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NonCatholic
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AMEN!
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stbruderklaus
Guest
Sadly, your opinion does not coincide with the historical record. If you read Luthers works, and many of the works of his contemporaries, he appeal time and again to peaceful solutions. He even submitted himself to Cardinal Cajetan early on, declaring that he would remain silent, so long as he also silenced the mouths that were preaching what later was denounced by the church as indulgence trafficing and bald-faced Pelagianism. Rome chose to fan the flames, and Rome started the killing in Germany. I’m not defending everything Luther said or did, but the Reformation he ushed in was centered on bringing a wayward and corrupt Church back to its Scriptural heritage. We can argue how successful he and his methods were, but that the historical fact as distilled from his writtings and those of his contemporaries.
And we might not want to point to moral decline as a sign of Reformation inadequacy… the Roman communion has a lot of baggage in that closet… and more being revealed every day.
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catholic_daddy
Guest
The spirit of that entire section of Romans 8 is one of celebration of the fact that our destiny is secure! It is so obvious. Some won’t allow themselves or others to join in the celebration. It grieves our Father’s heart.
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NonCatholic
Guest
The keys represent authority; which seems to be loose and bind sins from the verse 19 in Matthew 16. So moving along in the gospel of Matthew we come across the the same “loose and bind” phrase, but Jesus is now speaking to a crowd consisting of the Apostles and disciples; therefore we have the authority by giving the message of the good news to loose and bind.
For example, If one gave the correct presentation of the gospel to someone and they responded by saying “I am the captain of my own ship and I will not heed to your so-called god.” Could one tell that person you will die in your sin if you remain on that path? Yes.
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stbruderklaus
Guest
I think it’s important to remember that Christ gave command to all His disciples to forgive each other, if they expected to received forgiveness for their own sins… hence the phraseology of the Lord’s Prayer.
However, there is a particular sense in which the pastors/priests/bishops of the Church are commissioned to take the Gospel out to the world and shepherd the people given to their care. To the penetitent they declare the forgiveness of Christ-- to the impenitent, they declare the wrath of God which still abides on them. The Keys of the Kingdom are very important, because it is the Church through whom Christ moves in this world, granting His forgiveness to repenting sinners by faith in His saving work.
Cheers.
However, there is a particular sense in which the pastors/priests/bishops of the Church are commissioned to take the Gospel out to the world and shepherd the people given to their care. To the penetitent they declare the forgiveness of Christ-- to the impenitent, they declare the wrath of God which still abides on them. The Keys of the Kingdom are very important, because it is the Church through whom Christ moves in this world, granting His forgiveness to repenting sinners by faith in His saving work.
Cheers.
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CHESTERTONRULES
Guest
All the apostles were given the authority to loose and bind, but only Peter was given the keys.
Only Peter’s name was changed to Rock.
We should all agree on doctrine and be working together. The papacy makes this a true possibility.
Without a holder of the keys, doctrine will not be unifying.
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catholic_daddy
Guest
Peter’s name was not changed to Rock. Cephas means “small stone”. The Rock Jesus founded his church on was not Peter, but rather the confession Peter made about Jesus the Christ!
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CHESTERTONRULES
Guest
Cephas means rock. I think you are referring to Petros.
Why did Jesus change Peter’s name to Rock?
Why did Jesus give Peter the keys to the Kingdom?
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catholic_daddy
Guest
Jesus did not change his name. Nowhere does it say that. ’ Peter’ (petros) means little stone. The Rock (petra) that Jesus would build his church on was Himself and the confession necessary for salvation: “Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God”. You can’t build a church on a human!
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stbruderklaus
Guest
Funny-- St. Chrysostom, Doctor of the Church and revered for teaching the faith reliably and soundly by both eastern Orthodox and Romans, did a commentary and preaching series on precisely this topic.
Wanna guess what his reading of that text was? THAT IT WAS PETER’S CONFESSION UPON WHICH CHRIST WOULD BUILD HIS CHURCH, BECAUSE THE CHURCH COULD ONLY BE BUILT ON CHRIST, NEVER ON A MERE HUMAN BEING.
Uff da… the Church Fathers never supported this Roman novelty that Peter was the exclusive holder of the Keys… that’s just another Roman novelty and schismatic act that precipitated one of the great schisms, and eventually the second.
And by the way, not be cantankerous, but Papal control of the western church certainly didn’t guard it from error over the years. Once again, cf. with Pope Honorius, condemned by ecumenical council for teaching and promoting the heresy of monophysitism. No man is a guarantee for orthodoxy or truth-- only Christ, and the inspired Scriptures which are our surest foundation.
And, while we’re at it, those bishops who are supposed to derive their authority from the chair of Peter and be safeguards for faith and morals among the people-- how in the world could you condone their evil over the centuries, let alone their murderous rampages during the Reformation? Christ said it would be better for a man to have a millstone tied around his neck and be cast into the sea than to offend or cause to stumble one of His little children, and yet our Roman bishops have been complicit in the systematic horrors of child abuse in this country and abroad. Just because the established authority is in charge, would that be grounds for surrendering to it, even when it does evil?
OF COURSE NOT!! Even Romans who know their own dogma, assert at some point that their own ecclesiology is under the authority of the Holy Scriptures. Please don’t malign good Roman teaching with poor applications-- no bishop in the Roman church, or any other Christian church, is above the Holy Scriptures. They might claim a right to interpretation, but faithful Roman Christians never assume that their Church nor their Bishops are above the Scriptures.
Sorry to get wound up… that just got me going…
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catholic_daddy
Guest
Bro! That was masterful! (Especially since it supported what I said!!!
)
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CHESTERTONRULES
Guest
Jesus didn’t speak Greek.
Let’s see what Jesus actually said:
John 1
40 One of the two who heard John speak, and followed Him, was Andrew, Simon Peter’s brother. 41 He first found his own brother Simon, and said to him, “We have found the Messiah”. 42 And he brought him to Jesus.
Now when Jesus looked at him, He said, “You are Simon the son of Jonah. **You **shall be called Cephas” .
17Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. 18And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. 19I will give you**** the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”
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CHESTERTONRULES
Guest
The only way you will know if you are truly saved is to ENDURE.
You must endure by perseverence. Not even Paul was assured of his salvation.
Don’t give up:
Phil 3
10I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11and so, somehow, to attain to the resurrection from the dead. 12Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. 13Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, 14I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.
15All of us who are mature should take such a view of things.
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CHESTERTONRULES
Guest
Your opinion doesn’t fit with the words of Luther. Here was his comment after being criticized for adding the word “alone” to his German translation of Romans 3:28.
**
“If your Papist annoys you with the word (alone), tell him straightaway, Dr. Martin Luther will have it so: Papist and *** are one and the same thing. Whoever will not have my translation, let him give it the go-by: the devil’s thanks to him who censures it without my will and knowledge. Luther will have it so, and he is a doctor above all the doctors in Popedom.” (Amic. Discussion, I, 127, “The Facts About Luther” O’Hare, TAN Books, 1987, p.201).
What Charity!
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CHESTERTONRULES
Guest
Sin leads to death and separation from God.
Hebrews 10:26-27 “For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries.”
Hebrews 10:29 “How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by those who have spurned the Son of God, profaned the blood of the covenant by which they were sanctified, and outraged the Spirit?”
1 Chronicles 28:9 “If you seek Him, He will be found by you; but if you leave Him, He will cast you off forever”.
1 Timothy 1:19 “Keeping faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and their faith has been shipwrecked”.
John 15:1-2 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. He removes every branch in me that bears no fruit. Every branch that bears fruit he prunes to make it bear more fruit”.
John 15:4-6 “Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you, unless you abide in Me. I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me, and I in him, he bears much fruit; for apart from Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch, and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned”.
10"If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love;
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Katrina5
Guest
The thing that people don’t know and/or understand is this: If it weren’t for the Catholic Church, they wouldn’t even HAVE a Bible!
They don’t look deeply into the history of the early church, and these people want the glory, instead of giving it to God.
If they are “good preachers” they think they are speaking the truth. But the “worship service” is centered on the PREACHER.
Most people don’t understand different “denominations” because they don’t know where they originated.
They were all started by someone who disagreed with the Catholic Church, and splintered off into some new dogma.
And then splintered again and again, until there are 35,000 different “denominations”.
People disagree, it is in our nature. They denounce our faith because they don’t know enough about it.
Martin Luther was a Catholic monk trying to “reform” what he saw as evil. He didn’t reform anything, he started a new church, he broke the Apostolic succession.
Henry VIII broke off because the Pope wouldn’t grant him a divorce. He wanted a divorce because he mistakenly thought the wife was responsible for bearing a son or daughter. (We now know the male is the contributor of the Y Gene which will give forth a son to be heir to the throne.)
But the Anglican Church continues, based on this mistaken belief!
Calvin and Knox were politicians who were involved in getting rid of Queen Mary, not really any dogma there, other than predestination.
From there, we have Puritans, who wanted to strip the church of art and beauty.
Numerous churches were formed in the US based on the belief that they were living in the End-Times during the nineteenth Century-- Millerism, Church of the Brethren, Mormonism, and several others. These churches were very anti-Catholic, and believed that the Pope would be moving the Vatican to some place in Missouri and “Taking over” this country.
They border on the bizarre.
They all have one thing in common, and that is Jesus Christ, though a distorted view and relationship with Christ, since the Eucharist was lost along the way.
My hope is that we can pray enough for them to come back into the fold. They don’t know what they are missing.
They get hung up on our ‘rituals’ but they still have weddings, funerals, and so forth.
They are in Spiritual Freefall. They deserve the truth and the life, and they deserve our prayers.
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catholic_daddy
Guest
I have seen the many excellent attempts by others to explain to you how ALL the teachings of Paul and others harmonize. But you continue to embrace that spirit of fear and service by ‘the letter’ Paul spoke of in Rom. 8. That is your choice. We hold that the Scriptures do in fact teach that the saved endure to the end. Nowhere does it say that a saved person is cast away. You do not discern the spiritual growth Paul is longing for when he speaks personally, RATHER THAN some uncertain fight to keep God from rejecting his sonship some day. He said he was confident of the opposite. Luther may have added ‘alone’, but he didn’t create the several passages that say a man is justfied by faith apart from any works of the law. But you choose to ignore that. I wonder why? You DO know that the threat of eternal doom does not generate purity of life, don’t you? It does the opposite, my friend. And that you probably know personally. God has chosen a way foreign to the minds of men. It is the way of grace. Costly to Him, but incredibly free to those who will take it. You haven’t seen that grace yet, however. I pray you will. It is Amazing Grace. Your kind of ‘grace’ could never produce that hymn. Come to think of it, your kind of grace doesn’t produce many hymns at all. Ever wonder why? Look at my signature and tell me how God could possibly undo what Paul says has already happened to Christians. There is a lot to learn yet, isn’t there?
God Bless
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Benjamin8o8
Guest
I get it from God through man. you?
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Benjamin8o8
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The Roman Catholic Church is equate to the Catholic Church all the other saints wrote about. If it wasn
t you should at least point out a date when and where the Roman Church allegedly split off this "Catholic Church" you believe is the TRUE Church. If you fail to do this, then we are just going in circles in here. Catholic Daddy, With Questions, you, and other non-catholic members are just quoting from a Catholic Book (aka the Bible) to attempt to make a point. Lets be serious okay? The Roman Church establiched itself at 33AD in Jerursalem. The mission it carried out is 2009 years old. If you are denying that, then you are not following history (just like the Muslims) and are making no sense. Also, if the Catholic Church is not equate with the Roman Church, where is the Catholic Church then? Are you really going to tell me the gates of hell prevailed against it? Come on man, non-Catholic christians are off-shoots FROM the Roman Catholic Church, not from this “imaginary” Church you are talking about. So let us be honest here, if you claim what you claim, then reply to my topic with HISTORICAL evidence that the Catholic Church from 1st, 4th, 6th century is not the same Roman Church we now have.Remember: people lie, history dosen`t.
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Benjamin8o8
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WHAT? Jesus did NOT speak Greek He spoke in Aramaic. please brother with all due respect, get your facts straight. You claim that God can`t build a Church on a human, but can write a book through humens??? Why? Why can a book written by men be from God, but not a Church? Is it because we are picking and choosing what we WANT to believe?
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