A Historical Dare to Protestants

[Protestant101]

As someone else commented on another thread, you start a discussion on the economic crisis and you end arguing whether Jennifer Aniston should get back with Brad Pitt

LOL, that is funny!!

 

[catholic_daddy]

I believe in innocent Christians. God knows who would have chosen Him if they had the chance. I don’t think that only those who have been offered the Good News are capable of making it into heaven. I believe God is so infinitely merciful that even people who have been misled about God’s truth can make it to heaven, because it’s not necessarily their fault that they were lied to about Christianity. Personally, I feel it is Christians, with all of their understanding of who God really is, who face the biggest challenges in terms of salvation. Afterall, Jesus said “to whom much is given, much will be expected.”

That’s well put. The only thing we can do is look to what God’s word says and leave the rest to Him. Do you know for sure if you died tonight you would go to heaven? God wants you to know.

 

[Ross09]

That’s well put. The only thing we can do is look to what God’s word says and leave the rest to Him. Do you know for sure if you died tonight you would go to heaven? God wants you to know.

I’m fairly certain if I died tonight I would go to heaven eventually because I made a good Confession two weeks ago and haven’t fallen into mortal sin since…seeing as how I believe in Purgatory and all, I GUARANTEE you I am going there first.

Your statement that God wants me to know whether or not I’m going to heaven…? I’m guessing you have a scriptural basis for this idea.

 

[benedictgal]

The Roman Church is CATHOLIC. And the Catholic Church predates all other divisions. It also predates the NT. So do simple math, what Church existed BEFORE the Bible and AFTER Jesus asceneded into Heaven? The Catholic Church. The Universal Body of Christ. No protestant can ever deny that. This is what makes the Roman Church the truth. History of The Church refutes everything else that came after it.

God Bless.

That is an excellent observation. The Church did not come out of the Bible; the Bible sprang forth from the Church. The first accounts of the Gospel were not written prior to Jesus’ Ascension, they were written afterwards. Sts. Matthew and John were there throughout Jesus’ ministry, passion, death and resurrection. St. Mark’s Gospel comes from St. Peter’s memoirs. St. Luke takes his account from the Bleseed Mother and others. In fact, the Bible, as we know it, did not come into existence until the reign of Constantine.

How can Protestants deny the statement that Jesus made, “You are Peter and on this Rock I will build my Church.” Even the early Church Fathers said that where there is Peter, there is the Catholic Church, and this remark was made in the 2nd century.

 

[benedictus2]

Look at the other post I just placed. God says clearly that a vast multitude will go away into eternal punishment.

But Catholic Daddy my question was simply to you. Would YOU create human beings just so YOU can send them to hell?

Just a simple yes or no. Please, I would really like your answer.

And another question: Do you believe that God is love?

Romans says He is the Potter and so he can make one pot for destruction and another for glory. He says that there. This is very serious business.

Well I suggest you read the rest of Romans 9 particular verses 23-26.

God’s power and justice should always be approached from the vantage point of God’s love.

As I have said in another thread. We must read Scripture but we must employ that faculty called reason, that God himself gave us when we read Scripture.

And I do believe God punished Him in our place. Read Isaiah 53. “It pleased the Father to bruise Him”.

That does not mean that God punished Him. This is what happens when you start reading bits and pieces of Scripture.

Once you start approaching Scripture from the concept of God’s wrath then you get this diabolical god who punishes the sinless.

Sadly this is the vantage point of protestant thinking. You often here them talk about God’s power, God’s justice but rarely ever about God’s love.

Why? Unfathomable love for us. It was the only way a holy Judge could stay just, and yet let sinners go free. Someone had to pay the penalty. So “He who knew no sin BECAME sin, that we might become the righteousness of God.”!!!

Yes, yes, yes. Unfathomable love for us! Would such a God with an unfathomable love for us then create millions of people just to burn them in hell?

Did He love us only after Christ’s sacrificial death or was His love there from the beginning, which is why He died for us?

 

[benedictus2]

Scripture says that people like Aberaham were also saved by faith in the promises of God. “Abraham believed God and it was counted to him as righteousness,”

But since you say that faith alone in Christ is necessary for salvation and they did not know Christ much less profess Him as their Lord and Saviour then how can they be counted as righteous.

That rather puts you in a quandary doesn’t it. One verse says faith in Christ is what saves, another says they are also saved even though they never knew Christ. You are then left pitting one verse of the Bible against another.

So which one is correct?

 

[catholic_daddy]

I’m fairly certain if I died tonight I would go to heaven eventually because I made a good Confession two weeks ago and haven’t fallen into mortal sin since…seeing as how I believe in Purgatory and all, I GUARANTEE you I am going there first.

Your statement that God wants me to know whether or not I’m going to heaven…? I’m guessing you have a scriptural basis for this idea.

What I am about to say will be different from what you’ve been taught, but it is what tens of millions of Christians enjoy. I believe that when Christ died He paid for EVERY one of my sins. I had not done any of them yet. Paul says in Colossians that He “cancelled out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us.”. In God’s ‘court’ there was a document afainst me, so to speak. When Jesus died, one of the last things He said was “it is finished”. In His language that was simply a common business word that meant “paid in full”. Once He had hung on that cross, the ENTIRE debt that we owed to God for our life of sin was PAId IN FULL! Now Jesus says this to you–Hear it well: “Truly truly I say to you-He who hears my words and believes on Him who sent me has eternal lif and WILL NOT COME INTO CONDEMNATION, but has passed from death unto life” --John 5:24

That’s why I know for sure I am going to heaven.

 

[Bramble]

But since you say that faith alone in Christ is necessary for salvation and they did not know Christ much less profess Him as their Lord and Saviour then how can they be counted as righteous.

Salvation has always been by grace alone, through faith alone, in God alone.

 

[ncgolf]

What I am about to say will be different from what you’ve been taught, but it is what tens of millions of Christians enjoy. I believe that when Christ died He paid for EVERY one of my sins. I had not done any of them yet. Paul says in Colossians that He “cancelled out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us.”. In God’s ‘court’ there was a document afainst me, so to speak. When Jesus died, one of the last things He said was “it is finished”. In His language that was simply a common business word that meant “paid in full”. Once He had hung on that cross, the ENTIRE debt that we owed to God for our life of sin was PAId IN FULL! Now Jesus says this to you–Hear it well: “Truly truly I say to you-He who hears my words and believes on Him who sent me has eternal lif and WILL NOT COME INTO CONDEMNATION, but has passed from death unto life” --John 5:24

That’s why I know for sure I am going to heaven.

I hear you say then you bear no personal responsibility for the sins you commit … especially after professing total faith to Christ Jesus.

If you believe, totally and with every fiber of your being, you would not sin … for sin is contrary to all Christ is. I question your total belief then … if you do indeed commit sin.

This is not a business transaction … Christianity is not an transactional based theology … that is why it is a Covenant not a contract.

 

[catholic_daddy]

But since you say that faith alone in Christ is necessary for salvation and they did not know Christ much less profess Him as their Lord and Saviour then how can they be counted as righteous.

That rather puts you in a quandary doesn’t it. One verse says faith in Christ is what saves, another says they are also saved even though they never knew Christ. You are then left pitting one verse of the Bible against another.

So which one is correct?

I was just quoting Paul there. The common teaching is that those in the OT had faith in the coming Messiah. Do you know if that is consistent with wah the RCC teaches?

 

[catholic_daddy]

I hear you say then you bear no personal responsibility for the sins you commit … especially after professing total faith to Christ Jesus.

If you believe, totally and with every fiber of your being, you would not sin … for sin is contrary to all Christ is. I question your total belief then … if you do indeed commit sin.

This is not a business transaction … Christianity is not an transactional based theology … that is why it is a Covenant not a contract.

But it doesn’t work that way! And that is the “scandal” of grace, so to speak. When a person understands that God has truly paid for ALL their sins and made them His child forever, the opposite happens! They want to serve Him. If you follow Paul’s teaching and dare to believe it, you will see this is the truth. And guess what? The system of controlling someone’s behavior by threat of punishment has NEVER WORKED! That is Law, and it didn’t work. The NT clearly teaches that.

 

[ncgolf]

But it doesn’t work that way! And that is the “scandal” of grace, so to speak. When a person understands that God has truly paid for ALL their sins and made them His child forever, the opposite happens! They want to serve Him. If you follow Paul’s teaching and dare to believe it, you will see this is the truth.

You never answered the question … reconcile what you said with your personal sin and any responsibility you bear for it.

I do understand Paul’s teaching but not the Paul you believe … I do not recognize that man.

The system of controlling someone’s behavior by threat of punishment has NEVER WORKED! That is Law, and it didn’t work. The NT clearly teaches that.

Explain further … your statement has a lot in it … system, law, punishment … so your comment is not easily responded to as I have no idea what it means.

 

[catholic_daddy]

I hear you say then you bear no personal responsibility for the sins you commit … especially after professing total faith to Christ Jesus.

If you believe, totally and with every fiber of your being, you would not sin … for sin is contrary to all Christ is. I question your total belief then … if you do indeed commit sin.

This is not a business transaction … Christianity is not an transactional based theology … that is why it is a Covenant not a contract.

Its hard to ignore all the verses on the subject. I don’t have time at the moment. The word “Propitiation”, used in the NT means “the turning away of wrath through the payment of a price”. That is what He did.

 

[ncgolf]

Its hard to ignore all the verses on the subject. I don’t have time at the moment. The word “Propitiation”, used in the NT means “the turning away of wrath through the payment of a price”. That is what He did.

… no hurry … we are all busy … but you can use your own words …

 

[elvisman]

One has to read that Creed in question, in its original language, to understand how much of its meaning has literally been lost in translation.

The English translation of that Creed does support that interpretation. To call the claim an unsubstantiated lie, is to admit that one knows not the Creeds of Christendom.

The other datapoint is that both Orthodox Christianity, and Catholic Christianity have gone through periods of time when it was acceptable for laity to either read, or study the Bible, and when it was unacceptable for the laity to either read, or study the Bible. During periods of the latter, it becomes very easy for non-clergy to conclude that it is a sin for the laity to read the Bible.

jonathon

"…very easy for non-clergy to conclude that it is a sin for the laity to read the Bible"?
There we go again with Protestant assumptions. The fact is - it wasn’t considered a mortal sin as you claimed and I already laid out why it was prohibited - but you can’t accept that.

 

[elvisman]

Elvisman has spoken (that ol’ hound dog), and the case is closed.

Nope - the Church has spoken and the case is closed. My word means nothing if it is in opposition to the Church.

 

[elvisman]

You make it easy, Elvis. Tell Paul and Peter all these past perfect and past tenses support what you are saying. OR…you could feast on them and enter into what they offer you!

II Cor 1
21 Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and has anointed us is God, 22 who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.

Eph 1- (All past tense—DONE!)
11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, 12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory. 13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

Eph 2—(notice past tense—DONE)
1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
Titus 3:5-- He saved us, (past tense) not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration (done) and renewing (done) by the Holy Spirit,
*
I Peter 1—
3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade— kept in heaven for you, 5 who through faith are shielded by God’s power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.
*
22 Now that you have purified yourselves by obeying the truth so that you have sincere love for your brothers, love one another deeply, from the heart. 23 For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

You have fallen into the typical, uneducated Protestant mistake. This is not to say that there aren’t educated Protestants - I know several.

You must take ALL of scripture in context. This is why athiests always say the the Bible is filled with contradiction - because they, like you, don**'t understand scripture. They don’t know how to read it in context.**

At first glance, the passages I supplied to you would seem contradictory. On the contrary, they are complimentary.
Being born again is not being saved - as in “sanctified” That can only happen if you endure to the end (end, meaning physical death).

---

All these passages reaffirm our hope - not our sanctification.

 

[catholic_daddy]

But Catholic Daddy my question was simply to you. Would YOU create human beings just so YOU can send them to hell?

Just a simple yes or no. Please, I would really like your answer.

And another question: Do you believe that God is love?

Well I suggest you read the rest of Romans 9 particular verses 23-26.

God’s power and justice should always be approached from the vantage point of God’s love.

As I have said in another thread. We must read Scripture but we must employ that faculty called reason, that God himself gave us when we read Scripture.

That does not mean that God punished Him. This is what happens when you start reading bits and pieces of Scripture.

Once you start approaching Scripture from the concept of God’s wrath then you get this diabolical god who punishes the sinless.

Sadly this is the vantage point of protestant thinking. You often here them talk about God’s power, God’s justice but rarely ever about God’s love.

Yes, yes, yes. Unfathomable love for us! Would such a God with an unfathomable love for us then create millions of people just to burn them in hell?

Did He love us only after Christ’s sacrificial death or was His love there from the beginning, which is why He died for us?

It has been said that most heresy begins with a wrong view of God. So we must begin by understanding who He is. That’s a life-long task,eh! But we know this: he has attributes that have always been his nature and ALWAYS will be. He is BOTH JUST and LOVING, and he CANNOT ever do anything to violate either of those parts of his nature. We get into trouble when we start to say what WE would do if WE were in that situation. God says his ways are far above our ways, as high as the heavens are above the earth. “Past finding out” He says in Isaiah. Scripture CLEARLY teaches that multitudes will spend eternity in hell. I wish it wasn’t so. But God provided a way to satisfy BOTH his love and his Justice. That way was the cross, where the sinless Son of God took our sins upon himself and died in our place.

“For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that WHOSOEVER BELIEVES on him WILL NOT PERISH but will have everlasting life!”

 

[broski234]

I have addressed virtually all those vss already. But you don’t care. I feel sorry for you. You’re in for a rough road! Just don’t let us catch you singing that g hymn, “Blessed Assurance”. You have none! Get your scissors out and remove those vss from your Bible. They are not for you!

So you don’t think these verses speak of losing ones salvation? That’s nuts!

 

[broski234]

What I am about to say will be different from what you’ve been taught, but it is what tens of millions of Christians enjoy. I believe that when Christ died He paid for EVERY one of my sins. I had not done any of them yet. Paul says in Colossians that He “cancelled out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us.”. In God’s ‘court’ there was a document afainst me, so to speak. When Jesus died, one of the last things He said was “it is finished”. In His language that was simply a common business word that meant “paid in full”. Once He had hung on that cross, the ENTIRE debt that we owed to God for our life of sin was PAId IN FULL! Now Jesus says this to you–Hear it well: “Truly truly I say to you-He who hears my words and believes on Him who sent me has eternal lif and WILL NOT COME INTO CONDEMNATION, but has passed from death unto life” --John 5:24

That’s why I know for sure I am going to heaven.

Well, I hate to burst your bubble, but “it is finished” has everything to do with the Fourth Cup. And Catholics do believe Jesus paid the price for all man’s sins. But, when we sin, we are not in Christ Jesus anymore. We, therefore, need to repent and confess our sins before God and man (priest). By the way, you haven’t addressed my last two posts. I would appreciate if you would do so.