A "few" will be saved?

[paul_c]

Simply awesome!
With such theological expertise, who can argue with a 22-year-old who has scriptures all profoundly interpreted with an exactness that defies rebuttal. I look forward to your conclave, my young man!

Actually, I have learned years ago not to contest with youngsters who set their elders and the Church aside, as having full knowledge of the truth, and being immune to correction. I have no desire to “win” in the face of such effrontery.

Its not about age. Mary was 15 or so when she gave birth to Jesus. St Therese of Lisieux is a doctor of the Church and she died at 24, Why are you on him so hard. I suggest you review your own motivations. Attack the position, not the person

 

[october_baby]

Simply awesome!
With such theological expertise, who can argue with a 22-year-old who has scriptures all profoundly interpreted with an exactness that defies rebuttal. I look forward to your conclave, my young man!

Actually, I have learned years ago not to contest with youngsters who set their elders and the Church aside, as having full knowledge of the truth, and being immune to correction. I have no desire to “win” in the face of such effrontery.

This is not snide,snarky, sarcasm???

 

[paul_c]

This question always revolves around how high Jesus sets the bar. But I think that misses the point. Getting to heaven is about learning to love. If you can learn to put others ahead of yourself, you can get to heaven.

 

[Sirach2]

Its not about age. Mary was 15 or so when she gave birth to Jesus. St Therese of Lisieux is a doctor of the Church and she died at 24, Why are you on him so hard. I suggest you review your own motivations. Attack the position, not the person

Absolutely, and St. Therese is one of the saints in the order of Carmel to which I have professed life promises. I very well know her doctrine. What you fail to notice though, is that she was humbly submissive to the Magisterium, as was the Foundress, St. Teresa of Avila. May I quote something for you?

When the latter was instructed in a vision by Jesus to found a convent in a particular city, her spiritual director who knew her authenticity with regard to visions, set it aside in preference to where he wanted her to found a convent. Perplexed with the contradiction, she asked Jesus what to do. “Obey him, Daughter, but I will hold him responsible for the consequences.”

Our Lord sets aside his own command because of his love for obedience, even when it is not His will! I never forgot the example, and I live by it. As we reflect on the gospel where Jesus returned home with Mary and Joseph, note well that he (infinite God) obeyed finite man for 30+ years. To further emphasize his love for obedience, he instructed the apostles that “he who hears YOU, hears ME!”

Obedience to papal authority and teaching is paramount, and when someone comes along with private understanding that contradicts what the church teaches, do you believe I am going to remain silent and not react? If I could observe an iota of obedience or a possiblilty suggesting that he was mistaken, there would be no problem with age 22 sharing our faith. As it was, he shared a false version of TRUE teaching, with insistence that he was right. This is, of course, very unlike St. Therese, and age does not give him privilege when he is dogmatically teaching error.

 

[Sirach2]

This is not snide,snarky, sarcasm???

You came late to the thread, so this post may be helpful to you.

 

[Pete_Holter]

I would like to share some research from the same website, on Augustine’s doctrine that places him in a questionable light.

Greetings in Christ!

I question anyone who places Augustine’s doctrine in a questionable light. Ha, ha.

Saint Augustine is the Doctor of Grace, “the vanquisher of every heresy,” and “the greatest Father of the Latin Church,” whose “legacy to… theologians… is the immense patrimony of his thought, which is as a whole valid even now” (Pope Pius XI, Ad Salutem Humani; Pope Benedict XVI, Audience 1/9/08; Pope John Paul II, Augustinum Hipponsensem).

The author of the encyclopedia article, Eugène Portalié, on the other hand, is no one I’ve ever heard of apart from his objectionable evaluation of Augustine.

Stand with Augustine, and you will stand with our Lord on the Day of Christ.

BaROOOOOOba!

With love in the LORD,
Pete

 

[Sirach2]

Greetings in Christ!

I question anyone who places Augustine’s doctrine in a questionable light. Ha, ha.

Saint Augustine is the Doctor of Grace, …]

It’s been awhile since anything on Augustine was stated rather early in the thread. Here’s the background.
Sirach2 in reply:

Dolezal:

St. Augustine explains in his City of God that the number of saved is exceeded by those who will be lost, and that even faithful Catholics will be lost.

Again, we cannot go back into time and allow a previous saint to set aside current Church teachings whenever they contradict them. The Church alone has the keys, not a saint, however holy.

I have no dispute with you about his worthiness to be called Doctor, but I challenge anyone to show that he had the charism belonging to the Pope; i.e., to proclaim infallible teachings. If you are able to cite a document from a Pope that substantiates the worthy Doctor’s “opinion” then I’ll listen. I’ve asked for this from others, and they did not provide it, because there is no such teaching from the Magisterium.

I stand by my post #57 where St. Thomas Aquinas, many centuries later than Augustine’s, commented that it is best not to second guess the numbers of saved or damned, but to leave it to God. He, too, is a Doctor.

So anything a saint opines does not qualify for acceptance as truth by the faithful unless it is substantiated by the RCC. [Question to self: why is it that people put saints above the Hierarchy?]

Nice to see a new face in this thread, Pete. Thanks for stopping by.

 

[paul_c]

Absolutely, and St. Therese is one of the saints in the order of Carmel to which I have professed life promises. I very well know her doctrine. What you fail to notice though, is that she was humbly submissive to the Magisterium, as was the Foundress, St. Teresa of Avila. May I quote something for you?

When the latter was instructed in a vision by Jesus to found a convent in a particular city, her spiritual director who knew her authenticity with regard to visions, set it aside in preference to where he wanted her to found a convent. Perplexed with the contradiction, she asked Jesus what to do. “Obey him, Daughter, but I will hold him responsible for the consequences.”

Our Lord sets aside his own command because of his love for obedience, even when it is not His will! I never forgot the example, and I live by it. As we reflect on the gospel where Jesus returned home with Mary and Joseph, note well that he (infinite God) obeyed finite man for 30+ years. To further emphasize his love for obedience, he instructed the apostles that “he who hears YOU, hears ME!”

Obedience to papal authority and teaching is paramount, and when someone comes along with private understanding that contradicts what the church teaches, do you believe I am going to remain silent and not react? If I could observe an iota of obedience or a possiblilty suggesting that he was mistaken, there would be no problem with age 22 sharing our faith. As it was, he shared a false version of TRUE teaching, with insistence that he was right. This is, of course, very unlike St. Therese, and age does not give him privilege when he is dogmatically teaching error.

I missed what he said that was inconsistent with Catholic doctrine. But even if he did, you could have pointed it out charitably without attacking him personally. What people remember is the attacks in that case, not the wisdom of your arguments

 

[Pete_Holter]

It’s been awhile since anything on Augustine was stated rather early in the thread. Here’s the background.

I have no dispute with you about his worthiness to be called Doctor, but I challenge anyone to show that he had the charism belonging to the Pope; i.e., to proclaim infallible teachings. If you are able to cite a document from a Pope that substantiates the worthy Doctor’s “opinion” then I’ll listen. I’ve asked for this from others, and they did not provide it, because there is no such teaching from the Magisterium.

I stand by my post #57 where St. Thomas Aquinas, many centuries later than Augustine’s, commented that it is best not to second guess the numbers of saved or damned, but to leave it to God. He, too, is a Doctor.

So anything a saint opines does not qualify for acceptance as truth by the faithful unless it is substantiated by the RCC. [Question to self: why is it that people put saints above the Hierarchy?]

Nice to see a new face in this thread, Pete. Thanks for stopping by.

Hi Sirach!

Who is putting saints above the hierarchy? Augustine is part of the hierarchy. No one is claiming infallibility for Augustine. Barooba?

Everyone stands with Aquinas on the point that he is making: he is saying that we do not know if there are 43 or 100,456 or 2 or 1,000,000,000 who are saved. Augustine too asserted that “We do not know the number either of the saints or of the devils” (, Ch. 29Enchiridion).

And both were likewise agreed that the number of the elect was small when compared with the number of the reprobate since many enter into destruction in comparison with the few who find the way leading to life. You are free to think otherwise if you have a different understanding of the words of our Lord.

If you wanna see my face in real life, come to Mass!

With the love of Christ,
Pete

“If you desire to be satiated with delicious food, read the works of the blessed Augustine… and seek not our chaff in comparison with his fine wheat” (Pope Gregory the Great, , Bk. 10, Epistle 37* Registrum Epistolarum*).

 

[Sirach2]

Who is putting saints above the hierarchy? Augustine is part of the hierarchy. No one is claiming infallibility for Augustine.

You surely don’t believe he is a Pope in the line of succession, do you? He isn’t.

Everyone stands with Aquinas on the point that he is making: he is saying that we do not know if there are 43 or 100,456 or 2 or 1,000,000,000 who are saved. Augustine too asserted that “We do not know the number either of the saints or of the devils”

This is a good sumnation for the topic of this thread, which I have been expressing all along. We do not know, only God knows, and we ought not to trouble ourselves trying to figure it out. That being said, I think my work here is finished, and I excuse myself from this thread.

 

[PeaceInChrist]

I only read the first few pages, but I thoroughly agree with Sirach2. The amount of those saved is possibly one of the most arrogant, uncharitable, and idiotic of topics to speculate on. Do you know how many struggling Catholics are thrown into despair by idiotic nonsense like this? I can tell you it is many, and I was among them. It literally serves no purpose but to cause despair or extreme fear, which are not from God. It is not our concern. It is not our place to even speculate. It is prideful beyond measure, because it puts us in the position of guessing at the mind of Almighty God. It also encourages those weak in faith to either give up or build a relationship with God upon fear, and not love. Tell me with a straight face that is a good thing.

How about this: preach of Christ’s mercy and love. Encourage a relationship with Christ. Explain charitably why sins are wrong, and the reason behind the ‘rules’. Pray for others, love Him and others, do His will, and don’t put yourself in the position of speculating upon his judgement. Or go ahead and speculate, cause despair, and then try and explain that to Him on the last day. Don’t get me wrong: fear of hell isn’t bad. Neither is disdain of sin. But speculation on God’s judgement is just idiotic, whether it be regarding and individual or a %.

Oh, by the way, St Faustina had quite a different revelation regarding Christ’s mercy than many of the ‘99% are damned’ crowd. I don’t take it as dogma, but darn it if it doesn’t show that even great Saints have differing views.

 

[Sirach2]

i only read the first few pages, but i thoroughly agree with sirach2. The amount of those saved is possibly one of the most arrogant, uncharitable, and idiotic of topics to speculate on. Do you know how many struggling catholics are thrown into despair by idiotic nonsense like this? I can tell you it is many, and i was among them. It literally serves no purpose but to cause despair or extreme fear, which are not from god. It is not our concern. It is not our place to even speculate. It is prideful beyond measure, because it puts us in the position of guessing at the mind of almighty god. It also encourages those weak in faith to either give up or build a relationship with god upon fear, and not love. Tell me with a straight face that is a good thing.

How about this: Preach of christ’s mercy and love. Encourage a relationship with christ. Explain charitably why sins are wrong, and the reason behind the ‘rules’. Pray for others, love him and others, do his will, and don’t put yourself in the position of speculating upon his judgement. Or go ahead and speculate, cause despair, and then try and explain that to him on the last day. Don’t get me wrong: Fear of hell isn’t bad. Neither is disdain of sin. But speculation on god’s judgement is just idiotic, whether it be regarding and individual or a %.

Oh, by the way, st faustina had quite a different revelation regarding christ’s mercy than many of the ‘99% are damned’ crowd. I don’t take it as dogma, but darn it if it doesn’t show that even great saints have differing views.

[sign]Wonderful post - 5 stars - Amen![/sign]
THANK YOU SO MUCH!!

 

[brb3]

I only read the first few pages, but I thoroughly agree with Sirach2. The amount of those saved is possibly one of the most arrogant, uncharitable, and idiotic of topics to speculate on. Do you know how many struggling Catholics are thrown into despair by idiotic nonsense like this? I can tell you it is many, and I was among them. It literally serves no purpose but to cause despair or extreme fear, which are not from God. It is not our concern. It is not our place to even speculate. It is prideful beyond measure, because it puts us in the position of guessing at the mind of Almighty God. It also encourages those weak in faith to either give up or build a relationship with God upon fear, and not love. Tell me with a straight face that is a good thing.

How about this: preach of Christ’s mercy and love. Encourage a relationship with Christ. Explain charitably why sins are wrong, and the reason behind the ‘rules’. Pray for others, love Him and others, do His will, and don’t put yourself in the position of speculating upon his judgement. Or go ahead and speculate, cause despair, and then try and explain that to Him on the last day. Don’t get me wrong: fear of hell isn’t bad. Neither is disdain of sin. But speculation on God’s judgement is just idiotic, whether it be regarding and individual or a %.

Oh, by the way, St Faustina had quite a different revelation regarding Christ’s mercy than many of the ‘99% are damned’ crowd. I don’t take it as dogma, but darn it if it doesn’t show that even great Saints have differing views.

What did St.Faustina see …what was her personal revelation ?

 

[Sirach2]

What did St.Faustina see …what was her personal revelation ?

I thought I was done here, but this is a new issue.
Have you heard of the Divine Mercy Chaplet or Divine Mercy Sunday that Pope John Paul II instituted as a result of her revelations? It is celebrated the Sunday after Easter.

Her Diary is listed in my profile as one of my favorite books. She was ordered by her confessor, like St. Teresa of Avila, to write down all of her revelations. This was providential since posterity now has the wonderful benefit of reading her works, due to this priest’s command. Our Lord told her that she was His “secretary” and that many souls would benefit from this, as has proved to be true.

Among the many the revelations she received from Jesus were primarily His message to mankind that he is merciful, and that mercy is his greatest attribute. He appeals to us to pray for the dying using this Chaplet, since it is so powerful in obtaining death-bed conversions. He does not want any to be lost. Those who revere this message offer the chaplet particularly at 3 PM in honor of his sacred death, and other times during their day, since it is very short, yet most powerful.

I can testify among countless others to the many favors I have received, not only from reading the Diary, but also praying the chaplet Jesus gave her.

 

[brb3]

I thought I was done here, but this is a new issue.
Have you heard of the Divine Mercy Chaplet or Divine Mercy Sunday that Pope John Paul II instituted as a result of her revelations? It is celebrated the Sunday after Easter.

Her Diary is listed in my profile as one of my favorite books. She was ordered by her confessor, like St. Teresa of Avila, to write down all of her revelations. This was providential since posterity now has the wonderful benefit of reading her works, due to this priest’s command. Our Lord told her that she was His “secretary” and that many souls would benefit from this, as has proved to be true.

Among the many the revelations she received from Jesus were primarily His message to mankind that he is merciful, and that mercy is his greatest attribute. He appeals to us to pray for the dying using this Chaplet, since it is so powerful in obtaining death-bed conversions. He does not want any to be lost. Those who revere this message offer the chaplet particularly at 3 PM in honor of his sacred death, and other times during their day, since it is very short, yet most powerful.

I can testify among countless others to the many favors I have received, not only from reading the Diary, but also praying the chaplet Jesus gave her.

It would be c/w Christ’s love, kindness shown to all he encountered …even those who crucified him out of ignorance!! Even in his death, Christ asked the Father to forgive them, for their ignorant, errant beliefs/deeds.

The more we look at history, & our own ignorant mistakes that have hurt others …the beauty and need of Purgatory seems apparent. I just hope Purgatory is open to all, even to those with unconfessed Mortal sins. We truly are a sinful, confused people …in desperate need of a MERCIFUL SAVIOR, CHRIST THE LORD.

 

[paul_c]

I only read the first few pages, but I thoroughly agree with Sirach2. The amount of those saved is possibly one of the most arrogant, uncharitable, and idiotic of topics to speculate on. Do you know how many struggling Catholics are thrown into despair by idiotic nonsense like this? I can tell you it is many, and I was among them. It literally serves no purpose but to cause despair or extreme fear, which are not from God. It is not our concern. It is not our place to even speculate. It is prideful beyond measure, because it puts us in the position of guessing at the mind of Almighty God. It also encourages those weak in faith to either give up or build a relationship with God upon fear, and not love. Tell me with a straight face that is a good thing.

How about this: preach of Christ’s mercy and love. Encourage a relationship with Christ. Explain charitably why sins are wrong, and the reason behind the ‘rules’. Pray for others, love Him and others, do His will, and don’t put yourself in the position of speculating upon his judgement. Or go ahead and speculate, cause despair, and then try and explain that to Him on the last day. Don’t get me wrong: fear of hell isn’t bad. Neither is disdain of sin. But speculation on God’s judgement is just idiotic, whether it be regarding and individual or a %.

Oh, by the way, St Faustina had quite a different revelation regarding Christ’s mercy than many of the ‘99% are damned’ crowd. I don’t take it as dogma, but darn it if it doesn’t show that even great Saints have differing views.

You speak with passion but like in all things, balance is required. As you say, we SHOULD preach of Jesus’ mercy and love but this needs to be balanced by preaching also of Jesus’ just judgement. Just as counseling the doubtful is a work of mercy, so too is instructing the ignorant. It is an injustice to tell a sinner that his/her sins don’t matter because everyone is going to heaven. I would not doubt that there are many complacent souls in Hell. It is also an injustice to cause despair because God’s mercy is available to all those that ask through the sacraments.

While it is impossible to know who is in heaven or hell or the relative percentage, the question is really a proxy for the balance between justice and mercy.

 

[paul_c]

It would be c/w Christ’s love, kindness shown to all he encountered …even those who crucified him out of ignorance!! Even in his death, Christ asked the Father to forgive them, for their ignorant, errant beliefs/deeds.

The more we look at history, & our own ignorant mistakes that have hurt others …the beauty and need of Purgatory seems apparent. I just hope Purgatory is open to all, even to those with unconfessed Mortal sins. We truly are a sinful, confused people …in desperate need of a MERCIFUL SAVIOR, CHRIST THE LORD.

This is not Catholic teaching. Purgatory is only open to those that die in the state of grace. Its purpose is to purge out the tendency to sin for those that asked for mercy through the sacraments during life. God is merciful. He will forgive any sin we have as long as we are truly sorry for the sins, we confess our sins to a priest and we do the required penance. And we can come back to Him an infinite number of times. But he does not force us to come to HIM. He calls to us constantly but we have to respond positively to be saved. People do need to understand this.

 

[brb3]

This is not Catholic teaching. Purgatory is only open to those that die in the state of grace. Its purpose is to purge out the tendency to sin for those that asked for mercy through the sacraments during life. God is merciful. He will forgive any sin we have as long as we are truly sorry for the sins, we confess our sins to a priest and we do the required penance. And we can come back to Him an infinite number of times. But he does not force us to come to HIM. He calls to us constantly but we have to respond positively to be saved. People do need to understand this.

PaulC…

Yes, the Church teaches the Narrow Road to heaven. Even a single, unconfessed Mortal Sin will preclude our entry to the Kingdom.

But, how do we square that with Christ asking the Father to forgive his executioners ? The only thing I can see … is that since we are to imitate Christ, if we ask the Father, thru the Son, to forgive those who ignorantly harm us …then our prayers for them are answered as well !!!

In other words, PERHAPS, many otherwise mortal sinners, may receive mercy …via our prayers for them.

What else do u see as an explanation for Christ praying the Father for his executioners ?

 

[TEPO]

“Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.-Matthew 7:13-14

Do these verses mean a “few” will be saved? It seems the Catholic Church says many will be saved and none are even pronounced to be in hell.

Thanks!
Brian

I fear that few will be saved

 

[Pete_Holter]

Augustine is part of the hierarchy.

You surely don’t believe he is a Pope in the line of succession, do you? He isn’t.

The pope is not the hierarchy; rather, all of the bishops, priests, and deacons are the hierarchy. The pope is the visible head of the hierarchy. Here is a description of the added role that the Fathers play, upon whom, as Pope Leo XIII has said, “God has bestowed a more ample measure of His light” (Providentissimus Deus):

“Within the ecclesial community, the Fathers of the Church fulfill the function of guaranteeing fidelity to sacred Scripture. They ensure that the Church receives reliable and solid exegesis, capable of forming with the Chair of Peter a stable and consistent whole. The sacred Scriptures, authoritatively interpreted by the Magisterium in the light of the Fathers, shed light upon the Church’s journey through time, providing her with a stable foundation amid the vicissitudes of history” (Homily of Pope Benedict, 2/19/2012).

Objectively speaking, “a great multitude that no one could number” will be saved (Revelation 7:9; cf. 19:1f.). But relatively speaking, they will be few in comparison with the many who enter into destruction by the broad and easy way (cf. Matthew 7:13-14). The meaning of these verses seems rather plain. But if you think that it is actually the reverse, understanding our Lord’s words in a different light, you are free, each person being fully convinced in his own mind (cf. Romans 14:5)! Only let us hold fast to what we have attained (cf. Philippians 3:15-16). Augustine himself would consider this to be an “amicable controversy” between us (, Bk. 21, Ch. 17City of God).

I do have to point out that our beloved Pope Benedict contradicted Augustine in his latest book. But that’s ok. He can be wrong if he wants to. Ha, ha!

With the love of Christ,
Pete