.

Blessings,
Irl

 

[adrift]

Why not since that is what Paul says:

So then, my beloved, obedient as you have always been, not only when I am present but all the more now when I am absent, work out your salvation with fear and trembling.

 

[Rocket_Man]

So then you weave in and out between from being “Sons of God” to being “Sons of Disobedience”?

No, “Sons of Disobedience” is a term expressly reserved for the unregenerated followers of Satan and his domain.

"And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: "

 

[elvisman]

Angry with you? No sir I feel sorry for you.

Like I said before - just be honest with yourself.
As St. Paul said in Titus 3:10:
"Warn a divisive person once, and then warn him (or her) a second time. After that, have nothing to do with him (ummmm, or her)."

---

Call me crazy - but I’m full of hope . . .**

 

[mike52ad]

And what do the sheep and the goats represent? Some say the representation is the flocks which he has made a covenant. If we are to be called a sheep what must we do? Does simply feeding the sick do it? Does visiting people in prison? These are things required in our contract.

Lets say XYZ offers to pay me for 100 widgets if I show up tomorrow. Then I say, “nah!”

Then tomorrow rolls around and I decide to show up at XYZ Corp with 100 widgets tomorrow and I say, “here are your widgets.” They will say, Who are you? Do we have an agreement?

Performance of a contract does not make a contract. If you reject God’s offer and and then do a lot of good works in his name, you have still rejected his offer.

==========================================================

CONTRACT?? Where do you get contract?

 

[tweetymom]

Like I said before - just be honest with yourself.
As St. Paul said in Titus 3:10:
"Warn a divisive person once, and then warn him (or her) a second time. After that, have nothing to do with him (ummmm, or her)."

---

Call me crazy - but I’m full of hope** . . .

I am honest with myself and others too.

Isaiah 5:21Woe to you that rue wise in your own eyes, and prudent in your own conceits

 

[Bill_Pick]

Legal Requirements for a Contract
1 A meeting of the minds between the parties demonstrating they both understand and agree to the essentials of the deal
2 Consideration (something of value exchanged by each of the parties, such as cash, goods or a promise to do something)
3 An agreement to enter into the contract (typically evidenced by both parties signing a written contract, although oral contracts can be valid too in some situations)
4 The legal competence of each party, meaning the parties are not minors and are of sound mind.

I don’t believe 1 or 2 or 3 or possible 4 have been met, so no it is not a contract.

1. our understanding of God is incompetent
2. what, of value, do we give God in exchange for salvation
3. without 1, we cannot meet requirement 3
4. I don’t think we have any legal competence to stand before God

A+

 

[SHW]

Let’s keep going and throw verse 18 in the mix:

18 We know that any one born of God does not sin, but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him.

Can anyone in the preexisting state “born of God” commit (mortal) sin?

Does James 5:4 help you understand 1 John 5:11-17 ?

4 Is any among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord; 15 and the prayer of faith will save the sick man, and the Lord will raise him up; and if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven.

The man who loves his wife does not commit adultery (sin) against her.

The “born again” sanctified man who loves God does not sin against Him.

Therefore, if he does not sin against God (if he keeps his sanctification intact through obedience to God), then he is indeed kept in the grace of God and the evil one does not touch him.

1 Peter 5:8
Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour.

James 4:7
Therefore submit to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you.

Unless the sick man chooses to repent as a result of the prayers of the faithful, his sins will not be forgiven. There is no forgiveness of sins without repentance first. If he is unconscious, then by the prayers of the faithful, he may be made well enough (conscious) in order for him to be able to choose to repent. Free will choice of the sick man ultimately determines the outcome. God forces no person to be forgiven/saved against his free will.

 

[SHW]

This was spoken to those in the crowd who thought they were “sons of Abraham” but would not enter in because they had no relationship with the owner of the house. It would be similar to many who were baptized as an infant, confirmed in the church, participate in the Eucharist, etc. but were never circumcised inwardly.

This is a warning to be aware of false prophets, verse 15: “Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.” False prophets; “prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles”.

Judas was a follower of Jesus until he fell away (fell from grace) when he betrayed Jesus.

John 6:70
Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?”

John 13:18
I do not speak concerning all of you. I know whom I have chosen; but that the Scripture may be fulfilled, ‘He who eats bread with Me has lifted up his heel against Me.’

Paul tells the Galatians that some of them have fallen from grace (lost sanctifying grace).

Galatians 5:4
You have become estranged (severed) from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

You have to have sanctifying grace in the first place in order to lose it later (fall from grace).

1 Timothy 5:8
But if anyone (believer) does not provide for his own, and especially for those of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.

All of the epistles were written to believers.

Luke 8:13
But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.

2 Peter 3:17
You therefore, beloved (brethren), since you know this beforehand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked;

There is no such thing as OSAS. We must endure to the end of our lives in obedience to Jesus’ gospel (His commands). We must obey His gospel until we die.

2 Thessalonians 1:8
in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 14:37
If anyone thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things which I write to you are the commandments of the Lord.

 

[distracted]

i don’t have time to read all posts…

but OSAS is the most unbiblical teaching i have ever heard of. Read the OT… Every other sentence is about the wrath of God against sinners…

read the new T… the wrath of God does NOT go away. God never changes…

if you disobey the laws of God, you pay the penalty, just like whne you break the law of man… If you run through a stop sign, well, sure, you could get away with it … but if you keep doing it you will get caught… and this is not a good analogy because with sin

YOU ALWAYS GET CAUGHT!!!

If you get away with things in this life, you will get caught in the next life and then it will be 100 times worse… whether we are talking of Purg or Hell… Purgatory is just HEll that comes to an end eventually, once a p erson is holy…

 

[SHW]

You are right! Continuing to live sin is absolutely contrary to Christ’s work on the cross, the ministry of the Holy Spirit, and the seed deposited in the regenerated believer. No one here has argued that there aren’t consequences for sin. I just don’t share your thoughts of Christians weaving back and forth from being “Sons of God” to being “Sons of Disobedience” by our sin.

It’s fairly clear that the “Sons of Disobedience” are unbelievers who are under the continue sway of the wicked one. Which I was once, but not any longer.

Ephesians 2:10
10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

This Scripture is a command, not a suggestion.

“Sons of disobedience” are any persons who disobey God’s commandments:

Ephesians 5:5-7
For this you (brethren) know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. 7 Therefore do not be partakers with them.

Paul is telling them that if they revert back to their sinful past, then they will partake of the punishments given to all sons of disobedience because “they” will also be “sons of disobedience” if they sin against God’s commandments again.

Colossians 3:5-7
Therefore put to death your members which are on the earth: fornication, uncleanness, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. 6 **Because of these things the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience, 7 in which you yourselves once walked when you lived in them. **

If you “walk” in them (live this sinful lifestyle again/do these sins again) after you are sanctified, then you lose your sanctification, and if you do not repent of these sins before death, then you will not inherit eternal life. Jesus only saves those persons who obey Him until death Hebrews 5:9. If you do not repent before death, then instead of inheriting eternal life when you die, you will receive the wrath of God.

All persons who do evil and who also do not repent before death are called “sons of disobedience” and they will not inherit eternal life.

Romans 6:16-18
Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness? 17But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, 18and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.

Jesus only gives eternal life to those who obey Him (those who become slaves of righteousness) until they die.

1 John 2:4
He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Matthew 24:12-13
Because of the increase of wickedness, the love (obedience) of most will grow cold (they will no longer obey), 13but he who stands firm (in obedience to the faith) to the end (of his life) will be saved.

2 John 1:6
This is love, that we walk according to His commandments. This is the commandment, that as you have heard from the beginning, you should walk in it.

John 14:21
He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me.

1 John 5:3
For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.

1 John 2:4
He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

There will be many surprised “Christians” at their judgment. They think that they will be saved/inherit eternal life without having to obey God’s commandments.

James 2:20
But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?

James 2:24
You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Revelation 3:1-4
And to the angel of the church in Sardis write,
‘These things says He who has the seven Spirits of God and the seven stars: “I know your works, that you have a name (Christian) that you are alive, but you are dead. 2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die, for I have not found your works perfect before God. 3 Remember therefore how you have received and heard; hold fast and repent. Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you. 4 You have a few names even in Sardis who have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with Me in white, for they are worthy.

Only the persons who are still in the state of sanctifying grace when they die actually inherit eternal life.