A Historical Dare to Protestants

[guanophore]

Yeah, and “sola Scriptura” has a, well, Catholic, Latin sound to it. Do you think they ARE trying to communicate with us in our language?
I’m joking, of course, but I have always wondered why they use the Latin terminology, for something they cling to so tightly and in which they claim we are so “wrong.”
Anybody know for sure?

Theological debate in Europe at the time occurred in Latin. This was the official language of Christian Theology at the time.

The CAtholic Church is not “Latin”, only the Western Rite (Roman). This is the Rite that suffered the ecclesial abuses that triggered the rise of Protestantism. Most Protestants (as well as Catholics) are not aware that the rest of the Catholic Church was not in conflict with Europe.

 

[catholic_daddy]

Do you understand what a doctrine is in relation to the bible? Doctrines are the Word of God. Which Words of God are negotiable? There are none. So all doctrine pertaining to faith and morals is important and all are essential.

Is it that yo can’t understand me or that you don’t want to? I didn’t say that some scripture is unimportant. I have probably memorized more Scripture than you have read this month. I believe it is the inerrant Word of God. I believe you should obey it. What I an saying is that there are some doctrines that, if you are wrong on them, yo will end up in hell or you will end up misleading people in such a way that they will end up in hell. But how many actual spiritual gifts there are, for instance, is not one of them. Is that part clear to you? Forget about all the other stuff you want to focus on. Is THAT much clear?

 

[catholic_daddy]

Hit-and-run posts don’t work.
Ummm . . . still waiting for an answer . . .:compcoff:

Here is some of what the RCC has to say on the subject:

819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."274 Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,275 and are in themselves calls to “Catholic unity.”
*

 

[Protestant101]

I know I said a couple days ago that in Debate class in college, we were taught not to question the motives of the other side.
I think however, that if there really is going to be fair debate, things like the Pope, worshipping statues, praying to saints and Mary, and the Inquisition have to be kept out.
Debating IS NOT fighting dirty.
It is using well researched ideas and putting some thought behind your overly emotional hateful attacks on the Catholic Church.
Yes, I do wonder why people come to this site, and I found out today by asking, in person, a protestant who told me he comes here. He couldn’t answer with a logical answer.
I was being nice to him, because he seemed like a nice enough person.
But he sneered at my crucifix as he left my house.
There are some people who hate the church and they don’t even know why, they hate what they think is the Church. They are so steeped in this hatred that all we can do is pray for them because hatred is a horrible feeling.
As for me, I will not be getting into any more mud-slinging fights with people who are Willfully Ignorant.
Read, study, pray, then come to the table for “answers” to your questions.

Accusations of “fighting dirty” are quite common here when someone doesn’t like an answer that is truthful and honest; and such accusations are not “debate;” they are fighting dirty.

I don’t believe the skewered version of Catholic history, and no one here has proved anything to me about them being “the first church.” they have only claimed it; as do hundreds of other DENOMINATIONS.

I will say that I feel sorry for that Protestant who “sneered” at your crucifix.

 

[Benjamin8o8]

I don’t believe the skewered version of Catholic history, and no one here has proved anything to me about them being “the first church.” they have only claimed it; as do hundreds of other DENOMINATIONS.

Are you talking about the other denominations that are off-shoots from the Catholic Church?

 

[broski234]

I guess we have different points we are making. I was making the point that there are doctrines that are non-negotiables,

So if there are doctrines that are non-nogotiable, then that implies that there are doctrines that are negotiable! We, in the Catholic Church, do not believe any of God’s Word is negotiable. You said it not me!

 

[broski234]

I have probably memorized more Scripture than you have read this month.

Well I go to daily Mass where are get an OT reading, a responsorial psalm, and a Gospel reading. Just like the earliest writings of the Church says the earliest Christians did at Mass. I partake in a Catholic Scripture study of each book in the bible personally everyday. I read various books throughtout the week on scripture and the faith. And I lead an apologetics class once a week in my parish. So you still want to assume you memorize more Scripture than I have read this month? Woe to you, O’ foolish one!

 

[catholic_daddy]

So if there are doctrines that are non-nogotiable, then that implies that there are doctrines that are negotiable! We, in the Catholic Church, do not believe any of God’s Word is negotiable. You said it not me!

That’s OK. You don’t understand what I am saying. I pray that one day you will see how incredibly important those doctrines about Christ and the nature of salvation are.
It’s kind of like taking a cruise. I love them! There are all kinds of things you can and cannot do on a cruise, and they are all written down somewhere. But last night I dreamed we were going to go on one, and we got to the dock just before the cruise set sail. We had not yet purchased our ticket and wanted to do that quickly and get on board. Guess what? You can’t do that with cruises. You have to buy your ticket somewhat in advance. My good friend, I have news for you. All the regulations on cruising protocol are rules. But the rules about when you have to have your ticket are more essential…unless you’re not really counting on getting onboard the ship. Just a thought!

 

[ncgolf]

We had not yet purchased our ticket and wanted to do that quickly and get on board. Guess what? You can’t do that with cruises. You have to buy your ticket somewhat in advance. My good friend, I have news for you. All the regulations on cruising protocol are rules. But the rules about when you have to have your ticket are more essential…unless you’re not really counting on getting onboard the ship. Just a thought!

This is why I am confused by Protestant theology … faith or anything else is not a “chit” or “ticket” to heaven.

This is what Paul rails against. You cannot self-justify yourself before God by presenting anything … there is no “ticket” to heaven as if I purchased it with “works”, “merits” or money.

You indeed show up at the dock and present yourself to the Captain who in his infinite compassion and mercy for you allows you on board … and puts you in a suite.

 

[catholic_daddy]

This is why I am confused by Protestant theology … faith or anything else is not a “chit” or “ticket” to heaven.

This is what Paul rails against. You cannot self-justify yourself before God by presenting anything … there is no “ticket” to heaven as if I purchased it with “works”, “merits” or money.

You indeed show up at the dock and present yourself to the Captain who in his infinite compassion and mercy for you allows you on board … and puts you in a suite.

I’m sorry! I mixed metaphors and confused you. That illustration was ONLY about the fact that some instructions are more critical than others!

 

[ncgolf]

I’m sorry! I mixed metaphors and confused you. That illustration was ONLY about the fact that some instructions are more critical than others!

It’s not as bad as you think because it does raise the question of how does one get on the ship … getting on the ship is not a bad metaphor but how do you this is the question.

 

[catholic_daddy]

This is why I am confused by Protestant theology … faith or anything else is not a “chit” or “ticket” to heaven.

This is what Paul rails against. You cannot self-justify yourself before God by presenting anything … there is no “ticket” to heaven as if I purchased it with “works”, “merits” or money.

You indeed show up at the dock and present yourself to the Captain who in his infinite compassion and mercy for you allows you on board … and puts you in a suite.

You are right about the ticket…we can’t pay a PENNY for it. If we think we can then we have not yet exercised saving faith in the FINISHED work of the cross. God won’t give us a ‘ticket’ until we give up any hope of being worthy of it, and simply extend an empty open hand to receive it/Him!

 

[elvisman]

Here is some of what the RCC has to say on the subject:

819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."274 Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,275 and are in themselves calls to “Catholic unity.”
*

Much like your cafeteria-style faith, you have omitted many of the conditions and points made in the catechism regarding salvation outside the Church.
For instance:

811** "This (Catholic Church) is the**** sole Church of Christ****, which in the Creed we profess to be one, holy, catholic and apostolic.**

"Outside the Church there is no salvation" **
846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body: **
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336
847** This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church.**

---

(This is what is known as "invincible ignorance")

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

You are right about the ticket…we can’t pay a PENNY for it. If we think we can then we have not yet exercised saving faith in the FINISHED work of the cross. God won’t give us a ‘ticket’ until we give up any hope of being worthy of it, and simply extend an empty open hand to receive it/Him!

Oh mannn…what you said above is soooooo true!!! What a strong way to express that!!! Thank you!!! You have put a big smile on my face today!!!

I am now looking forward to Easter with great anticipation to exercise my saving faith in the FINISHED work of the cross, and extending my empty open hand, and my empty open mouth, and receive the risen and living Jesus and the saving grace of His sacrifice on the cross, through the strongest faith I’ve ever had in my life by eating His body and drinking His blood, as He commanded, for the first time!!!

Praise God!!!

God bless all!!!

 

[Katrina5]

Wrong. The “protest” in “Protestantism” was about political power, and secular in nature. Catholic Christianity comes into it, only to the extant the The Holy See is.

If you tracked scholastic literature on Early Christianity, you’d discover that the current thinking is radically different from that of the 1950s.

One major problem is that manuscripts that outline specific beliefs and practices, written by, and used by the Early Christians that were on the losing side isn’t available. (This is as true for Christians in Antioch, as it is for Christians in Kyoto.)

What is available, is what the winning side perceived as the teachings and practices of those on the losing side. Enough evidence exists to demonstrate that the understanding of the other side was faulty, more often than not.

jonathon

I don’t know you, but I wonder if you are “playing Devil’s Advocate”. If not, you are so far off base, and truly destructive. And just plain warped.
I will probably be thrown off of here, but I don’t think I can read much more of your outrageous ramblings.
You can’t hide behind a keyboard for long, and neither can I.

 

[catholic_daddy]

It’s not as bad as you think because it does raise the question of how does one get on the ship … getting on the ship is not a bad metaphor but how do you this is the question.

Yes. And if being made right with God so that our sins no longer separate us from Him (salvation), then the NT is clear. Look at these verses written by Paul:

“For by grace you have been saved, through faith, and that not of yourselves. It is the gift of God, not as a result of works, that no one cam boast.”

“Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved.”

“That if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and you believe in your heart that God has raised him from the dead, you shall be saved.”

“Therefor having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.”

“For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from any works of the law.”

And then of course the gospel of John says “For god so loved the world that He gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes on Him shall not perish but shall have everlasting life.”

And Jesus says this…hear it clearly: “He who hears my word and believes Him who sent Me HAS eternal life, and WILL NOT come into condemnation, but HAS PASSED from death unto life!”

HELLO!!!

 

[catholic_daddy]

**Much like your cafeteria-style faith, you have omitted many **of the conditions and points made in the catechism regarding salvation outside the Church.
For instance:

811** "This (Catholic Church) is the**** sole Church of Christ****, which in the Creed we profess to be one, holy, catholic and apostolic.**

"Outside the Church there is no salvation" **
846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body: **
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336
847** This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ** and his Church.

---

(This is what is known as "invincible ignorance")

The church writings say what they say. We are not the least concerned about how you wish to understand it. Read the verses posted on salvation and make sure you have done what Paul and Jesus have clearly said…
God Bless!

 

[catholic_daddy]

Oh mannn…what you said above is soooooo true!!! What a strong way to express that!!! Thank you!!! You have put a big smile on my face today!!!

I am now looking forward to Easter with great anticipation to exercise my saving faith in the FINISHED work of the cross, and extending my empty open hand, and my empty open mouth, and receive the risen and living Jesus and the saving grace of His sacrifice on the cross, through the strongest faith I’ve ever had in my life by eating His body and drinking His blood, as He commanded, for the first time!!!

Praise God!!!

God bless all!!!

Yes! And as those who have been born into His eternal family, we celebrate Easter every day, for we are already risen in Him! Look at the verse in my signature below and also Romans chapters 6-8

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

Yes! And as those who have been born into His eternal family, we celebrate Easter every day, for we are already risen in Him! Look at the verse in my signature below and also Romans chapters 6-8

Amen my friend!!! Catholics celebrate The Crucified, Risen, Jesus who is our High Priest everyday too…in Church and out!!!

Love your quote!!

God bless all!!!

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

Yes! And as those who have been born into His eternal family, we celebrate Easter every day, for we are already risen in Him! Look at the verse in my signature below and also Romans chapters 6-8

Amen my friend!!! Catholics celebrate The Crucified, Risen, Jesus who is our High Priest everyday too…in Church!!!

Love your quote!!

God bless all!!!