A Historical Dare to Protestants

[catholic_daddy]

But it was God’s will to build a church. And it is God’s will that we all be members of His Church.

Find His Church and you find God.

And of course everyone who has received the new life and the Holy Spirit thrugh faith in Christ is a member of the universal Church. You could not be saved without being a part of Christ’s bride and a member of His Body.

 

[Benjamin8o8]

I would never want to be a part of a sect that would not teach the whole, complete, 100% truth. If they teach some error, how can I trust them? How do I know what teaching is right? How could they ever teach me about moral issues not covered in the Bible? It’s way to risky to go to splintered, divided (and you know St. Paul condemns division among Christians) man-made sects that are a sea of contradictions of doctrines and private interpretations.

It’s much safer to stick with the 2,000-year-old Church founded by Christ which He promised would not fail-- the Catholic Church, founded upon St. Peter and the Apostles. That’s why I am joining the Catholic Church this Easter.

I agree with you. You know what else I realized? All of these non-catholic members in this thread are attacking the Catholic Church, but none of them are defending their man-made sects, because they know we can and will reveal the history of their true denomination.

 

[ncgolf]

There were and are many population groups who by Bible definition can be counted as “God’s children.”

Are not all of us God’s children, believers or not … I do not think belonging to a population group is the determining factor in being a child of God or not.

This is enough history for me.

The historical roots of the Church, does bring some into at least considering Catholicism.

The OP’s challenge was to look at your own faith and trace it’s historical roots as far back as you could. If it does anything it allows one to present one’s own faith in terms of its history.

I looked at your profile … and it says you are Adventist … how historically do Adventists trace their roots? Does Adventism (if that is correct) use a historical perspective?

 

[Benjamin8o8]

And of course everyone who has received the new life and the Holy Spirit thrugh faith in Christ is a member of the universal Church. You could not be saved without being a part of Christ’s bride and a member of His Body.

you are not a member of His Body, if you are not Catholic (Universal) then you`re either following the book which the Catholics compiled (the Bible) by your own terms of interpretations, or you are part of a body that a random man couple of hundred years ago HIMSELF established (aka a christian sect, or an off-shoot). Or even worse, maybe you yourself started a new church and claim you are part of the Body which Jesus build Peter upon

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

The problem I keep running into is that while Paul talks over and over about believers having BEEN saved (past perfect tense) and having been reconciled to God, I don’t find many Catholics who know that any such thing has happened to them. They don’t seem to have what the hearers of Paul had and what many that I know havw.

Who and where are all these Catholics you find and know to whom you refer so often in your posts?

Anyway…I know that that has happened to me…and I thank and praise God daily for that!!! Mercy, grace, forgiveness, grace, reconciliation, grace, virutuous living, garce, and salvation, GRACE!!! It is everywhere I turn in the Catholic Church!!! Praise God!!!

I also know that if I do not watch and pray, that I will find myself in the situation described so accurately in 2 Peter 2:22.

God bless all!!!

 

[Benjamin8o8]

Awww click your heals together three times and repeat that and …well, it still won’t be true.

very cute, but if you disagree why don`t you claim your church is the apostolic church and we can compare the history of our churches. I made a new thread for this reason (The History of The Roman Catholic Church) Go reply if you dare and then we can simply see without beating around the bush to see which church, and I mean exactly which church can trace back to the apostles.

 

[SD_Catholic]

The problem I keep running into is that while Paul talks over and over about believers having BEEN saved (past perfect tense) and having been reconciled to God, I don’t find many Catholics who know that any such thing has happened to them. They don’t seem to have what the hearers of Paul had and what many that I know havw.

We believe that we were saved by Jesus’s death on the cross, that we are** being** saved each moment we hold to the truths that he revealed to us, and we have the hope that we will be saved at the moment of our death… to us Catholics it’s a process… many Catholics have had that life changing experience that you refer to, but they also realize that their ticket wasn’t given to them yet. I doubt all Protestants have had that once in a lifetime experience that they know was their ticket to heaven… we’ve heard of many stories of people faking that experience to fit in or doing multiple altar calls searching for that feeling. Some get it some don’t… not having a once in a lifetime experience doesn’t disqualify you from God’s gift.

SD

 

[Sabbath_Keeper]

very cute, but if you disagree why don`t you claim your church is the apostolic church and we can compare the history of our churches. I made a new thread for this reason (The History of The Roman Catholic Church) Go reply if you dare and then we can simply see without beating around the bush to see which church, and I mean exactly which church can trace back to the apostles.

Actually Pat if you want to get down to brass tacks. All churches can trace their lineage back to the first church. You see Luther was an ordaned priest, being such he was in the Apostalic linage and when he passed on his knowledge it continued, even when the splits continued to occur. So, logically all the “christian” churches trace back through the CC and into the first Church from there. (Not admitting that the RCC is the one and only Church, just making a point.)

And another point, if these other churches had no lineage back to the first church, why is it that the Pope recognises them as “Daughters”. This suggests some sort of parenthood and being such there has to be a lineage involved.

 

[ncgolf]

The problem I keep running into is that while Paul talks over and over about believers having BEEN saved (past perfect tense) and having been reconciled to God, I don’t find many Catholics who know that any such thing has happened to them. They don’t seem to have what the hearers of Paul had and what many that I know havw.

daddy … this is off topic for this thread but I could start another on this topic … maybe …“Paul and Salvation … 2 views?” … I would like to use your comment as the beginning.

 

[Benjamin8o8]

Actually Pat if you want to get down to brass tacks. All churches can trace their lineage back to the first church. You see Luther was an ordaned priest, being such he was in the Apostalic linage and when he passed on his knowledge it continued, even when the splits continued to occur. So, logically all the “christian” churches trace back through the CC and into the first Church from there. (Not admitting that the RCC is the one and only Church, just making a point.)

you just addmited the RCC is the Church founded by Christ, but in the same time you said all churches that came AFTER, yes AFTER, the RCC can trace their linage back? Well…I cant comprehend how you can make sense into that sentence. We have Babptists, Methodists, Cavinists, Adventists, and 30 thousand more sects with different interpretation of scripture. Also different doctrines and beliefs. So how could it possibly be true that ALL CHURCH can be traced back to the linnage of the Holy Apostles and their sacred teachings? If you dont avoid history like protestants do, you will clearly see all other churches can be traced back to the Roman Catholic Church not to the apostles. If what I just said is wrong, then prove me otherwise.

Only because Luther was a Catholic Priest dosen`t mean he can form a new Church, the bible maks it clear, Jesus established a Church (singular) not Churches (plural). You see the difference brother?

 

[Sabbath_Keeper]

you just addmited the RCC is the Church founded by Christ, but in the same time you said all churches that came AFTER, yes AFTER, the RCC can trace their linage back? Well…I cant comprehend how you can make sense into that sentence. We have Babptists, Methodists, Cavinists, Adventists, and 30 thousand more sects with different interpretation of scripture. Also different doctrines and beliefs. So how could it possibly be true that ALL CHURCH can be traced back to the linnage of the Holy Apostles and their sacred teachings? If you dont avoid history like protestants do, you will clearly see all other churches can be traced back to the Roman Catholic Church not to the apostles. If what I just said is wrong, then prove me otherwise.

Only because Luther was a Catholic Priest dosen`t mean he can form a new Church, the bible maks it clear, Jesus established a Church (singular) not Churches (plural). You see the difference brother?

Firstly, I never admitted anything. Read my post again.

Secondly, Logic will show that if the protestants admit that they came out of the RCC and the RCC also recognises this then it folloows that the linage has to be the same. Each, protestants and RCC, can trace back to the First Church. Again this is not admitting that the RCC was the first Church and only Church.

Thirdly, Again when the RCC calls the protestant churches it’s daughters it therefore admits the lineage is there. And itself supports the idea that the protestant churches can lay claim, as well as the RCC, to connection with the First Church that Christ established.

As to Luther starting his own church, he did nothing of the kind. What he did was point out error and when he was castigated for doing so he walked the path that God lead him down inspite of the human agents that stood against him.

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

I’ve talked to a LOT in the last 30 yrs. But you didn’t answer my question…did any of that ring true to you?

I’ve talked with a lot of Catholics too in my lifetime, but could come nowhere close to personally knowing what is the behavior, and what is in the heart of “Most” or “Many” of the approximately 1,100,000,000 (that’s 1.1 Billion) Catholics in the world (news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/4243727.stm)).

You are an amazing person to have accomplished that in just 30 years. I have to respect you very much, because no mere mortal could accomplish that.

Anyway…to answer your question. For much of my life, everything that Ellen G. White wrote rang true to me and I believed everything she wrote to be inspired by God. It formed most of what I thought, believed, preached, and taught about Catholicism.

But then about 5 years ago, and with the little bit of wisdom I’ve accrued over the years, I thought, "Hey, wouldn’t it be a good idea to find out what the Catholic Church teaches, from the Catholic Chruch itself, and not from Ellen White, Doug Batchelor, Jimmy Swaggart, Pastor Hagee, my own wild imaginings…and the list could go on and on and on.

So yes, what she wrote about Catholicism rang very true to me as I looked at the priests in their vestments, and the ceremony and order of the Mass, and everything the Catholics did. Everything I posted earlier was very true to me in my assessment, sitting outside of The Church and observing.

But then I started trying to understand Catholicism just to see if they could make a “case” for their beliefs and what they did.

And they can, and they do, and I realized that so much of what I thought Catholics did and believed, which I thought was anti-God, anit-Christ, was because of my error, ignorance, and lack of understanding regarding what The Catholic Church teaches.

What once rang true to me was erroneous, because of my ignorance…NOT because the Catholic Church was wrong or evil.

The key is going back and reading the works of the earliest Christians in the 1st and 2nd centuries. What they write and teach is in sync with The Catholic Church today, not the many protestant churches. Which is not to say that the protesant churches have not retained truth from the Catholic Church, merely that the protestant churches are not fully in sync with the primative, early, Christian Church.

But the Catholic Church is. That conclusion, at least for me, was the most painful conclusion to arrive at in my life. It is now my greatest blessing!!

I hope that answers your question CD.

God bless all!!!

 

[catholic_daddy]

There were and are many population groups who by Bible definition can be counted as “God’s children.” Many of them have nothing to do with “Rome has spoken.” This is enough history for me.

You are exactly correct on that. Just as with the proud Jews of Jesus’ day who thought they were ‘children of Abraham’ because they could trace their lineage or prove the absence of foreskin, yet were far away from the kingdom, so today only and all those who hold to the Christ and the gospel of the Scriptures are part of His church. Those who say otherwise do so out of blind allegiance and/or an attempt to vainly protect a vested interest that does not exist

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

Actually Pat if you want to get down to brass tacks. All churches can trace their lineage back to the first church. You see Luther was an ordaned priest, being such he was in the Apostalic linage and when he passed on his knowledge it continued, even when the splits continued to occur. So, logically all the “christian” churches trace back through the CC and into the first Church from there. (Not admitting that the RCC is the one and only Church, just making a point.)

Hi Sabbath Keeper,

I haven’t talked with you in a while…nice to see you!!

You were responding to Benjanmin8o8, but it appears that you are addressing me, so I’ll talk with you!

Martin Luther was an ordained priest. Priests have certain authority given to them by God, through His grace, and through the Bishops laying hands on them. Bishops have the authority to ordain priests.

Priests do not have the authority to ordain priests. Therefore, when Luther left the church, he did not have the authority to ordain anyone to the ministry of the priesthood. At that point in time he ended any Apostolic Succession he was part of when he was in communion with The Church. I will assume that you know the New Testament books and scriptures that outline the authority of The Church, because SDAs follow the formula similarly…even though they are out of the direct line of Apostolic Succession.

It is the laying on of hands by ordained Bishops, when ordaining other Bishops, which passes on Apostolic lineage, not just passing on one’s knowledge as in the case of Luther. And this lineage is preserved and recorded for all ordained Bishops from our present day back to Peter and the other Apostles.

And another point, if these other churches had no lineage back to the first church, why is it that the Pope recognises them as “Daughters”. This suggests some sort of parenthood and being such there has to be a lineage involved.

The Church recognizes those other churches not in communion with The Church as “Daughters”, family, of The Church who perform valid Christian baptisms. A valid baptism is one that uses water and baptizes in the Name of The Father, and of The Son, and of The Holy Spirit.

It is when a person is validly baptized that he or she becomes a member of The Church, the One True Church, even if they are not in full communion with The Church.

The Church recognizes that and we should all pray to be united in full communion!

God bless all!!!

 

[elvisman]

I wasn’t talking about fellow Christians. I was talking only about those who would embrace fallacious notions.

Such as, for example?

Ever going to answer my question, Catholic Daddy? Or are you going to continue your hit-and-run tactics as usual.
You have failed to answer this post and more on other threads.

 

[catholic_daddy]

you are not a member of His Body, if you are not Catholic (Universal) then you`re either following the book which the Catholics compiled (the Bible) by your own terms of interpretations, or you are part of a body that a random man couple of hundred years ago HIMSELF established (aka a christian sect, or an off-shoot). Or even worse, maybe you yourself started a new church and claim you are part of the Body which Jesus build Peter upon

You need to read your own Church’s documents on that subject. The RCC recognizes that there are many Christians who are not Roman Catholic. And by definition, you cannot be a Christian unless you are part of Christ’s Universal Church. You are waaaayyy off base and living in a fantasy world that conforms neither to Scripture nor reality.

 

[catholic_daddy]

Ever going to answer my question, Catholic Daddy? Or are you going to continue your hit-and-run tactics as usual.
You have failed to answer this post and more on other threads.

So many posts, so little time! Some posts are simply not high priority. I never fear answering a post. Just have to be a good steward of the time God gives me! The people I was referring to are anyone who embraces teaching which cannot be supported in God’s Word. Calling Bible reading a sin, for instance, which the RCC did for about 900 years, until they suddenly had a new revelation. Dig yourself out of that one while I attend to a few other posts.

 

[allhers]

So many posts, so little time! Some posts are simply not high priority. I never fear answering a post. Just have to be a good steward of the time God gives me! The people I was referring to are anyone who embraces teaching which cannot be supported in God’s Word. Calling Bible reading a sin, for instance, which the RCC did for about 900 years, until they suddenly had a new revelation. Dig yourself out of that one while I attend to a few other posts.

May I ask where you pick up the misconceptions you say here?
Why do you call yourself catholic daddy when it is so obvious that you do not like what you perceive that the Church teaches?

 

[ncgolf]

You are exactly correct on that. Just as with the proud Jews of Jesus’ day who thought they were ‘children of Abraham’ because they could trace their lineage or prove the absence of foreskin, yet were far away from the kingdom, so today only and all those who hold to the Christ and the gospel of the Scriptures are part of His church.

It was not the law that doomed them … Christ himself observed all the traditions of a faithful Jew, including circumcision. You are not saying Christ particpated in empty rituals are you? They had a purpose … but not the purpose of the Jews were heaping on them.

There were not far away from the kingdom because of the rituals but why they were observing them … it was inside their heart that was corrupting them … not the law.

What Jesus was pointing out was the mere observance of the ritual does not make you righteous. There is no outward sign I can see on your body or in your actions that make you righteous.

Reading the Scriptures does not make you righteous before God.

The amount of Scripture you can recite does not make you righteous before God.

Observing the 10 commandments does not make you righteous before God.

Those who say otherwise do so out of blind allegiance and/or an attempt to vainly protect a vested interest that does not exist

This is true for Catholics and nonCatholics.

 

[catholic_daddy]

Who and where are all these Catholics you find and know to whom you refer so often in your posts?

Anyway…I know that that has happened to me…and I thank and praise God daily for that!!! Mercy, grace, forgiveness, grace, reconciliation, grace, virutuous living, garce, and salvation, GRACE!!! It is everywhere I turn in the Catholic Church!!! Praise God!!!

I also know that if I do not watch and pray, that I will find myself in the situation described so accurately in 2 Peter 2:22.

God bless all!!!

I would say almost all the people who post here as RC, if you check what they say when that topic comes up, they are attempting to explain having “been saved” away.
Regarding your fear of being caught in that II Peter 2 situation? Don’t ever sing the hymn, “Blessed Assurance”, because you have none. You need to take a Sharpie and mark through all those verses where Jesus and Paul give us assurance, like the last ten verses of Rom 8. Or you could ask someone how to know for sure that if you die today or tomorrow or fifty years from now, you will be with Jesus in Paradise.