A "few" will be saved?

[CaptFun]

Hi Brian;

Where my friend do you come up with such a position?

It’s clearly not biblical; nor is it the Official teaching of the Catholic church?

Catholic catechism: 1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, “eternal fire.” The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs."

1036 The affirmations of Sacred Scripture and the teachings of the Church on the subject of hell are a call to the responsibility incumbent upon man to make use of his freedom in view of his eternal destiny. They are at the same time an urgent call to conversion: “Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few.”

1037 God predestines no one to go to hell; for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. In the Eucharistic liturgy and in the daily prayers of her faithful, the Church implores the mercy of God, who does not want “any to perish, but all to come to repentance”:

Allow me to ask you Brian:

W/O being unduly judgmental; how people that you personally know [this is a retorical question] seem absolutely headed to heaven and not hell?

I SUSPECT: far fewer are heading in the RIGHT direction [up-hill], than the easier road, [downohill] to hell. MEISN; secular humanism; abortion; contraceptive sex; divorice; voting for the national- Democratic Party; co-habitaition; adultry; Missing Mass on purpose and so-on:shrug: And this is JUST the short list.

YES; every indication is that MANY, many more are headed to hell than to heaven.

God Bless you,

Pat /PJM

Thanks for your take and information Pat, especially the clips from the Catechism.
I agree with most of it too.

I didn’t think Brian had “a position” as much as he was asking a question about an admittedly tough teaching about salvation.

His statement about the Church teaching that many would be saved was (I thought) less of a contradiction of this scripture than a recalling of other scriptures like

Revelation 7:9 After this I had a vision of a great multitude, which no one could count, from every nation, race, people, and tongue. They stood before the throne and before the Lamb, wearing white robes and holding palm branches in their hands.

Many is not “most” and a multitude that no one could count could still be few when compared to a greater crowd that is NOT there (though these are not mentioned).

Anyway thanks to both you and Brian for leading me to ponder all this.

Pondering is not an end in itself of course but is good for deciding which road to take.

 

[Sirach2]

Here’s a bit of trivia that offers a mighty message for meditation. When you open these three links on the Psalms, I don’t recall seeing a single one that leaves out the word “mercy.” The universal Church prays these psalms daily in the Liturgy of the Hours, so how is it that so many focus on hell and the fewness saved? Maybe these need a change of heart and focus. It would be good if they join in praying the LOTH pleading God’s mercy for mankind.

drbo.org/cgi-bin/s?q=mercy&b=drb&t=0&p=150

drbo.org/cgi-bin/s?q=mercy&b=drb&t=0&p=200

drbo.org/cgi-bin/s?q=mercy&b=drb&t=0&p=250

While we’re considering so-called numbers, has anyone noticed these scriptures?

I am the Lord thy God, mighty, jealous, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; And showing mercy unto thousands to them that love me, and keep my commandments. Ex. 20: 5-6

For the record, I’m not promoting the idea that most are saved, nor denying that many are lost. Our vision is skewed whenever we turn our eyes from seeing our own plank to consider God’s judgment of others. There are far too many threads of this nature here at CAF.

There is good reason why Jesus appeared in our day to St. Faustina exhorting her to spread devotion to His Divine INFINITE mercy!

 

[GodHeals]

Thanks for your take and information Pat, especially the clips from the Catechism.
I agree with most of it too.

I didn’t think Brian had “a position” as much as he was asking a question about an admittedly tough teaching about salvation.

His statement about the Church teaching that many would be saved was (I thought) less of a contradiction of this scripture than a recalling of other scriptures like

Many is not “most” and a multitude that no one could count could still be few when compared to a greater crowd that is NOT there (though these are not mentioned).

Anyway thanks to both you and Brian for leading me to ponder all this.

Pondering is not an end in itself of course but is good for deciding which road to take.

Hi, It seems that I was asking probably due to the fact none are said to be in hell by the Catholic Church, but not sure.

**“For many are called, but few are chosen.””(Matthew 22:14) (RSVCE)
**

God is love and is merciful, but also just. I do believe when it comes to mortal sin, He will rightly judge us on the criteria He made known to the Church.

1860 Unintentional ignorance can diminish or even remove the imputability of a grave offense. But no one is deemed to be ignorant of the principles of the moral law, which are written in the conscience of every man. The promptings of feelings and passions can also diminish the voluntary and free character of the offense, as can external pressures or pathological disorders. Sin committed through malice, by deliberate choice of evil, is the gravest.

Why doesn’t MANY not mean MOST? Aren’t we all called to be saved? Not sure how to read Greek, would like to see what that means.

 

[GodHeals]

Hi Brian;

Where my friend do you come up with such a position?

It’s clearly not biblical; nor is it the Official teaching of the Catholic church?

W/O being unduly judgmental; how people that you personally know [this is a retorical question] seem absolutely headed to heaven and not hell?

I SUSPECT: far fewer are heading in the RIGHT direction [up-hill], than the easier road, [downohill] to hell. MEISN; secular humanism; abortion; contraceptive sex; divorice; voting for the national- Democratic Party; co-habitaition; adultry; Missing Mass on purpose and so-on:shrug: And this is JUST the short list.

YES; every indication is that MANY, many more are headed to hell than to heaven.

Hi Pat,

As, I just shared with someone else in another post, it seems that I was asking probably due to the fact none are said to be in hell by the Catholic Church, but not sure. I just get the feeling that the Church at different levels doesn’t take mortal sin seriously. But then again, when i look at the goodness in people’s hearts across the world, some who might be so called agnostics or atheist, maybe even they might be saved somehow, by having faith in the end.

**
Not sure if rejecting the One Triune God verbally is the criteria for hell (Muslims, Atheists, Agnostics, Mormons, etc.), but think what we also do in correlation with the natural law God put on our hearts and our current understanding of God that may tell a different story of our overall relationship to God. Not sure if that can be said for Atheist or Agnostics as much, but God only knows. Is that a wrong thinking? Maybe that would add to those going to heaven, but still not sure how that works with the verse below. Not sure why it says many, not all, are called.**

“For many are called, but few are chosen.””(Matthew 22:14) (RSVCE)

God is love and is merciful, but also just. I do believe when it comes to mortal sin, He will rightly judge us on the criteria He made known to the Church.

1860 Unintentional ignorance can diminish or even remove the imputability of a grave offense. But no one is deemed to be ignorant of the principles of the moral law, which are written in the conscience of every man. The promptings of feelings and passions can also diminish the voluntary and free character of the offense, as can external pressures or pathological disorders. Sin committed through malice, by deliberate choice of evil, is the gravest.

Why doesn’t MANY not mean MOST? Aren’t we all called to be saved? Not sure how to read Greek, would like to see what that means.

 

[paul_c]

Hi Pat,

As, I just shared with someone else in another post, it seems that I was asking probably due to the fact none are said to be in hell by the Catholic Church, but not sure. I just get the feeling that the Church at different levels doesn’t take mortal sin seriously. But then again, when i look at the goodness in people’s hearts across the world, some who might be so called agnostics or atheist, maybe even they might be saved somehow, by having faith in the end.

**
Not sure if rejecting the One Triune God verbally is the criteria for hell (Muslims, Atheists, Agnostics, Mormons, etc.), but think what we also do in correlation with the natural law God put on our hearts and our current understanding of God that may tell a different story of our overall relationship to God. Not sure if that can be said for Atheist or Agnostics as much, but God only knows. Is that a wrong thinking? Maybe that would add to those going to heaven, but still not sure how that works with the verse below. Not sure why it says many, not all, are called.**

“For many are called, but few are chosen.””(Matthew 22:14) (RSVCE)

God is love and is merciful, but also just. I do believe when it comes to mortal sin, He will rightly judge us on the criteria He made known to the Church.

1860 Unintentional ignorance can diminish or even remove the imputability of a grave offense. But no one is deemed to be ignorant of the principles of the moral law, which are written in the conscience of every man. The promptings of feelings and passions can also diminish the voluntary and free character of the offense, as can external pressures or pathological disorders. Sin committed through malice, by deliberate choice of evil, is the gravest.

Why doesn’t MANY not mean MOST? Aren’t we all called to be saved? Not sure how to read Greek, would like to see what that means.

You are misunderstanding the catholic teaching. The teaching is that we can not judge ourselves who is in Hell so we can’t say definitively if any one person is in Hell. That is for God to judge. But the Church is clear that there IS a hell and that it is inhabited by those that die outside the state of grace.

You enter grace in the following ways:

• You are baptized in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit
• you die for the faith before being baptized (the baptism of blood)
• You die before you can be baptized but you were actively pursuing it (baptism of desire)
• You have no knowledge of the need to be baptized but you live a life of love based on the natural law (invincible ignorance)

you must be in the state of grace when you die to enter heaven. You stay in the state of grace by loving God and neighbor and avoiding Mortal sin

If you commit mortal sin, you fall from grace and will be condemned unless you reconcile with God through

• sacramental confession
• perfect contrition (sorrow with all your heart for offending God, not because of punishment)

I think its safe to say that there are a lot of people who die outside the state of grace and hence are in hell. We just don’t know who they are because we can’t tell who might experience perfect contrition

 

[Brendan_64]

Perhaps getting into discussions about how many will/won’t be saved, will it be a majority/minority etc. is the wrong way to look at it? We cannot possible answer such questions as we cannot possibly know how our Lord will judge each individual sinner. Suffice to say that there is a Heaven and there is a Hell.

All we can do is to strive to act in the manner that Jesus taught us to, and do what we can to spread this to others in the hope that they too can see the Light.

 

[Rooibok]

Do below verses have anything to do with “few will be saved”?

Zechariah 13:8-9

8 And there shall be in all the earth, saith the Lord, two parts in it shall be scattered, and shall perish: but the third part shall be left therein.

9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined: and I will try them as gold is tried. They shall call on my name, and I will hear them. I will say: Thou art my people: and they shall say: The Lord is my God.

 

[Layp3rs0n]

Does anyone here TRUST God? Raise your hand!

Are you a huge screw up and fail Him often? Raise your hand!

Do you fear hell and lament when you sin?

And when you lament your sin, do you remember you TRUST God?

I don’t know about you but I just raised my hand four times. Guess what. Yes, a FEW will be saved. Very few indeed. But wait, we are Catholics. We have the Sacraments. When we fail we Confess, LOVE God more intensely for His Mercy, and try to do better. You may even sin again. Guess what. You can still repent, confess and love God. Those willfully, obstinately outside the Christian community, and Catholics that don’t try or care or submit to the Magisterium, I.e the REST of the world, is where fear should live. But wait, you! You HOPE in, TRUST in and place your whole self in Christ in His Church, humbly aware that you are only by His Grace that you do not become also a reprobate and
forsake the Truth. And ever on your mind is the overwhelming joyous knowlege none should forget. God WANTS to save you. Christ is looking at your soul, seeing what you could be in Him and saying, “Look at THAT! I want THAT!” He can’t take His eyes off you for an instant. A Catholic that goes to hell is in love with death. Do you WANT to be saved? Do you, as you should, fear becoming like the rest? Do you at all hours of the day beseech His mercy? Fear not! Though the number of the saved is few, and you cannot with certainty know the state of your soul, remember that God is love. Cry out to Him, do your very best, know that what is impossible to man is not impossible for God and in your weakness God will be shown as strong. Let your trust in Him cast out all fear. Wait, Hope, pray. Hold onto His feet and kiss His wounds. Hope and trust, with adoration and contrition do not disappoint. Though few find the narrow path, rejoice, you have found it! And should you lose it, call out, abd a hand that has been pierced will untangle you from the thorns and set you back on it. If you hope you will not be one of the many, but of the few! Praised be Jesus Christ, now and forever. Amen!

 

[GodHeals]

You are misunderstanding the catholic teaching. The teaching is that we can not judge ourselves who is in Hell so we can’t say definitively if any one person is in Hell. That is for God to judge. But the Church is clear that there IS a hell and that it is inhabited by those that die outside the state of grace.

You enter grace in the following ways:

• You are baptized in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit
• you die for the faith before being baptized (the baptism of blood)
• You die before you can be baptized but you were actively pursuing it (baptism of desire)
• You have no knowledge of the need to be baptized but you live a life of love based on the natural law (invincible ignorance)

you must be in the state of grace when you die to enter heaven. You stay in the state of grace by loving God and neighbor and avoiding Mortal sin

If you commit mortal sin, you fall from grace and will be condemned unless you reconcile with God through

• sacramental confession
• perfect contrition (sorrow with all your heart for offending God, not because of punishment)

I think its safe to say that there are a lot of people who die outside the state of grace and hence are in hell. We just don’t know who they are because we can’t tell who might experience perfect contrition

Thank you for your post.
**
perfect contrition (sorrow with all your heart for offending God, not because of punishment)**

You mentioned perfect contrition. That can be made outside of confession for those who aren’t Christian or Catholic or might not have even heard about the need for baptism or repentance?

 

[GodHeals]

Does anyone here TRUST God? Raise your hand!

Are you a huge screw up and fail Him often? Raise your hand!

Do you fear hell and lament when you sin?

And when you lament your sin, do you remember you TRUST God?

I don’t know about you but I just raised my hand four times. Guess what. Yes, a FEW will be saved. Very few indeed. But wait, we are Catholics. We have the Sacraments. When we fail we Confess, LOVE God more intensely for His Mercy, and try to do better. You may even sin again. Guess what. You can still repent, confess and love God. Those willfully, obstinately outside the Christian community, and Catholics that don’t try or care or submit to the Magisterium, I.e the REST of the world, is where fear should live. But wait, you! You HOPE in, TRUST in and place your whole self in Christ in His Church, humbly aware that you are only by His Grace that you do not become also a reprobate and
forsake the Truth. And ever on your mind is the overwhelming joyous knowlege none should forget. God WANTS to save you. Christ is looking at your soul, seeing what you could be in Him and saying, “Look at THAT! I want THAT!” He can’t take His eyes off you for an instant. A Catholic that goes to hell is in love with death. Do you WANT to be saved? Do you, as you should, fear becoming like the rest? Do you at all hours of the day beseech His mercy? Fear not! Though the number of the saved is few, and you cannot with certainty know the state of your soul, remember that God is love. Cry out to Him, do your very best, know that what is impossible to man is not impossible for God and in your weakness God will be shown as strong. Let your trust in Him cast out all fear. Wait, Hope, pray. Hold onto His feet and kiss His wounds. Hope and trust, with adoration and contrition do not disappoint. Though few find the narrow path, rejoice, you have found it! And should you lose it, call out, abd a hand that has been pierced will untangle you from the thorns and set you back on it. If you hope you will not be one of the many, but of the few! Praised be Jesus Christ, now and forever. Amen!

God Bless you! Thank you for sharing.

 

[GodHeals]

Do below verses have anything to do with “few will be saved”?

Zechariah 13:8-9

8 And there shall be in all the earth, saith the Lord, two parts in it shall be scattered, and shall perish: but the third part shall be left therein.

9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined: and I will try them as gold is tried. They shall call on my name, and I will hear them. I will say: Thou art my people: and they shall say: The Lord is my God.

Interesting… can this be about salvation and also purgatory? I don’t think i have heard these verses used before for either as i am not aware much regarding Zechariah.

 

[GodHeals]

Perhaps getting into discussions about how many will/won’t be saved, will it be a majority/minority etc. is the wrong way to look at it? We cannot possible answer such questions as we cannot possibly know how our Lord will judge each individual sinner. Suffice to say that there is a Heaven and there is a Hell.

All we can do is to strive to act in the manner that Jesus taught us to, and do what we can to spread this to others in the hope that they too can see the Light.

I do pray for my family and friends, but i suspect all of us can and should be worried about the salvation of our family members and friends… but how much should we be worried, since Jesus said not to worry about tomorrow (maybe wrong context)… I don’t know.

 

[paul_c]

Thank you for your post.
**
perfect contrition (sorrow with all your heart for offending God, not because of punishment)**

You mentioned perfect contrition. That can be made outside of confession for those who aren’t Christian or Catholic or might not have even heard about the need for baptism or repentance?

I’m sorry if I mislead anyone about the efficacy of perfect contrition: here’s what the catechism says about it:

VII. THE ACTS OF THE PENITENT

1450 "Penance requires . . . the sinner to endure all things willingly, be contrite of heart, confess with the lips, and practice complete humility and fruitful satisfaction."49

Contrition

1451 Among the penitent’s acts contrition occupies first place. Contrition is "sorrow of the soul and detestation for the sin committed, together with the resolution not to sin again."50

1452 When it arises from a love by which God is loved above all else, contrition is called “perfect” (contrition of charity). Such contrition remits venial sins; it also obtains forgiveness of mortal sins if it includes the firm resolution to have recourse to sacramental confession as soon as possible.51

1453 The contrition called “imperfect” (or “attrition”) is also a gift of God, a prompting of the Holy Spirit. It is born of the consideration of sin’s ugliness or the fear of eternal damnation and the other penalties threatening the sinner (contrition of fear). Such a stirring of conscience can initiate an interior process which, under the prompting of grace, will be brought to completion by sacramental absolution. By itself however, imperfect contrition cannot obtain the forgiveness of grave sins, but it disposes one to obtain forgiveness in the sacrament of Penance.52

1454 The reception of this sacrament ought to be prepared for by an examination of conscience made in the light of the Word of God. The passages best suited to this can be found in the Ten Commandments, the moral catechesis of the Gospels and the apostolic Letters, such as the Sermon on the Mount and the apostolic teachings.

So, perfect contrition will not absolve you of mortal sin UNLESS it includes the resolution to go to sacramental confession. Of course, if this is with your last dying breath, you may not be able to fulfill that resolution and you would think God in his mercy would take that into account. If you are invincibly ignorant fop the need to do any of this but lead a moral life, the church teaches:

VI. THE NECESSITY OF BAPTISM

1257 The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation.60 He also commands his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them.61 Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament.62 The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are “reborn of water and the Spirit.” God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.

1258 The Church has always held the firm conviction that those who suffer death for the sake of the faith without having received Baptism are baptized by their death for and with Christ. This Baptism of blood, like the desire for Baptism, brings about the fruits of Baptism without being a sacrament.

1259 For catechumens who die before their Baptism, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament.

1260 "Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery."63 Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.

1261 As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus’ tenderness toward children which caused him to say: "Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,"64 allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church’s call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism.

 

[Catholic_Jay]

“Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.-Matthew 7:13-14

Do these verses mean a “few” will be saved? It seems the Catholic Church says many will be saved and none are even pronounced to be in hell.

Thanks!
Brian

If you read the Catechism of the Catholic Church, which Pope John Paul II called “a sure norm for teaching the faith” it says this about salvation:

1861 Mortal sin is a radical possibility of human freedom, as is love itself. It results in the loss of charity and the privation of sanctifying grace, that is, of the state of grace. If it is not redeemed by repentance and God’s forgiveness, it causes exclusion from Christ’s kingdom and the eternal death of hell, for our freedom has the power to make choices for ever, with no turning back. However, although we can judge that an act is in itself a grave offense, we must entrust judgment of persons to the justice and mercy of God. -The Catechism of the Catholic Church

1446 Christ instituted the sacrament of Penance for all sinful members of his Church: above all for those who, since Baptism, have fallen into grave sin, and have thus lost their baptismal grace and wounded ecclesial communion. It is to them that the sacrament of Penance offers a new possibility to convert and to recover the grace of justification. The Fathers of the Church present this sacrament as "the second plank [of salvation] after the shipwreck which is the loss of grace."47 -The Catechism of the Catholic Church

And The Second Vatican Council stated this in it’s document Lumen Gentium (Solemnly Promulgated by Pope Paul VI on November 21, 1964):

1. This Sacred Council wishes to turn its attention firstly to the Catholic faithful. Basing itself upon Sacred Scripture and Tradition, it teaches that the Church, now sojourning on earth as an exile, is necessary for salvation. Christ, present to us in His Body, which is the Church, is the one Mediator and the unique way of salvation. In explicit terms He Himself affirmed the necessity of faith and baptism(124) and thereby affirmed also the necessity of the Church, for through baptism as through a door men enter the Church. Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved.

 

[Sirach2]

And The Second Vatican Council stated this in it’s document Lumen Gentium (Solemnly Promulgated by Pope Paul VI on November 21, 1964):
… Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved.

Note these underlined keywords. Please do not undo all the good that has been provided for this poster. One must have full knowledge of his actions to exclude him from salvation. Again, we know not whether God’s mercy will call such a soul to repentence at the moment of his death.

 

[jonathan_hili]

I don’t think it helps to quibble over numbers or guesses of majority/minority with regards to salvation.

I’ve always found something Peter Kreeft said helpful in understand Jesus’ words here. He said, that Christ is speaking in the voice of God, who is a loving father. If a father has ten children, to lose even one is one too many, and to save only nine is nine too few.

God bless.