A "few" will be saved?

[Sirach2]

In summary:

• Jesus himself proclaimed the distribution of human souls into Heaven and Hell.
• Sacred Scripture, when read in light of reason, confirms what Our Blessed Lord said. From the many that turned away from God and perished in the Old Testament, to Peter and Paul writing about salvation as scarce and delicate, the fewness of the faithful is sound.
• Sacred Tradition of the fathers, saints, and theologians affirm this. You laughed it off on the first page, but unless you want to accuse every single sermon, letter, or journal of the faithful as being forged or fabricated (and what a scandalous Church we live in if that’s the case), they too say fewer enter heaven than enter hell, like Jesus taught.
• In relation to the previous one, the living Church through its proclamation of “No Salvation Outside the Church”, when read in light of everything previous, also affirms it.

Simply awesome!
With such theological expertise, who can argue with a 22-year-old who has scriptures all profoundly interpreted with an exactness that defies rebuttal. I look forward to your conclave, my young man!

Actually, I have learned years ago not to contest with youngsters who set their elders and the Church aside, as having full knowledge of the truth, and being immune to correction. I have no desire to “win” in the face of such effrontery.

 

[brb3]

Simply awesome!
With such theological expertise, who can argue with a 22-year-old who has scriptures all profoundly interpreted with an exactness that defies rebuttal. I look forward to your conclave, my young man!

Actually, I have learned years ago not to contest with youngsters who set their elders and the Church aside, as having full knowledge of the truth, and being immune to correction. I have no desire to “win” in the face of such effrontery.

If you are so wise & learned …u should have thicker skin than shown here, and be able to turn other cheek to Liquid…as he is your brother In Christos !!
Recall words of Christ in Matthew 5:20 …& of the Sermon on the Mount.
In spirit of Christmas …lets all here control our tempers :grouphug:

 

[Sirach2]

If you are so wise & learned …u should have thicker skin than shown here, and be able to turn other cheek to Liquid…as he is your brother In Christos !!
Recall words of Christ in Matthew 5:20 …& of the Sermon on the Mount.
In spirit of Christmas …lets all here control our tempers :grouphug:

It seems best to post the dictionary definition of a **literary device **used by authors, called irony:

1. a technique of indicating, as through character or plot development, an intention or attitude opposite to that which is actually or ostensibly stated.
2. (especially in contemporary writing) a manner of organizing a work so as to give full expression to contradictory or complementary impulses, attitudes, etc., especially as a means of indicating detachment from a subject, theme, or emotion.

Let’s also consider God’s literary device using irony in scripture:

Job 38:4-8, "Where were you when I created the earth? Tell me, since you know so much! 5 Who decided on its size? Certainly you’ll know that! Who came up with the blueprints and measurements? 6 How was its foundation poured, and who set the cornerstone, 7 While the morning stars sang in chorus and all the angels shouted praise? 8 And who took charge of the ocean when it gushed forth like a baby from the womb? 9 That was me!

Now let’s review Liquid47’s dogmatic words on salvation (which is not the teaching of the Church, as you know): “The first and most obvious one is “Outside the Church There Is No Salvation”. It means what it means.”
I thought it was odd for you to defend him when you hold an opposite, but correct view, as stated in this post:

I have a Baptist friend who knows what the Catholic teaches, but rejects the core teachings. What is the Catholic teaching of a person who knows what the Catholic Church teaches, but chooses to reject it in regards to his salvation? Can a person like this still go to heaven even he was never a Catholic?

Certainly, our CCC affirms this. Popes have spoke to this many times.

In conclusion, I commend you for having become a Catholic a couple years ago through the RCIA process, and welcome you to the RCC. I understand you still have a few gray areas that you struggle with, but your understanding is far superior to Liquid47’s.

Therefore, your attempts to criticize me are rather puzzling.

 

[brb3]

Sirach2 …

I have so many errors in my understandings it will take me years to even discover them, much less denounce them. But, each day I resolve to do so … to some degree.
2 Timothy 2:15 is my challenge, from St Paul.
Lets debate the meaning of S. SCRIPTURE …and not each others intentions. We both know Liquid means well, and hopes someday to become a Clergyman. This is very admirable of him … so lets give him all our support & wisdom…

 

[Sirach2]

Sirach2 …

I have so many errors in my understandings it will take me years to even discover them, much less denounce them. But, each day I resolve to do so … to some degree.
2 Timothy 2:15 is my challenge, from St Paul.
Lets debate the meaning of S. SCRIPTURE …and not each others intentions.

I’m clueless why you posted this verse. What is it you want to debate about it?

 

[brb3]

Now, that quote of “Outside the Church there is no Salvation” …has been much discussed/explained.
The CC allows that many non-Catholics will be saved, thru their Protestant churches, etc. We all will be judged upon the light we have received. Once someone is shown / understands the Catholic Church is the Church of the Apostles, founded on Christ, …then we are judged upon that HIGH STANDARD !!
Nevertheless, w/o a life of righteousness & perseverance til the end …neither Protestant, Jew, nor Catholic will be saved.

 

[Sirach2]

Nevertheless, w/o a life of righteousness & perseverance til the end …neither Protestant, Jew, nor Catholic will be saved.

I don’t have a problem with that.

 

[brb3]

I’m clueless why you posted this verse. What is it you want to debate about it?

Not that verse, but Sacred Scripture in general sense … that Pauline verse speaks for itself.

…the verses on Few to be Saved… in this thread.

 

[Sirach2]

Not that verse, but Sacred Scripture in general sense … that Pauline verse speaks for itself.

…the verses on Few to be Saved… in this thread.

I think you already have a pretty good understanding, so what’s to debate? For the record, I never said many would be saved, nor did I deny that there would be few. Agree? I simply inferred that God alone knows the number of elect, and it shouldn’t matter to any of us whether that number is large or small, providing we mind our p’s and q’s and live out our salvation with the light of grace we have been given.

Beyond that, I don’t have the stomach to argue about salvation because so many people on this forum and elsewhere drive others away with an overly rigid stand that is not supported by the Church, but they will pull teeth to convince others that it is. It is very discouraging, because they will not hear truth. I’ve been in this discussion numerous times, and it usually winds up in total dissension with the moderator closing it down. That helps no one.

 

[BVMFatima]

I guess it comes down to whether or not we take Christ at his own word. Unfortunately, these days the concept of sin is often abolished in some people’s mind and thus they conclude that no one goes to hell. This is clearly against Sacred Scripture, Sacred Tradition, and the teaching of the Church. It’s not a popular teaching, but the truth is the truth is the truth.
**
That said, no one on earth can declare with certainty that any soul is in heaven, hell, or purgatory. That’s why we need to pray for the dead.**

mda

So how does the Church know which saints are in heaven?

 

[Sirach2]

So how does the Church know which saints are in heaven?

There is a lengthly process into the witnesses, writings, and life of the person, which must be finally confirmed with a miracle through the person’s intercession, that is beyond a shadow of a doubt. When the Church canonizes a person, it is infallible.

 

[brb3]

So how does the Church know which saints are in heaven?

I think it requires SEVERAL miracles … the evidence must be overwhelming !!

 

[Jerry-Jet]

It is possible for any Non Catholic to mortally sin. If they die in that state they will go to Hell just like any Catholic will.

Since non Catholics don’t have the sacrament of confession it is more difficult for them to make it to Heaven because God has to deal outside of the sacraments–which of course He is able to do–but just because He is able to do that doesn’t mean that necessarily He will many times and easily do that.

And it doesn’t mean that any Non Catholic would COOPERATE with whatever EXCEPTIONAL extra sacramental grace that the Lord might be offering.

It is possible for people who are not formally untied to the Catholic Church to make it to heaven. Just because it is POSSIBLE does not mean that it is PROBABLE.

St. Thomas Aquinas didn’t think a majority of people make it to Heaven and he was no dummy.

It is not easy as pie to die in a state of grace. To do so one should frequently examine their conscience and repent. how many people actually do that? how many people put off confession and then have death unexpectedly happen?

Don’t tell me that doesn’t happen! Jesus says that death comes like a theif in the night. Many are not ready!

If you saked every Catholic in the world if they were “working out their salvation with FEAR and trembling” like St. Paul said we would in holy scripture how many would say YES!???

And by the way–the reason the Church KNOWS that some saints are already in heaven is that that reality can be known by special revelation of God as the Catholic Church has always taught.

When the Catholic church examines a person life and confirms that they have lived a life of HEROIC VIRTUE and when 2 miracles have been done by asking for their INTERCESSION after death–when the competent authorities vouchsafe these things after much examination and prayer–and when the Pope agrees after much prayers and declares THUS–then that declaration is TRUE.

There are people who are saints that haven’t been recognized as saints by the Catholic church–the Church never has said that its list of saints is exhaustive.

Some saints in heaven have already completed their purification in purgatory.

It is not RIGID to tell people the truth–Jesus talks about the “FEW” and “Hell” because it was and si TRUE and people need to know that truth.

If people are turned away because they don’t LIKE the truth–well that’s been going on ever since the beginning of time.

Getting to heaven means carrying one’s cross. that never has been–isn’t now–and in the future won’t be EASY.

On the other hand Jesus said “My burden is easy and My yoke is light”. he also said “today thou wilt be with Me in paradise.”

The REAL truth is two sided–the Mercy of god and the Justice of God.

BOTH are true.

Fear of the Lord is a good thing AND trust in the Lord is a good thing.

BOTH are necessary.

 

[Sirach2]

I think it requires SEVERAL miracles … the evidence must be overwhelming !!

It takes one for beatification, and a second one for canonizatin. And yes, it must leave absolutely no doubt about the authenticity.

 

[MichaelTDoyle]

Jesus discusses this very question “A ‘few’ will be saved?” in the new testament.

[21] Jesus saith to him: If thou wilt be perfect, go sell what thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come follow me. [22] And when the young man had heard this word, he went away sad: for he had great possessions. [23] Then Jesus said to his disciples: Amen, I say to you, that a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. [24] And again I say to you: It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of heaven. [25] And when they had heard this, the disciples wondered very much, saying: Who then can be saved?

[26] And Jesus beholding, said to them: With men this is impossible: but with God all things are possible. [Matthew 19:26]

I think the answer is we must trust in the Lord, pray for his mercy and hope for all men to come to Him. In terms of answering the question, I think it means that judgement is God’s alone and no amount of legal wrangling will change that. However we must still obey Him and His Church to always strive to “be perfect”.

 

[Sirach2]

I think the answer is we must trust in the Lord, pray for his mercy and hope for all men to come to Him. In terms of answering the question,** I think it means that judgement is God’s alone and no amount of legal wrangling will change that**. However we must still obey Him and His Church to always strive to “be perfect”.

At last, someone speaks with common sense and virtue! It is most refreshing to see this trust and spiritual balance!

 

[Sirach2]

Since non Catholics don’t have the sacrament of confession it is more difficult for them to make it to Heaven because God has to deal outside of the sacraments–which of course He is able to do–but just because He is able to do that doesn’t mean that necessarily He will many times and easily do that.

Jerry, please remember that God is able to work outside of the sacraments and is not limited to them exclusively.

St. Thomas Aquinas didn’t think a majority of people make it to Heaven and he was no dummy.

I really weary of reading these proofs purportedly uttered by a saint. Here are St. Thomas’s exact words:

Concerning the number of all the predestined, some say that so many men will be saved as angels fell; some, so many as there were angels left; others, as many as the number of angels created by God. It is, however, better to say that, "to God alone is known the number for whom is reserved eternal happiness *From the ‘secret’ prayer of the missal, ‘pro vivis et defunctis.’]"

This is what I have been saying throughout this thread, and echoed by Michael Doyle above. It is a matter of MYOB and leave it to God, putting it crudely and succinctly.

For those following along who fall prey to putting all their eggs in saints’ baskets – they are holy; they are in heaven; some of their teachings have been incorporated into the Church. However, they never had the Office of the Keys, the infallibility of the Pope, and whatever good they stated must be understood, not as gospel simply because they are saints, but only in light of Magisterial teaching, who alone has the charism to interpret and declare Truth.

 

[brb3]

Jerry, please remember that God is able to work outside of the sacraments and is not limited to them exclusively.

I really weary of reading these proofs purportedly uttered by a saint. Here are St. Thomas’s exact words:

This is what I have been saying throughout this thread, and echoed by Michael Doyle above. It is a matter of MYOB and leave it to God, putting it crudely and succinctly.

For those following along who fall prey to putting all their eggs in saints’ baskets – they are holy; they are in heaven; some of their teachings have been incorporated into the Church. However, they never had the Office of the Keys, the infallibility of the Pope, and whatever good they stated must be understood, not as gospel simply because they are saints, but only in light of Magisterial teaching, who alone has the charism to interpret and declare Truth.

Well, our Popes & Magesterium could bind us all to heaven or loose us to hell. They have the Keys/ authority to do so. But, they would have to have the certainty that the Holy Spirit desired they to take such action. Apparently, they are being moved to not go to either extreme.

 

[paul_c]

Well, I’ll be saved for sure.

Not sure about the rest of you.

I hope you are joking. No one’s salvation is assured and we are not our own judges

 

[Sirach2]

I hope you are joking. No one’s salvation is assured and we are not our own judges

It was a nice bit of humor in an uptight thread. Sorry you misread it.