A Historical Dare to Protestants

[Patrick_Murebil]

Historically, that is, according to the Bible, people are only “born again” one way. The baptism is a public declaration of being born again; but it does not, in and of itself make one “born again.”

Jesus was quite clear:
Through Peter, we are told equally as clear:

Can anyone show us a history more accurate than this? Is it possible that BOTH Catholics and Protestants have/can do this even though they retain their distinctive beliefs? I don’t see anything in “history” to indicate otherwise.

Hi Protestant101,

Here is something from the Bible, which is also history, that is more accurate.

Baptism is more than just a “public declaration” of being born again…it is part of being born again. The second part involves the Spirit.

**John 3:4"How can a man be born when he is old?" Nicodemus asked. “Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother’s womb to be born!”

5Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.**

being born of water is equal to being born of the Spirit…according to Jesus…the two are essential in answering Nicodemus’ question…as well as as ours!!

God bless all!!!

 

[catholic_daddy]

Hi Protestant101,

Here is something from the Bible, which is also history, that is more accurate.

Baptism is more than just a “public declaration” of being born again…it is part of being born again. The second part involves the Spirit.

John 3:4"How can a man be born when he is old?" Nicodemus asked. “Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother’s womb to be born!”

5Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.

being born of water is equal to being born of the Spirit…according to Jesus…the two are essential in answering Nicodemus’ question…as well as as ours!!

God bless all!!!

What you are saying is in fact a fatal error. IN NO WAY is being born of the Spirit the same as being born of water. To believe that is to doom yourself to eternal consequences that you do not want!!
At the very least, you need to understand this: Nicodemus was confused and thought Jesus was talking about going through another physical birth-“How can a man be born when he is old?”
Jesus clarified by saying “that which is born of flesh is flesh and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit”. Then he said you have to be born of water AND the Spirit. If you want to call being born of water, Baptismn go ahead. I don’t. BUT, He said you have to have that AND Spirit baptism. That is something that only happens through repentance AND saving faith in Christ’s once and for all death on the cross for your sins.

 

[catholic_daddy]

Well, I hate to burst your bubble, but “it is finished” has everything to do with the Fourth Cup. And Catholics do believe Jesus paid the price for all man’s sins. But, when we sin, we are not in Christ Jesus anymore. We, therefore, need to repent and confess our sins before God and man (priest). By the way, you haven’t addressed my last two posts. I would appreciate if you would do so.

I feel for you. Once a man is literally born of God’s Spirit and placed in Christ, everything has changed FOREVER. We don’t jump in and out of Christ when we siin. You have a very low view of what it means to be “In Christ”. I can’t help you.

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

Clever. You have way too much time on your hands. I only read a third of your post, but enough to give you the answer you crave. I talked to a friend of min two days ago who was a Catholic for years. He described how at confession the priest would perscribe three Hail Mary’s for this and four for that. Then he’d rattle them off. That’s actually beside the point. It was free color for you.
BUT…Penance is perscribed and absolution comes once the penance is done. That system undermines not only Scripture, which says “If we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from ALl unrighteosness.” (PERIOD!)…but it also undermines the doctrine of the atonement, because I guarantee you the average Roman Catholic feels HE is atoning for his own sin.

No, actually I don’t have enough time so I’m going to have to make this replay to your shorter than what I desire.

So now you are basing your understanding of The Church’s teaching regarding confession and reconcilliation on one of your friends? I am glad to see that you acknowledge your mis-understanding of Catholic beliefs on more “realistic” numbers now!!

But what your friend described to you is not what I was taught and is not how I approah confession and reconcilliation.

I do love the verse you quoted above, but am disappointed that you proclaim “PERIOD” so soon, since there are soooooo many scriptures that talk about repentance, penance, and doing good and bearing good fruit.

James 5:15-17; Matthew 3:5-7; Mark 1:4-6; Acts 19:17-19; Matthew 3:1-3; Matthew 3:7-9; Matthew 3:10-12; Matthew 4:16-18; Matthew 11:19-21; Matthew 21:31-33; Mark 1:3-5; Mark 1:14-16; Mark 6:11-13; Luke 3:2-4; Luke 3:7-9; Luke 5:31-33; Luke 13:1-3; Luke 13:2-4; Luke 13:4-6; Luke 15:6-8; Luke 15:9-11; Luke 16:29-31; Luke 17:2-4; Luke 17:3-5; Luke 24:46-48; Acts 2:38;
Acts 2:37-39; Acts 3:18-20; Acts 5:30-32; Acts 8:21-23; Acts 11:17-19; Acts 13:23-25; Acts 17:29-31; Acts 19; Acts 20:20-22;
Acts 26:19-21; Romans 2:3-5; 2 Corinthians 7:8-10; 2 Corinthians 7:9-11; 2 Corinthians 12:20-21; 2 Timothy 2:24-26; Hebrews 6:1-3; Hebrews 6:5-7; 2 Peter 3:8-10; Revelation 2:4-6; Revelation 2:15-17; Revelation 2:20-22; Revelation 2:21-23; Revelation 3:2-4; Revelation 3:18-20; Revelation 9:19-21; Revelation 16:8-10; Revelation 16:10-12; 2 Corinthians 9:7-9; Colossians 1:9-11; Matthew 3:9-11; Matthew 7:16-20; Matthew 12:32-34; Luke 3:8-10; Luke 6:42-44; Galatians 5:21-23; Ephesians 5:8-10; Colossians 1:9-11; James 3:16-18

God bless all!!!

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

If you want to call being born of water, Baptismn go ahead. I don’t. BUT, He said you have to have that AND Spirit baptism. That is something that only happens through repentance AND saving faith in Christ’s once and for all death on the cross for your sins.

I totally agree with what Jesus said that a man must be born of water AND the Spirit to enter the Kingdom of God.

What do you think being born of water means, if not baptism?

God bless all!!!

 

[catholic_daddy]

So you don’t think these verses speak of losing ones salvation? That’s nuts!

Absolutely not.

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

Do you really think you’re that strong? You have no guarantee that you are, my friend, and therefor no blessed Assurance. How good do you think you have to be? I’m trying to help. Sometimes I think Roman Catholics just settle for…"Oh well, I’ll just spend a few thousand years in purgatory and then go to heaven. How sad and misguided if that is the case. Do you know for sure you’re born again?

You are almost funny. First you tell me that I cannot sing the hymn Blessed Assurance (I suppose that is because I’m Catholic), and then I tell you that I can and do have God’s blessed assurance and why I have that, and then you tell me that I don’t.

And no it is not my strength that gives me my assurance. Make no mistake about it, it is God’s strength, and mercy, and grace given to me a sinner, out of His great love!!!

I will share something with you from my tradition which sums this up the best. It is tradition from my childhood and it is just as true today.

Jesus loves me this I know.
For the Bible tells me so.
Little ones to Him belong.
I am weak, but He is strong.
Yes Jesus loves me!
The Bible tells me so!

God bless all!!!

 

[allhers]

No I believe it is about as often in the RCC as it is outside, which is not a lot in my humble opinion. I think most get baptized or confirmed or join a church without having experienced actual salvation.

May I ask HOW did you experience actual salvation?

 

[elvisman]

Absolutely not.

I really feel sorry for you, then because you just don’t get it.
You can be as smug and prideful as you want on this forum - BUT, you can’t be when you are judged by God.

OSAS is an invention of men and has absolutely no basis in Scripture or within the historic Christian faith.

 

[allhers]

Titus 3:5-8
5
not because of any righteous deeds we had done but because of his mercy, he saved us through the bath of rebirth and renewal by the holy Spirit,
6
whom he richly poured out on us through Jesus Christ our savior,
7
**so that we might be justified by his grace and become heirs in hope of eternal life. **
8
This saying is trustworthy. 3 I want you to insist on these points, that those who have believed in God be careful to devote themselves to good works; these are excellent and beneficial to others.

Now why would we have to HOPE of eternal life if we already had it, according to you, catholic daddy?

 

[Bramble]

You have fallen into the typical, uneducated Protestant mistake. This is not to say that there aren’t educated Protestants - I know several.

You must take ALL of scripture in context. This is why athiests always say the the Bible is filled with contradiction - because they, like you, don**'t** understand scripture. They don’t know how to read it in context.

C’mon dude, any study, understanding or interpretation of scripture you have is dictated to you by your church.

**That’s not understanding scripture. **:nope:

 

[catholic_daddy]

No, actually I don’t have enough time so I’m going to have to make this replay to your shorter than what I desire.

So now you are basing your understanding of The Church’s teaching regarding confession and reconcilliation on one of your friends? I am glad to see that you acknowledge your mis-understanding of Catholic beliefs on more “realistic” numbers now!!

But what your friend described to you is not what I was taught and is not how I approah confession and reconcilliation.

I do love the verse you quoted above, but am disappointed that you proclaim “PERIOD” so soon, since there are soooooo many scriptures that talk about repentance, penance, and doing good and bearing good fruit.

James 5:15-17; Matthew 3:5-7; Mark 1:4-6; Acts 19:17-19; Matthew 3:1-3; Matthew 3:7-9; Matthew 3:10-12; Matthew 4:16-18; Matthew 11:19-21; Matthew 21:31-33; Mark 1:3-5; Mark 1:14-16; Mark 6:11-13; Luke 3:2-4; Luke 3:7-9; Luke 5:31-33; Luke 13:1-3; Luke 13:2-4; Luke 13:4-6; Luke 15:6-8; Luke 15:9-11; Luke 16:29-31; Luke 17:2-4; Luke 17:3-5; Luke 24:46-48; Acts 2:38;
Acts 2:37-39; Acts 3:18-20; Acts 5:30-32; Acts 8:21-23; Acts 11:17-19; Acts 13:23-25; Acts 17:29-31; Acts 19; Acts 20:20-22;
Acts 26:19-21; Romans 2:3-5; 2 Corinthians 7:8-10; 2 Corinthians 7:9-11; 2 Corinthians 12:20-21; 2 Timothy 2:24-26; Hebrews 6:1-3; Hebrews 6:5-7; 2 Peter 3:8-10; Revelation 2:4-6; Revelation 2:15-17; Revelation 2:20-22; Revelation 2:21-23; Revelation 3:2-4; Revelation 3:18-20; Revelation 9:19-21; Revelation 16:8-10; Revelation 16:10-12; 2 Corinthians 9:7-9; Colossians 1:9-11; Matthew 3:9-11; Matthew 7:16-20; Matthew 12:32-34; Luke 3:8-10; Luke 6:42-44; Galatians 5:21-23; Ephesians 5:8-10; Colossians 1:9-11; James 3:16-18

God bless all!!!

One of the chief problems is in the God-forsaken notion that any atoning value lies in those acts of ‘penence’.

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

C’mon dude, any study, understanding or interpretation of scripture you have is dictated to you by your church.

That’s not understanding scripture. :nope:

Are you saying that your study, understanding, or interpretation of scripture had nothing to do with your church…or any church?

God bless all!!!

 

[catholic_daddy]

I really feel sorry for you, then because you just don’t get it.
You can be as smug and prideful as you want on this forum - BUT, you can’t be when you are judged by God.

OSAS is an invention of men and has absolutely no basis in Scripture or within the historic Christian faith.

If you read my recent posts here you will know I am neither casual nor smug about my salvation. The most powerful and effective preachers I know of, and the most godly people I know–all hold to that doctrine. Most importantly it is the only position that can harmonize all the scriptures. The opposite view paints, I believe, a low view of God and his love. And you have zero Blessed Assurance. That’s all I’ll say to you about it.

 

[allhers]

If you read my recent posts here you will know I am neither casual nor smug about my salvation. The most powerful and effective preachers I know of, and the most godly people I know–all hold to that doctrine. Most importantly it is the only position that can harmonize all the scriptures. The opposite view paints, I believe, a low view of God and his love. And you have zero Blessed Assurance. That’s all I’ll say to you about it.

Could you name these most “godly” (notice your small g) and most powerful and effective preachers?

 

[NDfan]

If you read my recent posts here you will know I am neither casual nor smug about my salvation. The most powerful and effective preachers I know of, and the most godly people I know–all hold to that doctrine. Most importantly it is the only position that can harmonize all the scriptures. The opposite view paints, I believe, a low view of God and his love. And you have zero Blessed Assurance. That’s all I’ll say to you about it.

Catholic I know what you are saying and after reading all the back and forth here I think the conversation can be summed up pretty easily.

I agree with you that we have to be able to be sure of our salvation otherwise we’d be questioning the promise of Christ. But I also understand what Elvis and others are saying as well. We can be sure of our salvation in Christ if we maintain our faith in Christ. But as Paul tells us in Romans we can’t then continue to live in sin to show more of God’s grace. That’s trying to serve 2 masters which can’t be done. But GOD also understands that no matter how hard we try to live our lives dedicated to Christ we end up committing sin. But sin should not be what characterizes our lives and we always need to seek forgiveness.

With regard to losing salvation, if I live my life dedicated to Christ but then suddenly develop doubts and start living a life dominated by sin then I can’t really be sure of my salvation can I?? Suppose I go and commit adultery over and over again? This would show a lack of repentance on my part which to me is a rejection of Christ. If I die in that state I’ve basically rejected what Christ asked me to do to have eternal life.

If I live my life dedicated to Christ and try my hardest to repent of my sinful ways, always seeking GOD’s forgiveness then I feel pretty confident that if I died at that point I would have eternal life with Christ. Growing up in the Catholic church I was always taught this message. I was never taught that my salvation was in jeopardy if I kept Christ’s commands and I don’t think others are trying to say that.

PEACE brother

 

[catholic_daddy]

You are almost funny. First you tell me that I cannot sing the hymn Blessed Assurance (I suppose that is because I’m Catholic), and then I tell you that I can and do have God’s blessed assurance and why I have that, and then you tell me that I don’t.

And no it is not my strength that gives me my assurance. Make no mistake about it, it is God’s strength, and mercy, and grace given to me a sinner, out of His great love!!!

I will share something with you from my tradition which sums this up the best. It is tradition from my childhood and it is just as true today.

Jesus loves me this I know.
For the Bible tells me so.
Little ones to Him belong.
I am weak, but He is strong.
Yes Jesus loves me!
The Bible tells me so!

God bless all!!!

My assurance is based on God’s promise to keep me for eternity. Yours is ultimately based on your own strength! Which sounds like a better deal?
The more important issue for you is to question yourself as to whether you have truly trusted in the cross of Christ and the FREE gift provided there. God will not let us have salvation if we are trying to earn it. God Bless

 

[ncgolf]

My assurance is based on God’s promise to keep me for eternity. Yours is ultimately based on your own strength! Which sounds like a better deal?
The more important issue for you is to question yourself as to whether you have truly trusted in the cross of Christ and the FREE gift provided there. God will not let us have salvation if we are trying to earn it. God Bless

Even if I bought a ticket! … rats.

 

[catholic_daddy]

Could you name these most “godly” (notice your small g) and most powerful and effective preachers?

FYI, when you use the word as an adjective to describe a mere mortal, it is ‘godly’ with a small ‘g’.
Anyway…to start with, how about Billy Graham, Rick Warren, Bill Hybels, Charles Stanley, Charles Swindoll, R C Sproul, John MacArthur, Adrian Rogers, W A Criswell, Vance Havner, James Boyce, Franklin Graham, O S Hawkins, Jim Henry, John Bisagno, Junior Hill, James Kennedy…if you care, ALL of those guys are VERY pro-life, though it has nothing to do with this conversation.

 

[elvisman]

C’mon dude, any study, understanding or interpretation of scripture you have is dictated to you by your church.

That’s not understanding scripture. :nope:

**That is understanding Scripture better than you because the church is the custodian of the Scriptures. She is the pillar and foundation of truth (1 Timothy 3:15). **

All authority on heaven and earth was given to the Church because Jesus said so (Matt 16:19, 18:18, John 16:14-15, 20:22-23). ALL Authority - not just some.
**That’s the one unfortunate thing that the prideful and stubborn mind of the anti-Catholic will never understand. **

ALL authority - you have none.