A Historical Dare to Protestants

[Katrina5]

Theological debate in Europe at the time occurred in Latin. This was the official language of Christian Theology at the time.

The CAtholic Church is not “Latin”, only the Western Rite (Roman). This is the Rite that suffered the ecclesial abuses that triggered the rise of Protestantism. Most Protestants (as well as Catholics) are not aware that the rest of the Catholic Church was not in conflict with Europe.

Good answer! I’m a Cradle Catholic Baby Boomer who can slips into a know-it-all persona from time to time…but obviously I don’t!
That’s why I enjoy the CAF. My post was somewhat tongue in cheek, but there is no emoticon for that…is there?

 

[Katrina5]

Yes. And if being made right with God so that our sins no longer separate us from Him (salvation), then the NT is clear. Look at these verses written by Paul:

“For by grace you have been saved, through faith, and that not of yourselves. It is the gift of God, not as a result of works, that no one cam boast.”

“Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved.”

“That if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and you believe in your heart that God has raised him from the dead, you shall be saved.”

“Therefor having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.”

“For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from any works of the law.”

And then of course the gospel of John says “For god so loved the world that He gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes on Him shall not perish but shall have everlasting life.”

And Jesus says this…hear it clearly: “He who hears my word and believes Him who sent Me HAS eternal life, and WILL NOT come into condemnation, but HAS PASSED from death unto life!”

HELLO!!!

Question for you: Why did Jesus curse the fig tree? A tree is known by its fruits, so we must ‘go and sin no more’.
I don’t understand why this isn’t taken as literally as the “faith alone” quotes.
In Matthew 25: 31-46, Jesus describes all the “works” we must do. The last two verses say, “Amen I say to you, what you did not do for one these least ones, you did not do for me. And these will go off to eternal punshment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
But I urge you to read the entire quote, since He is very specific. We call them the Corporal Works of Mercy.

 

[catholic_daddy]

Amen my friend!!! Catholics celebrate The Crucified, Risen, Jesus who is our High Priest everyday too…in Church and out!!!

Love your quote!!

God bless all!!!

You know, there are the few that do, and who understand, and then there are the many who…well…not so much!

Look at this amazingly accurate prophecy from the 19th Century–

"A religion of externals is attractive to the unrenewed heart. The pomp and ceremony of the Catholic worship have a seductive, bewitching power by which many are deceived; and they come to look upon the Roman Church as the very gate of Heaven. None are proof against her influence but those who have planted their feet firmly upon the foundation of truth, and whose hearts are renewed by the Spirit of God. Thousands who have not an experimental knowledge of Christ will be swept into this deception. 384A form of godliness without the power is just what they desire. The Roman Catholic feels at liberty to sin, because the church claims the right to pardon. To him who loves self-indulgence, it is more pleasing to confess to a fellow-mortal than to open the soul to God. It is more palatable to human nature to do penance than to renounce sin. It is easier to mortify the flesh by sackcloth and nettles and galling chains than to crucify fleshly lusts. Heavy is the yoke which the carnal heart is willing to bear rather than bow to the yoke of Christ. The Review and Herald, November 11, 1890

 

[elvisman]

The church writings say what they say. We are not the least concerned about how you wish to understand it. Read the verses posted on salvation and make sure you have done what Paul and Jesus have clearly said…
God Bless!

**How charitable of you. REALLY shows how much you care about your fellow Christians. Boy, when your back is up against the wall and you have nothing of substance to come back with - this is the best you can do?

Done? I thought you don’t have to DO anything to be a good Protestant. More inconsistency . . .

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

You know, there are the few that do, and who understand, and then there are the many who…well…not so much!

The few, the proud, the…well…not the marines in this case…although they are not excluded to participate by any means.

You probably remember the scripture about the wide road that leads to destruction and the many who enter, and the narrow road that leads to life and the few who enter…let’s pray that the few have great increases in their numbers!!

Look at this amazingly accurate prophecy from the 19th Century–

"A religion of externals is attractive to the unrenewed heart. The pomp and ceremony of the Catholic worship have a seductive, bewitching power by which many are deceived; and they come to look upon the Roman Church as the very gate of Heaven. None are proof against her influence but those who have planted their feet firmly upon the foundation of truth, and whose hearts are renewed by the Spirit of God. Thousands who have not an experimental knowledge of Christ will be swept into this deception. 384A form of godliness without the power is just what they desire. The Roman Catholic feels at liberty to sin, because the church claims the right to pardon. To him who loves self-indulgence, it is more pleasing to confess to a fellow-mortal than to open the soul to God. It is more palatable to human nature to do penance than to renounce sin. It is easier to mortify the flesh by sackcloth and nettles and galling chains than to crucify fleshly lusts. Heavy is the yoke which the carnal heart is willing to bear rather than bow to the yoke of Christ. The Review and Herald, November 11, 1890

I once followed and believed that prophetess…I do not now…I heeded the admonishment to not hearken to false prophets.

If you believe her to be accurate, then you should follow her…but it will take more faith than what you have referred to in your quotes.

God bless all!!!

 

[catholic_daddy]

The few, the proud, the…well…not the marines in this case…although they are not excluded to participate by any means.

You probably remember the scripture about the wide road that leads to destruction and the many who enter, and the narrow road that leads to life and the few who enter…let’s pray that the few have great increases in their numbers!!

I once followed and believed that prophetess…I do not now…I heeded the admonishment to not hearken to false prophets.

If you believe her to be accurate, then you should follow her…but it will take more faith than what you have referred to in your quotes.

God bless all!!!

I had never heard of her until yesterday, and I don’t tend to put much stock in modern “prophecies”, but that one was profoundly insightful.

 

[catholic_daddy]

How charitable of you. REALLY shows how much you care about your fellow Christians. Boy, when your back is up against the wall and you have nothing of substance to come back with - this is the *best *you can do?

Done? I thought you don’t have to DO anything to be a good Protestant. More inconsistency . . .

I wasn’t talking about fellow Christians. I was talking only about those who would embrace fallacious notions.

 

[catholic_daddy]

Question for you: Why did Jesus curse the fig tree? A tree is known by its fruits, so we must ‘go and sin no more’.
I don’t understand why this isn’t taken as literally as the “faith alone” quotes.
In Matthew 25: 31-46, Jesus describes all the “works” we must do. The last two verses say, “Amen I say to you, what you did not do for one these least ones, you did not do for me. And these will go off to eternal punshment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
But I urge you to read the entire quote, since He is very specific. We call them the Corporal Works of Mercy.

The fig tree was a symbol of Israel. They were under the Law. Christians are not. The Law said, “Do this or else!”. It never produced righteousness. GRACE says, "I will give you a new heart and a new nature and you will have both the DESIRE and the POWER to do what I ask. HUGE difference. Most Roman Catholics don’t get that.

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

I had never heard of her until yesterday, and I don’t tend to put much stock in modern “prophecies”, but that one was profoundly insightful.

Brother, if you think that is insightful, I’d be more than happy to take up a collection for you to get a new pair of spectacles!

God bless all!!!

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

The fig tree was a symbol of Israel. They were under the Law. Christians are not. The Law said, “Do this or else!”. It never produced righteousness. GRACE says, "I will give you a new heart and a new nature and you will have both the DESIRE and the POWER to do what I ask. HUGE difference. Most Roman Catholics don’t get that.

The Roman Catholics I know “get that”.

I’d be curious as to how you concluded that “Most” don’t get that. That’s an outlandish statement.

Do you personally know “Most” Roman Catholics, or did you come across some study some where?

God bless all!!!

 

[guanophore]

What I an saying is that there are some doctrines that, if you are wrong on them, yo will end up in hell or you will end up misleading people in such a way that they will end up in hell.

This is very true, which is why it is so important to hold fast to the Apostles’ teaching, and not get led astray by modern and novel renditions of scriptural meanings.

However, what does this have to do with the topic? If you want to discuss the difference between essential and non-essential doctrine, I think you should strart a new thread.

My good friend, I have news for you. All the regulations on cruising protocol are rules. But the rules about when you have to have your ticket are more essential…unless you’re not really counting on getting onboard the ship. Just a thought!

What an interesting dream. I wonder what that is saying about the present state of your soul?

I agree with you about “rules”. So does the Catholic Church. Preserved are “all that Jesus began to do and to teach until He was taken up”. There are some elements that are more critical than others, but I think it is not a discussion that belongs to this thread, any more than the present unprepared state of your soul.

 

[catholic_daddy]

Brother, if you think that is insightful, I’d be more than happy to take up a collection for you to get a new pair of spectacles!

God bless all!!!

So none of that rings true to you?

 

[catholic_daddy]

This is very true, which is why it is so important to hold fast to the Apostles’ teaching, and not get led astray by modern and novel renditions of scriptural meanings.

However, what does this have to do with the topic? If you want to discuss the difference between essential and non-essential doctrine, I think you should strart a new thread.

What an interesting dream. I wonder what that is saying about the present state of your soul?

I agree with you about “rules”. So does the Catholic Church. Preserved are “all that Jesus began to do and to teach until He was taken up”. There are some elements that are more critical than others, but I think it is not a discussion that belongs to this thread, any more than the present unprepared state of your soul.

“It is well, it is well with my soul!”

 

[catholic_daddy]

The Roman Catholics I know “get that”.

I’d be curious as to how you concluded that “Most” don’t get that. That’s an outlandish statement.

Do you personally know “Most” Roman Catholics, or did you come across some study some where?

God bless all!!!

I’ve talked to a LOT in the last 30 yrs. But you didn’t answer my question…did any of that ring true to you?

 

[elvisman]

I wasn’t talking about fellow Christians. I was talking only about those who would embrace fallacious notions.

Such as, for example?

 

[distracted]

The fig tree was a symbol of Israel. They were under the Law. Christians are not. The Law said, “Do this or else!”. It never produced righteousness. GRACE says, "I will give you a new heart and a new nature and you will have both the DESIRE and the POWER to do what I ask. HUGE difference. Most Roman Catholics don’t get that.

not true at all…

I didn’t get it UNTIL i was Catholic… (I’ve always been Catholic but what i mean is, i didn’t get it until i retunred, whole-heartedly to the Church and fully catechized myself… Most Catholics from my generation were NOT catechized well… ) Otherwise, i would never have “left” the Church (though i never left officially… not even…)

 

[catholic_daddy]

not true at all…

I didn’t get it UNTIL i was Catholic… (I’ve always been Catholic but what i mean is, i didn’t get it until i retunred, whole-heartedly to the Church and fully catechized myself… Most Catholics from my generation were NOT catechized well… ) Otherwise, i would never have “left” the Church (though i never left officially… not even…)

Interesting. The Christians I know talk about how they were saved and the momentous event when they came out of darkness into the light. Its huge for Paul and Jesus, but seems to be a nonevent for most RC’s. Wonder why?

 

[Matariel]

Interesting. The Christians I know talk about how they were saved and the momentous event when they came out of darkness into the light. Its huge for Paul and Jesus, but seems to be a non-event for most RC’s. Wonder why?

It’s not a non-event. It’s just that, for Catholics, every opportunity can potentially be a conversion. A Catholic has a conversion every time he/she chooses God over self. It’s all about living for God, and in a way pleasing to Him. Faith without works (a lifestyle of daily conversion to God) is dead.

Catholics do not see conversion as a once-and-for-all event. Catholics must abide and remain in God’s grace, and not remove themselves from it.

This is the way Christ’s Catholic Church has understood this since her very beginning, 2,000 years ago.

 

[catholic_daddy]

It’s not a non-event. It’s just that, for Catholics, every opportunity can potentially be a conversion. A Catholic has a conversion every time he/she chooses God over self. It’s all about living for God, and in a way pleasing to Him. Faith without works (a lifestyle of daily conversion to God) is dead.

Catholics do not see conversion as a once-and-for-all event. Catholics must abide and remain in God’s grace, and not remove themselves from it.

This is the way Christ’s Catholic Church has understood this since her very beginning, 2,000 years ago.

I’m sorry, but I’m not buying that.

 

[Protestant101]

This is why I am confused by Protestant theology … faith or anything else is not a “chit” or “ticket” to heaven.

This is what Paul rails against. You cannot self-justify yourself before God by presenting anything … there is no “ticket” to heaven as if I purchased it with “works”, “merits” or money.

You indeed show up at the dock and present yourself to the Captain who in his infinite compassion and mercy for you allows you on board … and puts you in a suite.

I have been studying something about computer science stuff called TCP/IP protocol. One of the coolest things about it, I found, was how it can perform it’s appointed functions, via any kind of computer or hardware. I tend to think of Jesus as similar in nature; He can reach all kinds in all places/churches. Sometimes, the history thing has to just stop there.